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Why is SSD in PS5 made to look like a game changer? PC’s have had it for decade and it hasn’t made that much difference?

Smerdyakov

Member
Nov 13, 2017
196
Because in the console space going from 5400RPM mechanical drives to SSDs is an enormous improvement.
 

shark97

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,701
You can buy a Crucial P1 1 TB Nvme Pci Express x 4 for 95 dollars, which is a fast drive but still average or below compared to other brands like Samsung Evos. Sony PR is promising the fastest SSD speeds ever. Not going to happen.

Read all the other posts. maybe not in raw theoretical speed but in practical terms.

Consoles can have special hardware and software considerations, target one spec. Consoles only do one thing, play video games. You can bet smart people can leverage that.

If there's some kind of special interface in PS5, then yeah maybe it could have THE fastest

Also the thread title is still making me chuckle. Not much difference? I wouldn't ever buy a PC or laptop without an SSD for at least 5 years now. Given acceptable specs in other areas, It's the single best upgrade for everyday performance you can do. That's well established.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,054
Philadelphia, PA
This MH video is quite the answer to the thread.
I wonder how many folks are going to ignore and simply handwave it as "marketing hype" and downplay the significance of much an NVMe SSD vastly decreases loading times. The average read speeds of a 7200RPM HDD are 120MB/s.

Some NVMe SSD drives (such as the Samsung 970 Evo Plus) have confirmed read speeds of 3.5GB/s.
3500 / 120 = 29 times faster. To say this isn't significant is showcase of ignorance.

Webpages load faster, the OS boots quicker, screen transitions end faster, It's pure speed improvements all in all.

This just a example of between HDD / Sata / NVMe on PC.

A Console with 4th revision of PCIe controlling its bus speed and not limited to SATA III is substantial and is in no way a minor upgrade.
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
373
Oslo, Norway
Even if it's a super fast NVMe next gen SSD I still have doubts about the ability of the system to process that amount of data. This is somewhat evidenced by many PC benchmarks that shows gaming load times are significantly improved going from HDD to SSD, but show little improvement going to NVME SSD.
That's beause PCIe 3.0 as seen in most PCs does not offer those huge improvements over SATA with the current random access file storage on PCs. AMD's X570 chipset was recently released with PCIe 4.0 support, offering much higher sustained read and write speeds.
PS5 will obviously use a custom storage/game install format designed for sustained reads with little to no random access. Expect more than 5GB/s read speeds as opposed to 500MB/s to 1GB/s max from random access reads on PC. Depending on whether they use a custom chipset for PCIe 4.0 or not, it might be even higher than that for burst speeds.
 

Rion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,021
Check a look!

Path of Exile with a SSD makes it feel like a faster loading Diablo 3, and Diablo 3 already felt like magic with how fast it loaded (PC) zones. Path of Exile must be played with SSD and the Standalone version not Steam (patching takes so long on steam since it allocates such a big file before patching a 20mb hotfix for example).
It really is a game changer.

It's always amusing to see some PC gamers rush to call the new consoles "weak" or their features "just buzzwords" etc...

With an 8 core / 16 thread Ryzen CPU, around 15tflops of GPU compute power (RDNA) and the fastest SSD on the market they must be sweating this time around ;)
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,303
Portugal
Pc user that upgraded to a crappy nvme ssd here (intel 660p) from an 5400 HDD.
The difference between my cheap sad to an HDD is extremely brutal. Games such as ck2, EU IV, total war, cities skylines, fallout 4 and surviving mars went from having loadings that lasted a couple of mins to loadings that take a few seconds or 1 min.
Here are some of my concrete examples:
  • Warhammer total war took me 4 to 6 mins to load a campaign. Now it takes 1 min
  • Fallout 4 took 8 to 15 mins to load, now it takes a 3 mins
  • Ck2, Hoi IV EU IV and stellaris took 3 mins to start up, now they take a few seconds.
I find it weird OP doesn't consider these gains significant. It literally allows more game time.
 

klier

Member
Oct 29, 2017
538
What ? I remember my first SSD on PC, I couldn't believe how fast it was compared to my previous harddrive.

The premise of this thread is so wrong...
I am afraid you and many others here don't get the premise.

