Why is the DCEU such a failure?

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,586
I think it's because of the comic companies involvement. Marvel comic creators have a lot of input in the movies and are deeply involved as executive producers. I think DC just gives over control to movie makers and they end up butchering the characters.

Marvel movies are more true to the intent and character development of the source material. Because of actual comic creator involvement they are legit comic superhero movies. DC movies have lost creator control and try to be action movies. That"s why Marvel wins and DC fails.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,390
It's like they didn't trust that this whole super-hero movie thing would last this long, so they wanted to hurry up and get the big team-up out there to rake in those Avengers billions
I remember reading something about WB executives and bonuses so they rushed it for $$$.

MoS was a disappointment so they figured BvS should make gangbusters. And JL couldn't possibly fail.

They thought they had a built in audience.

Marvel was stuck with their B-tier properties so they had to build them up and sell them to the crowds. I think in Marvel's early surveys most people thought Iron Man was a robot. So they had a lot of work to do.

Marvel's casting is amazing. RDJ was a brilliant move in hindsight that got them rolling against all conventional wisdom.
 

Patryn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
210
They gave Superman to an admirer of the works of Ayn Rand and ended up with an interpretation of the character that just didn't fit.

The Kents are supposed to teach Clark that he should use his abilities to help people, and that's the reason he has his gifts. Instead we get movies where both Kents try to convince Clark to not help people, and to be selfish.

It has a Superman that looks like he hates every moment where he's helping people, which is the complete opposite of what Superman should be.

Then they rushed to team-ups in BvS, and proceeded to more or less cut Superman's entire story line in the theatrical cut to the point that it feels more like a Batman film that stars Superman as the antagonist, and more or less robs Superman's death of any impact because he's acting like an asshole for most of the film.

Then comes Justice League, and rather than reacting to the negative reaction to BvS they push forward because the execs need their bonuses. But they do panic enough to cut the story of the movie in half and possibly boot Snyder off the film at the eleventh hour because he's making it too dark, bringing Whedon in and making the whole film feel schizophrenic. It doesn't help that the main villain is forgettable beyond belief and is defeated almost single-handedly by Superman, thus questioning why they needed a whole team.

There's also Suicide Squad which was another case of them not understanding the characters, because they take street-level villains and for whatever reason throw them into a super-powered threat situation along with soldiers, thus begging the question again why they even needed the squad.

So basically, they kept forcing characters into films where they didn't fit. They just don't understand them. The films where they get closer to understanding them work a lot better (Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam).
 

MetalMagus

Avenger
Oct 16, 2018
323
Maine
Lot's of good takes in this thread - I agree with most of them, with the root cause being making Zac Snyder the architect of the DCEU.

Ultimately, the biggest stone around the neck of the DCEU is Batman v. Superman. There's just so many BAD decisions in what's supposed to be THE tentpole movie - it's like one of the characters in Chernobyl that took ultra lethal doses of radiation. It doesn't look that bad at first, but by the time the necrosis and organ failure sets in, you know things are beyond saving.

If you've got time to kill Bob Chipman does what's perhaps the ultimate breakdown of what went so wrong with BvS - from conception down to execution. It's like 4 hours long though, so... block out some time.





 

Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,125
Yeah. That had me scratching my head.
They're keeping it going, but not as a consistent "cinematic universe" with a greater cross movie plot, like Marvel does, and they tried to do previously. The Cinematic Universe portion is a total failure.

The movies have improved a lot, so I don't see it as a negative at this point.
 

Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,125
Then comes Justice League, and rather than reacting to the negative reaction to BvS they push forward because the execs need their bonuses. But they do panic enough to cut the story of the movie in half and possibly boot Snyder off the film at the eleventh hour because he's making it too dark, bringing Whedon in and making the whole film feel schizophrenic. It doesn't help that the main villain is forgettable beyond belief and is defeated almost single-handedly by Superman, thus questioning why they needed a whole team.
Also doesn't help when audiences are wondering what the hell is wrong with their most iconic character's face lol. Talk about a distraction.
 

GaimeGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,078
I haven't actually watched the MCU or DCU films outside of 2 or 3, but the animated DC movies and specials are generally amazing. Z. Snyder is clearly the wrong person to call the shots on the DCU. Just from what I've gathered from WoM and general media exposure is that his casting choices are off, the way he depicts most of the characters turn off both casual fans and hardcore audience members, the pacing is poor for the overarching DCU story with everything being made in the wrong order, the foundational films are shaky at best, and the climaxes and lessons of each story are either misinterpretations of the source material or Snyder outright doing his own thing without any care or respect for the core characters he's using. He comes up with a zack snyder character or idea and tries to shove a batman or superman or other DC property into the role.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,523
There is no love of the ip by the people in charge. Feige is a passionate fan of Marvel so we are seeing what he wants to see with the property as a fan and you can tell. The people running DCEU are just after cash.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,134
All the 'big, connected universe' movies were very, very bad. That's why.

Is it thought? Wonder Women, Aquaman, and Shazam are all well-liked.
Those are barely part of the DCEU though.

Wonder Woman had the most links with the framing device being her telling Bruce about her past, but the main story had nothing to do with the DCEU and even before the DCEU crashed and burned the chances of anything in it coming back in a DCEU movie were pretty much none

Aquaman just shared the actors and one reference, the rest was completely separated

Shazam! literally has nothing tying it to the other movies except for some very tongue-in-cheek references
 

El D

Member
Sep 20, 2018
1,449
I don't blame Snyder. I blame WB executives for initially chasing Nolan's trilogy in tone and then pulling a 180 to try and chase the Avengers.
 

Teddy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
916
Instead of a fake alien squid monster attacking the world, it's all Dr Manhattan's fault. The entire reason for it in the comics was because it was a completely third party entity with no Earth based allegiances and thus would unite the world against a common threat. Blaming it all on Dr Manhattan wouldn't solve shit because Manhattan is clearly shown to be a US operative in the movie. If anything the movie ending would trigger the end of the world faster.
I really have to disagree on this.

The comic ending to Watchmen is so unexpected that is actually hurts the overall story.

The ending with Dr Manhattan attacking everyone is ultimately better as it fits in with the films themes of how Dr Manhattan is a god without any bonuds at all. The film ends up playing out in roughly the same way as the comic does but this time instead of Dr Manhattan disappearing for random reasons he actually disappears to maintain the idea that he attacked.

In terms of how the Soviets would perceive things, I doubt they’d ultimately believe the US would go for deception at a level where the US would nuke its own cities, especially considering how careful Ozymandias was to make it believable to both the US and Soviets.
 

lasthope106

Member
Oct 25, 2017
475
Iowa USA
The DC heroes don't work as well in a movie format. Marvel works because it's somewhat comical, DC seems to take itself super seriously and taking a comic book movie seriously seems quite difficult I think.
This. I'm reading the comics and at least the Batman stories are a lot more serious in tone. There are barely any jokes, and if they are it's mostly subtle sarcasm. Some of the comic events for DC are the same. Some characters crack jokes but it's not like Marvel where there is a joke being made every other minute in their movies.
 

gutter_trash

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,098
Montreal
DCEU fails because it doesn't have RDJ, Chris Hemsworth, Tom Hiddleston, Jon Favreau, Samuel L. Jackson.

I know a lot of people hate the stories and writing, but I honestly believe the cast itself is bad and the core problem.

Nolan's Batman movies was awesome because he had fantastic actors in it.

But this Justice League group is mostly awful, save Gal Gadot and Jason MoMoa.

Supes Cavill sucks.

Batffleck sucks.

Lex Eisenberg sucks.

The entire Suicide Squad sucks.

Bad casting is a big problem.
you are downplaying direction too much.

Bad directing goes a long way.

Evans is not a great actor but they ending up making a great Cap out of him.

I believe that a good director could have made Calvill better
 
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DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Member
Mar 4, 2019
849
The humor in JL and SS was cringy AF
Also, miscasting villains like Joker and Lex Luthor
Amazing how much of a flop JL was
 
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DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Member
Mar 4, 2019
849
It's kind of weird. DC superhero movies will keep going but the DCEU as we know it is effectively dead.
  • Cavill is out as Superman and there's no Man of Steel sequels in the works
  • Affleck is out as Batman and that's being essentially rebooted
  • Ezra Miller is supposedly out as Flash and that movie's been stuck in development hell
  • Fisher's contract for Cyborg is going to expire soon
  • Suicide Squad is getting rebooted albeit with a lot of the same cast
Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the only things left.
Flash is out? Aren't SS and the Batman set in the DCEU?
 

