Oh yeah, I remember that. I quit Power Rangers around Zeo. Thanks for the info!
Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
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Oh yeah, I remember that. I quit Power Rangers around Zeo. Thanks for the info!
Look at all those straws we have to grasp to sort of find a PR team with a female lead.
So basically we're still at zero when it comes to real leads of a whole season-long main team of PR. And even when there was almost a female led team it couldn't be a woman in the red suit. There's been women with every color of PR except red with the exception for the short replacement and not-real leader of the PR Samurai team. (Fake edit: has there ever been a female black ranger [black as in the color of the costume]?)
And I just googled PR Time Force and in all images but one I found the Red Ranger front and center, lol.
Oh, I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that Sailor Moon was mostly about loss of innocence, more that most entries in the genre over the past several years seem to have embraced that trend.
I actually love the comparisons to Power Rangers, another show I really enjoyed when I was a kid. To me Sailor Moon and Power Rangers were the foundation of what a teenage superhero team was for almost all of the 90s. It really is a shame that there has never really been an official female lead for PR, especially because the women characters never really got too much to do in most of them.
I think I often look back at shows like Sailor Moon because I always hated how sidelined women were in other action shows. None of the big shonen series let the girls do much, and even as a kid that always felt weird to me. Western shows are gradually getting better, and it would be cool to see something like Sailor Moon in a more modern climate.
Let me restate my point in a better way then. I think that games that offer the fast paced, moment to moment competitive skills that lend themselves to sports/violent narrative contextualization (from DOOM to Rocket League, in other words), offer something that the slower paced gameplay that lend themselves to nonviolent gameplay loops do not. And, if the goal is to reduce the oversaturation of stylized violence in gaming, I think that simply cutting out all of the first category would be a clear cut artistic and creative loss.
Too often in critical gaming conversations, we try to look at "art" through the same lens as other mediums. "Artsy" games tend to be games that resemble what you might find in an arthouse animation or Oscar nominated picture, or sometimes just straight up emulating popular blockbusters. It's an easy association that gives gaming more "legitimacy", a title I don't think it's ever had to own. And even as gaming does mature and move more towards this more conventional idea of what "art" looks like, I think ignoring the other side of the equation, the tight balance and design of games on a level beyond what serves the narrative appeal, is just as much holding gaming back as a medium.
And to tie things back to the actual topic, I do not subscribe to the magazine of gender essentialism that says that women can't enjoy tightly engaging fast placed gameplay. I think there's a lot to be said about the large scale attempts to make gaming appeal to young men, and the way that aesthetically shows in the games put out, but I think that has more to do with the aesthetics /marketing of gaming (namely violence, which is and has always been pushed as a "guy thing") than the games themselves.
The thing about Sailor Moon is that it was a shoujo series. It was mainly targeted at a female audience which meant the characters had to be characters female viewers would identify with.
That's really the core behind this whole argument about sexism in games (and media), and why anime/manga is somewhat different in this regard. Even today most games and game characters are written to appeal to male players, which is why male characters are often more nuanced than female characters, and why female characters are usually designed to appeal to male players. Shounen anime and manga are often similar. It's why the best male equivalent to sexualized female characters that often gets thrown up isn't muscular male protagonist but guys from female-aimed media like Twilight or something -- they are male characters who were actually written to appeal to female viewers.
I haven't read or watched a lot of shoujo but my understanding is that it's pretty much the Japanese equivalent. There just doesn't seem to be much of it in video games except like, otome games maybe.
https://kotaku.com/this-sexy-sci-fi-game-was-embarrassing-but-fun-until-it-1834558664
This shit is so infuriating, and sad. You straight up cannot trust an anime styled game to treat sex maturely, or even to not overtly sexualize MINORS.
This shit is so infuriating, and sad. You straight up cannot trust an anime styled game to treat sex maturely, or even to not overtly sexualize MINORS.
Thanks for this! Nice video and there seems to be other really interesting videos on the channel too, time to binge a bit.
There has to be room for both, and it's fairly clear to me that the industry isn't growing in a manner that allows that. Video games very much look like laissez faire capitalism, where a lack of checks and balances has created a completely lopsided market (gacha being perhaps the most clear indicator of this). Additionally, gameplay tends to be the problem in modern video games. The play itself is for the purpose of establishing rules, when video games have the potential to do so much more with what they have. Narrative structures in video games that build off of movies are problematic, but that's primarily because filmic language doesn't translate all that well into video games (they aren't movies, after all). Gender essentialism in technology has existed since the 70s, where women were pushed out of computing and even to this day are largely still excluded, whether by means of culture or outright denial, in addition to the challenges they already face.
edit: not really complete thoughts, but my first reaction - have work, might expand upon later
That definitely sounds awful, yeah.