When something is default it's going to to be used in game design, not just faster loading.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,680
North Carolina
Its funny because I want my consoles to last as many years as possible but Im a PC gamer primarily and a new console means a huge step up for PC gaming because consoles push the base standards of hardware and software.
 

VFX_Veteran

Member
Nov 11, 2017
950
Well, it's either trolling or...
My point is, because the consoles have finally caught up with the PC reading a disc media doesn't mean that their hardware is suddenly going to be a game-changer for the PC gamers that are already using SSD drives now. So it's really only GREAT news for the console players.
 

Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,129
If nothing else, it will make hard games more bearable when you keep dying. It’s painful constantly looking at that load screen in a Souls game when you’re stuck on a boss.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,456
New Jersey
Developers are able to take advantage of SSD's in game design when there is a big enough of a market share of gaming industry that actually has SSD's as standardized hardware. Its the same every gen, and why PC's rarely if ever have games that take advantage of the highest end. Many PC users dont even use SSD's, let alone consoles at this point, and so they stay as a relatively niche thing that can make load times faster but not much else.

Saying otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of how games are made and target hardware. HDD's have been a bottleneck to game design just like CPU, RAM and GPU limitations are when it comes to designing games that have to target everything especially with the consoles specifically in mind.

Basically...

Because consoles are the baseline for multiplatform titles therefore it's console limitations that dictate game design.
This.

Marketing. Bullet point buzz words. Ignorance.

Because the PS4 Pro and XB1X already undercut performance improvements of next gen consoles.
And not this. These kinds of posts have zero credibility.
 

Bunzy

Member
Nov 1, 2018
591
The ssd being integrated into the system architecture is going to be a totally diff setup then how it is on pc.
 

molnizzle

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,308
The entire premise of this thread is wrong.

SSD has been by far the most impactful PC upgrade of the past decade.
 

Raonak

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,234
You forget about the Switch. Devs will still have to cater for them one way or another.
I really don't think many full next-gen games will be having a switch SKU.
They're more likely to port the PS4 versions of games over to switch.

Even then, exclusives will still make the most of the hardware advantages.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,843
Marketing. Bullet point buzz words. Ignorance.
Well this is rich.

Unfounded, ignorant cynicism.

SSDs as the baseline have huge implications for game development. Games can literally be freed up immensely in how they are designed without always having to account for slow laptop hard drives that have been commonplace for over a decade. No more elevators. No more weird long corridors to hide loading. No more literally having to limit player speed because the game can't load in assets quick enough. Having an SSD today doesn't change design decisions made with slow hard drives in mind. With those out of the picture, things can change dramatically. Your actual experience can now change. Calling it nothing but a bullet point is astoundingly ignorant, which is like...really funny.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,843
Then why is it that only playstation is getting the press about it?

Oh yeah... Bias.
Except the Xbox has been, but right now Sony just confirmed the new console, so people are talking about that.

Your conspiracy bullshit is tiresome dude. Like, coming from someone who gets really tired of Sony fan boys personally, you're being worse. This is silly.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,907
When the title is already so wrong it's almost best to close the thread or edit its title.

Going from HDDs to SSDs on PCs is/was factually one of the best improvements ever. I still recommend every PC user without an SSD to upgrade to one azap.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,813
Then why is it that only playstation is getting the press about it?

Oh yeah... Bias.
Good grief. The reason they are getting press about it is because they are talking about it. The thread title only saying Sony is pretty dumb, when both MS and Sony will have them.

You also quoted someone who is completely off base about what a standard SSD means for the next-gen consoles.

So again, laughable.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,674
I doubt there will be much difference,
right now if load time on HDD is 50s, SSD can be 10s, NVMe would be 9 or 8s,
it would be a big leap if they are cut in half for next gen development, but I really doubt it. we will see.
I was thinking maybe redundant data would be a thing of the past, but unfortunately PC won't be like the next gen consoles, and devs will want to make sure PC players using HDDs wouldn't have a horrible experience.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,456
New Jersey
Anyone attempting to argue that SSD's in next gen are not a big shift in game design for developers at large are being intentionally obtuse of the facts to suit a false narrative they have.