Z-Beat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,410
Because they tried to do the MCU in a quarter of the time with no development or interesting villains of any kind
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,186
How did Suicide Squad end up the way it was?
After BvS, WB was panicking. The first Suicide Squad trailer was pretty grimdark like BvS and recived a meh response. But then the second trailer (cut not by the director but by a trailer company) with Bohemian Rhapsody was a smash hit with people. So in an attempt to prevent another BvS, WB had the trailer company completely re-edit the film to have the same light and fun tone as their trailer, hence why the entire movie feels like a 2 hour trailer, because it kinda is...
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,016
They were just shitty movies, with poor writing. They could have started with a team movie, but to do that it needed to be handled with care, and given to people that can write. They chose they easy way, and we got this mess to start the DCEU. However, now it looks like DC is doing much better after JL. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam are good movies. They just need to continue what they are doing.
 

Studge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
618
Lot's of good takes in this thread - I agree with most of them, with the root cause being making Zac Snyder the architect of the DCEU.

Ultimately, the biggest stone around the neck of the DCEU is Batman v. Superman. There's just so many BAD decisions in what's supposed to be THE tentpole movie - it's like one of the characters in Chernobyl that took ultra lethal doses of radiation. It doesn't look that bad at first, but by the time the necrosis and organ failure sets in, you know things are beyond saving.

If you've got time to kill Bob Chipman does what's perhaps the ultimate breakdown of what went so wrong with BvS - from conception down to execution. It's like 4 hours long though, so... block out some time.





Yes, yes, yes, YES! Bob is awesome and people should watch this. He even goes outside BvS in parts to touch on what worked, didn't work, and why in Watchmen, Wonder Woman, and some others for comparison.

I just actually finished a re-watch/listen of all 3 parts between yard work at home and work commutes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,796
Brooklyn, NY
It mainly comes down to a series of poorly thought-out decisions WB made in 2012-2014 in reaction to Marvel Studios' success: retroactively making MoS the start of the DCEU while it was in post-production, giving Snyder control over the two movies that would do the most to set the tone for the rest of the universe, and rushing into a two-film-a-year production schedule that allowed only very limited room to recalibrate the films coming out after BvS based on its reception are the big ones.
 
Oct 27, 2017
555
Failure? Yea, maybe some of the films haven't been great but overall the movies are still making WB lots of money. The only legit failure they've had was JL. Everything else has been profitable.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
1,475
They were bad movies who failed to play to the strengths of the DC comic line.

DC comic characters have always been more archetypal than Marvel comics. A DC Film Series should have gone with this by making the entire thing more Mythological. More Epic in the classical sense. Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman, should have been larger than life.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,708
From a box office perspective, Aquaman and Wonder Woman have been huge hits. Even Suicide Squad really.

BvS and Justice League less so, but both still probably quite profitable.

But I mean

Aquaman - 1.148 billion WW
Wonder Woman - 821 million WW
Suicide Squad - 747 million WW


Stacks up pretty well against Marvel's recent solo stuff

Captain Marvel - 1.127 billion WW
Doctor Strange - 678 billion WW
Ant-Man & The Wasp - 623 million WW


They're doing really well with the non-Batman/Superman stuff. They're just trying to force Superman/Batman too quickly because they wanted their Avengers pay off with out waiting as long.
 