Speaking of which, I was watching a Twitch streamer, usedpizza, play through case 2-3 of Phoenix Wright: Justice For All (Turnabout Big Top, the infamous circus case, which is most famous for just being generally regarded as a bad case in general), and I can't believe I didn't realize just how messed up the love triangle surrounding Regina Berry, the animal tamer, in that case is. As usedpizza did something most people don't seem to do when they play through the game, which is actually paying attention to the characters ages.
Regina herself is 16 according to the game. But on top of that, due to growing up in the circus and her father not having the heart to break her illusions, she has an extremely childlike view of the world, not really understanding the difference between reality and fiction/the "magic" of the circus at all (such as, not even understanding the difference between a ventriloquist's puppet and a real person), doesn't really understand what happens when people die, etc, and that characterization of her comes up at multiple points in the case. So she's both young regardless and is written even younger.
Now, over the course of the case, there are three particular characters who are said to be crushing on her at various points. These characters, and their respective ages, are:
Max Galactica, the defendant: 21
Bat: 22
Ben Woodman, the ventriloquist: 31(!), with this being the guy that was going to propose to her and everything that night if the circus's monkey didn't steal the ring he was planning to propose with. And of course, Ben's very aware that Regina seems to regard his puppet as actually being a separate person entirely and that she just sees him as someone who hangs around the puppet, but he just goes along with that and doesn't make any real attempts at correcting her, on top of not having any problems with proposing to someone half his age, especially one who's so childlike that she can't tell the difference between a puppet and a human.
And of course, Phoenix, Maya, and pretty much everyone treats that sequence of events pretty normally (with Phoenix himself being wooed briefly, when Regina asks him to find something she lost, and you get three dialogue choices, all variants of "of course" because Phoenix himself is smitten by her), with the only one that really raises an eyebrow about it being Acro, but of course, as it's revealed, the real reason Acro himself isn't head over heals for Regina is because he held her responsible for his brother falling into a coma, and nothing to actually do with how innocent she is or how messed up those relationships are, or anything.
Can't believe I didn't really think much about that or notice that 'til now, but yeah. Just one more reason the case sucks, I suppose.
So, beware because I haven't finished it but, for all its flaws, I think Days Gone did pretty good in representing women. Deacon's wife, Tucker, Addy and especially Rikki are really good characters imo.
Also points for them making sexually active women, something most developers seems terribly afraid of.
Also points for them making sexually active women, something most developers seems terribly afraid of.
Jesus this comment:
"I am in no way defending these choices, but is this one of your first visual novels? I feel as if you can count on almost every A+ popular visual novel being overly perverted/sexual and also sexualizing minors. Even Phoenix Wright does it with Pearl Fey."
iTs AParT oF ThE CulTure wHat dId yOu eXpeCt!!!
Besides phoenix wright the only VN Ive played is the house in fata morgana and i think that set my expectations up for VN's way to high.
Also with phoenix im on the second game at the clown case atm but upon meeting pearl i found her cute, are you telling me they do creepy stuff to her?
You know Mia, and how she keeps reappearing, right? Pearl is related to her....
In fairness, what shonen protagonist doesn't like to eat a lot? Yet from Goku to Luffy, they all have model body types.
It doesn't go beyond the whole "channelling Mia" thing, in case you're worried. Either way how Mia is frequently used as cheap fanservice is kind of blemish on the series, since it's otherwise pretty good at avoiding that stuff (barring the occasional witness).
I mean, they also train to a degree of personal bodily negligence.
I wouldn't really place Usagi, or any of the other senshi for that matter, eatting a lot as any sort of commentary. It only really happens in the original anime and it's more for a gag than anything. If anything she's super self conscious about her weight but is constantly snacking anyway. There are a few episodes dealing iwth the fact that she gains weight but they'll never actually draw her differently because it's not something that matters.
This right here is why people use "anime" as an adjective.
The only thing I'll add is that you can't trust GAMES to treat sex maturely. I count on one hand moments in games that have treated sex as more than a quest reward or a bit of eye candy aimed at 12 year olds.
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Well, Goku trains. Luffy just gets super big, but then instantly digests all of it and goes back to his normal body regardless of whether he's training or not.
That said, I wasn't really making an argument that Usagi was making a statement on eating so much that it's just become a sort of norm or running joke that shonen protagonists are big eaters.
The first comment: "I am in no way defending these choices, but...."
I literally don't play any VN because of this creepy bullshit.