Its also funny when it comes from the same PC players who extol the virtues of PC gaming and SSD's's superiority over HDD solutions any other time.

What we're talking about is not just making load times slightly faster, and so i'll say it again, anyone who is arguing this to be the case is acting ignorant on purpose.
 

Amauri14

Member
Oct 27, 2017
875
Danbury, CT, USA
Because now developers will be able to design their games without worrying about the speed limit of a slow hard drive. That's why is also great that the PS5 is using a Zen2, as that will mean better multi-core support for those games on PC.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,843
This smug dismissal being so pervasive is kind of really funny to me.

"Ah yes," *stirs tea*, "everything is marketing and it is stupid. Nothing is good or has any effect. We are all being lied to. Ha, I am so smart. SSDs will do nothing but shave off a few seconds of loading. You enthusiastic fools. This is nothing to get excited about."

EDIT: ^ Lol and there it is again.
 

i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
11,915
Not America
It is a game changer for console games. I honestly don't know how people can agree with "marketing. bullet point buzz words. Ignorance". Meh, whatever floats your boats I guess.

If people can be arsed to make an effort, I'd suggest watching Insomniac's GDC presentation pertaining to Spider-man's streaming system design.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,843
I mean it's a big upgrade but at the same time it's whatever, SSDs been readily available.
But who cares if SSDs have already been available if everyone has to design games as if they aren't necessarily.

What about asset duplication making games bigger just so that the spindle on the hard drive doesn't have to go as far and making loading a little faster? What about hallways and elevators and player speed limitations and winding corridors and forced cutscenes designed to mask loading that will no longer be necessary? These aren't all things that can be eliminated today because games are designed to have them, and engines are designed to expect them. So even though we have the hardware to do it, we don't have the games to take advantage of the hardware, because they are being designed for slower hardware.

So cases where it's simply a loading screen, yes you see massive differences. But cases where a game is literally designed around expecting to have slow hardware, with an engine that expects slow hardware, no you don't see massive differences. Once SSDs are the baseline, the latter can essentially be completely eliminated. That's pretty huge considering EVERY GAME has to do this in some way. Devs have just gotta very good at masking it.

And even if none of this was true, load times being slashed like that Monster Hunter example on the first page is huge and it's great that console players will get it (remember that even though SSDs make some difference on consoles today, they are bottle-necked by SATA II for some bizarre reason). The fact that that is only one of the benefits is kind of awesome. Like, that's a benefit we can see now, on a game that wasn't designed to take advantage of SSDs, so all that is changed is the loading time between areas. With games designed around SSDs, we'll see yet another level improvement that will making PC gaming even better, which as a PC gamer, is pretty damn exciting.

If you want to be educated do what I've done and follow actual developers talking about this stuff instead of smug, cynical forum posters.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
6,097
I think you will see the difference when loading times don't affect the design of next gen games. Just from a QOL standpoint it will be immediately noticeable though.
 

nanskee

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,740
But who cares if SSDs have already been available if everyone has to design games as if they aren't necessarily.

What about asset duplication making games bigger just so that the spindle on the hard drive doesn't have to go as far and making loading a little faster? What about hallways and elevators and player speed limitations and winding corridors and forced cutscenes designed to mask loading that will no longer be necessary? These aren't all things that can be eliminated today because games are designed to have them, and engines are designed to expect them. So even though we have the hardware to do it, we don't have the games to take advantage of the hardware, because they are being designed for slower hardware.

So cases where it's simply a loading screen, yes you see massive differences. But cases where a game is literally designed around expecting to have slow hardware, with an engine that expects slow hardware, no you don't see massive differences. Once SSDs are the baseline, the latter can essentially be completely eliminated. That's pretty huge considering EVERY GAME has to do this in some way. Devs have just gotta very good at masking it.

And even if none of this was true, load times being slashed like that Monster Hunter example on the first page is huge and it's great that console players will get it (remember that even though SSDs make some difference on consoles today, they are bottle-necked by SATA II for some bizarre reason). The fact that that is only one of the benefits is kind of awesome. Like, that's a benefit we can see now, on a game that wasn't designed to take advantage of SSDs, so all that is changed is the loading time between areas. With games designed around SSDs, we'll see yet another level improvement that will making PC gaming even better, which as a PC gamer, is pretty damn exciting.