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Sweeney Swift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,049
They tried very hard to just copy Marvel and make a cinematic universe with their own characters, but didn't take the time to think about why it worked and to treat it carefully

They rushed big moments (not even just the rush to a Justice League film; they put a Batman/Superman fight and the creation of Doomsday and the Doomsday fight in a single 45 minute span in another film) and were surprised when the reaction was shrugs and not a billion dollars from either of their biggest efforts

When they actually tried, and took it slow and carefully in a way that made it seem like there might be a long-term plan, and abandoned Snyder Directing, it worked in their favor. They've pulled off a couple of those in a row to their credit, but they've still got a lot of work to do to pull it off long-term to anywhere near the level actual great cinematic universes like MCU and The Conjuring and the original Universal Monsters have done. Jettisoning the actors who played Batman, Superman, and Flash feels like it could easily be significant steps back in terms of quality and success, even as excited and hopeful as I am for Robert Pattinson's portrayal of Bruce
 

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
915
I don't blame Snyder. I blame WB executives for initially chasing Nolan's trilogy in tone and then pulling a 180 to try and chase the Avengers.
It takes both maturity and insight not to fall for the obvious scapegoat and remember there were a double-digit number of producers on Man of Steel including Nolan himself, and a WB executive standing ovation for the internal screening of the (original, unbutchered) Batman V Superman.

Snyder may be far from perfect but it disgusts me how a literal cloud of producers and executives greenlit every decision leading to this result... and that includes (no doubt) the one that said let Snyder take the brunt of the public's derision.

Snyder isn't the analog to Kevin Feige. He's an analog to John Favreau, if anything. Whoever the WB analog is to Kevin Feige is a yellowbelly who kept his name off the product, and thus kept himself from taking any responsibility.
 

ManaByte

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Southern California
I think it's because of the comic companies involvement. Marvel comic creators have a lot of input in the movies and are deeply involved as executive producers. I think DC just gives over control to movie makers and they end up butchering the characters.

Marvel movies are more true to the intent and character development of the source material. Because of actual comic creator involvement they are legit comic superhero movies. DC movies have lost creator control and try to be action movies. That"s why Marvel wins and DC fails.
That's not true at all. With Marvel Studios, the success comes from three main producers (Feige, Alonzo, and D'Esposito) who oversee everything, and then several other producers who work with them and make sure everything is running smoothly. The comic creators don't have a seat at the table there, much to the disappointment of Rob Liefeld (who was involved with the Fox Deadpool stuff). Walt and Louise Simonson did a great panel at SDCC a few years ago where they talked about what movies they got paid for creating the characters on, and what ones they'd didn't.

Also "executive producers" rarely have any involvement at all, they just cash a check.

DC's problem is too many cooks in the kitchen at the top of the order with the studio execs micromanaging and not knowing what to do with the movies. DC needs a "Feige, Alonzo, and D'Esposito" team desperately where the creative decisions don't go past their Feige. That was a problem Marvel had prior to 2015 when he had to report to Perlmutter's Creative Committee before he went to Iger and took full control over Marvel Studios.
 

Chamber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
Their non-Snyder movies have done well and Wonder Woman 1984 has a more than solid shot of being the box office champ in 2020. I'm sure this has been pointed out already though.

I look forward to the day some of y'all just let go of Justice League.
 

cosmicspooks

Member
Oct 29, 2017
100
As someone mostly on board with BvS, yeah that movie (and the whole Snyder series) is where I think the dislike comes from. Using that dude's weird aesthetic and tone as the basis for everything was not a hot move. Like, ignoring plot, editing, all that, the further away from that aesthetic the better I think.

Also I feel DC generally has to work a bit harder for people to be on board. DC heroes are bonkers aliens and have wild mythologies tied to their backstory, where Marvel is more "person gets powers!"
 

karl's wood

Member
Jan 15, 2019
25
The thing I think is most emblematic of the problems with these films is the term DCEU itself because it's not something Warner Bros use internally. It was something a journalist made up as a joke in reference to Warner Bros' blatant attempts to ape the MCU and everyone rolled with it. Warner Bros have even explained in interviews that they discourage people from using the term in interviews because that's not what they call it.

You may be wondering at this point, well, what do Warner Bros call the shared universe behind the scenes and the answer is, fucking nothing. They have no official name for the DCEU because they see them as standalone films with a shared overarching story. Basically corporate doublespeak for, we don't want to admit we're copying Marvel.

The fact Warner Bros didn't even have a name for this universe says everything you need to know about how much of a shit they gave about telling a coherent story.
 

IronStarX

Banned
Jul 4, 2018
50
The lack of origin movies leading to a inclusive, shared Universe. Rather it was brute-force shoved down our throats..