Never had an issue with Pearl in AA. She was always presented as just a cute little kid and really felt like one throughout the series. It's one thing I really like about the series. Maya, Pearl, Trucy, Ema and Kay are all generally well written and developed characters. They minors and kids and treated accordingly. Mia channeling was definitely a bit tasteless and needless pandering but it never felt like it was sexualizing Pearl, or Maya for that matter. Trucy's Magic Panties may be a bit too on the nose despite probably being a stab at the trope in general, but is otherwise nothing major. Regina definitely was over the line, I just replayed that case for the first time in years as well and the reactions to her from all the male characters is quite gross and the entire love triangle is unsettling to say the least.
Of all the main characters throughout the series I found Iris Watson in DGS to be the only one that failed to pass the Train Test. IE would I be embarrassed for people on my commuter train to see me playing the game in public. I've been replaying AA1-3 on the train on my big tablet and never had a second thought about anyone seeing what I was playing or what was one screen, but when I was playing DGS on my 3DS anytime Iris popped up I wanted to lower the brightness or something lest someone see her there.
There's no real sexualization of her at all in the game, the first game at least, but she hits a number of tropes most often utilized with those kinds of sexualized child characters, much like the one one documented in the Kotaku article on Our World is Ended. Iris is a 10 year old girl, who is a super genius wise beyond her years so she's practically an adult and often more responsible and insightful than the adults around her, but she's still a child with selective naivety and cutesy elements. Which is further accentuated by her whole design and outfit that is just really over the top cuteness too. Pink hair, heart shapes all over, exaggerated Edwardian dress, etc. She's not simply just a little kid that happens to be cute and endearing like Pearl, she's this weird fetish doll come to life.
Of all the main characters throughout the series I found Iris Watson in DGS to be the only one that failed to pass the Train Test. IE would I be embarrassed for people on my commuter train to see me playing the game in public. I've been replaying AA1-3 on the train on my big tablet and never had a second thought about anyone seeing what I was playing or what was one screen, but when I was playing DGS on my 3DS anytime Iris popped up I wanted to lower the brightness or something lest someone see her there.
There's no real sexualization of her at all in the game, the first game at least, but she hits a number of tropes most often utilized with those kinds of sexualized child characters, much like the one one documented in the Kotaku article on Our World is Ended. Iris is a 10 year old girl, who is a super genius wise beyond her years so she's practically an adult and often more responsible and insightful than the adults around her, but she's still a child with selective naivety and cutesy elements. Which is further accentuated by her whole design and outfit that is just really over the top cuteness too. Pink hair, heart shapes all over, exaggerated Edwardian dress, etc. She's not simply just a little kid that happens to be cute and endearing like Pearl, she's this weird fetish doll come to life.
This is why I mostly read otome visual novels, and prefer Western otome over JP (yeah, they're generally not as high quality, at least in the artwork, but the writing is usually better). They're usually a lot less sexualized than their normal harem counterparts and focus more on romance and storytelling than fan service. And sure, otome protagonists have their own problems, but at least the love interests are 95% of the time adult men. Even if they're in the 18-19 yo range, they don't look like they could be mistaken for a 15 yo. I hate shota, though, especially when the romance is a mother/son type deal that sways into creepy incestual sexualisation. I just don't get it at all and it creeps me the hell out.
I'd highly suggest:
Demonheart - https://store.steampowered.com/app/578900/Demonheart/?curator_clanid=7593237
Animal Lover (the title sounds bad, but it's actually a really smartly-written, extremely entertaining VN) - https://store.steampowered.com/app/542200/Animal_Lover/?curator_clanid=7593237
Changeling (great lore and storytelling) - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1010240/Changeling/?curator_clanid=7593237
All three have great female protagonists too.
Demonheart - https://store.steampowered.com/app/578900/Demonheart/?curator_clanid=7593237
Animal Lover (the title sounds bad, but it's actually a really smartly-written, extremely entertaining VN) - https://store.steampowered.com/app/542200/Animal_Lover/?curator_clanid=7593237
Changeling (great lore and storytelling) - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1010240/Changeling/?curator_clanid=7593237
All three have great female protagonists too.
Ive been meaning to watch this
Does it bring up the varius female video game characters from the 80s pre or around Metroid's release.
Yesterday, I dug up the closet box with my old PS1 games collection. I stumbled upon my Lunar Silver Star Story Complete copy, and was immediately overwhelmed by a wave of nostalgia. I haven't seen this for years! Then I flipped the jewel case and immediately saw this:
I don't remember having any thoughts about the art as a teenager. Yet, now it immediately made me roll my eyes. Things are changing I guess, and it's a good thing.
I don't remember having any thoughts about the art as a teenager. Yet, now it immediately made me roll my eyes. Things are changing I guess, and it's a good thing.