If you want to be educated do what I've done and follow actual developers talking about this stuff instead of smug, cynical forum posters.
Hmm well that sounds pretty major, interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,843
Hmm well that sounds pretty major, interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
Right? See like I feel like this is something to be optimistic about. There will still be people who are disappointed, but I think that if you have a proper understanding of what this involves, it is definitely something to be happy about. I think a lot of Era gets so used to being cynical they don't actually think critically about what's going on.

Like even with the common sense what I knew about load hallways and things, I had no idea about the asset duplication thing until the other day. Games being even smaller is another great plus that maybe isn't the most "exciting" but still great news.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
I'm not sure why the use of an SSD is being downplayed so hard here, mechanical HDDs have been a primary bottleneck on PC for a while now. Mechanical HDDs, at least at the consumer level are near the end of production, especially 2.5" HDDs. Some started ceasing production years ago.


Maybe a bit on the GPU end but definitely not on the CPU front which is where the main "biggest performance jump ever" stuff comes from because the PS4/XBO's netbook CPU is shit.



You can buy a 1TB SSD today for about $100 retail (and probably see some for around $50 next month when major sales come about) and that price will continue to go down as these new consoles release. Check the prices for a 1TB 2.5" 5400RPM or 7200RPM hard drive on Amazon, NewEgg or whatever reliable seller you find, options are becoming limited these days and the price gap isn't nearly as big and in some cases the HDD can cost as much or more than an SSD. The price per GB argument only really holds any water anymore when it comes to 3.5" HDDs since they're still widely available but they're not going to be put into a console and from the sound of things they're going with something NVMe size or smaller instead of the old 2.5" form factor. Besides that, Sony and MS aren't paying anywhere close to retail for their SSDs.

Also, I'll be surprised if any consumer level 2.5" HDDs are still in production by the mid-way point of the next generation. Hell, I'll be surprised if any consumer level HDDs are being produced at all by then.


The biggest selling point comes from data streaming for games with open world and/or large, detailed environments that's been issue with mechanical HDDs as games get bigger/more detailed over the years and have become a bottleneck over the last decade in many cases, even outside of gaming. SSDs can absolutely help frame rates/times in certain situations like off initial loads into a game or whenever storage is being hit and reduce stuttering, Batman Arkham Knight which to be fair, is a bad example because the PC port was shit (but I'm sure someone can come up with a better one) however running the game off an SSD allowed people (including myself) to brute force the severe frame rate killing LOD issues it had. Your examples are games set in relatively small, closed environments so no, outside of load times they probably won't see much impact unless developers go nuts but it's going to still be noticeable it when games take a second to load. GTA V on PC I think it's a good example of seeing the benefits of an SSD vs HDD, especially when moving at higher speeds.

This is about games actually being able to be designed around having an SSD, that's going to make a difference to any game that relies heavily on streaming assets like every open world game. The door opening to being able to do that hundred or however times faster is going to have an impact.

Also, the average user whether it's in a game console or PC is not going to kill an SSD from write cycles. Your HDD is going to more likely fail from mechanical breakdown before you kill an SSD from writing to it too much.
The CPU power increase isn't going to change games as much as people think. It's basically going to drive those lower load times, manage more shit AI code because it's the developers faults that we have bad AI, which is why Fear from last generation still has some of the most convincing AI of any game released.

Deep learning AI via cloud services will probably have a bigger impact on games than the CPU.

SSDs are great for load times, but was N64's no load times a game changer vs Playstation?

What PS5 allows is for more actors on scene with unique AI, so open world games can feel less empty. It can also be used for frame rates above 60 and driving graphics of bigger areas.

Until they show us new stuff the cpu and SSD can do for the actual games, it's just more load times, more actors.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,674
I would love Steam or any other game store launcher thing gave devs the incentive to give PC players the option of downloading a smaller game file designed around SSDs or the HDD version. :(

Getting kind of jealous haha.
 

Villein

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
975
ITT people having no idea what getting rid of slow mechanical HDD as main storage target for devs in favor of PCIe gen 4 nvme SSD means for overall game design (i.e. more than just fast loading screens) Don't compare this to having a SSD in your PC