Damn anime souls went full anime now that is back we know where the extra dev time went.
All the women are what you expect, all the options on the chara creator what you expect...
All the women are what you expect, all the options on the chara creator what you expect...
Code Vein I guess you mean?
Been avoiding it for ages, saw some basic gameplay footage and it just looks plain bad to me.
Came here to post this haha.
Quick, spot the difference between how the two genders are presented...!
On the more positive end of things, this design from Bloodlines 2 looks great. I love this dress.
There's an overarching theme i've noticed from this thread that as far as i know, is never brought up in any substantive or explicit way:
Everyone in here really does have the bad luck of genuinely enjoying, specifically, all the games/media that are also the worst offenders in sexualising women. From my understanding, it's basically all out of Japan, right? Like, Japan's stuff is the worst in terms of sexualisation but you just so happen to really enjoy all their rpgs, VNs, , anime, etc. That sucks.
Just to add something to the overall conversation, it really seems to me that change will only come from future generations. I can't speak for the future generations of Japanese game & content creatores but at least here in the US, real, meaningful and sustained change will only come from a more thoughtful and enlightened generation of men and women who eventually make their way into the industry. This opinion is also nothing new, i know.
Everyone in here really does have the bad luck of genuinely enjoying, specifically, all the games/media that are also the worst offenders in sexualising women. From my understanding, it's basically all out of Japan, right? Like, Japan's stuff is the worst in terms of sexualisation but you just so happen to really enjoy all their rpgs, VNs, , anime, etc. That sucks.
Just to add something to the overall conversation, it really seems to me that change will only come from future generations. I can't speak for the future generations of Japanese game & content creatores but at least here in the US, real, meaningful and sustained change will only come from a more thoughtful and enlightened generation of men and women who eventually make their way into the industry. This opinion is also nothing new, i know.
Funny how a game that is based on a system that heavily emphasize sex somehow treats women with more respect that a "normal" anime game. Then again, that might be why. Vampire (both game systems) heavily emphasize intimacy and passion, which ironically forces you to think about them more than "this is hot".
Yeah, no matter how many people might get upset at the fact that we dare besmirch their beloved nippon, a lot of the problems in over sexualized game design boil down to "lol japan" most of the time. It sucks because it can lead to overarching generalizations, but...it's SO pervasive in japanese pop culture that it's hard to often not just throw up your hands and consign yourself to it.
Like, it was funny watching the GB quicklook of Code Vein and how quickly they wave away ownership of the character creator. "Im not in the driver's seat, that's not me! For the record".
You know, I was looking through my twitter feed this morning, which I primarily use as an art and news feed, and, speaking as a CIS male, it is FUCKING EXHAUSTING that damn near every single artist I follow has the mantra of "the design of a woman is only interesting or important if the viewer wants to fuck her." This is coming from someone who's "supposed to like that kind of thing" so I cannot fathom how hard it must be for some of you ladies. I pour one out to you everytime something like Code Vein crosses my desk.
The MULTIPLE underboob outfits that are DEFAULTS was the thing that made me roll my eyes. I fucking love underboob and found that shit unacceptable. Like come on my dude...why would you make this your default representation for your characters? That's TackyAF.
Yup, setting appropiate is a thing.
That's the spot, like 1 underboob oufit is too much like is the most horny on main of outfits and still you put multiple?
RIP Fashionsouls
Makes me wonder if this was based on someone larp outfit. Vampire has a big larp scene.
Damn, talk about "breasted boobily" writing.
Oh man, I can't believe I missed this before. Yeah, that's not a good look... I guess because the ages just seem to be thrown in their profiles and not really brought up in game it was easy to miss. I mean is certainly no "Adult Hylian falling in love with little Zora girl."
To be fair, even into the late 2000's, that was considered normal in geek circles. For instance the Fantastic Four:
I can't find it but there was a late 2000's Fantastic Four Comic where their age differences are even larger. Reed Richards is in college while Sue Storm is like 2 years old. No wonder people spoof Mr Fantastic as abusive at times.
I'd say the "this is part of vns" shit is pretty bs. There's a lot of good vns which don't need to draw upon that kind of stuff. Though I will say the more perv oriented stuff doesn't hold back...like at all.
You talking Breath of the Wild? I never for one second took the Zora champion as "a little girl". Certainly young but not a little girl. Link is like 17, isn't he? Little Zora girl would be kid Ruto from OoT. That character was definitely coded as a child.
There's a side quest that ends with an adult hylian and a child zora getting together.
To be honest I've only ever played Steins Gate due to everyone's recommendation here and I hated it but not so much for creepy issues but for the art, terrible writing and dull story.
Any you would recommend someone skeptical to try?
Really? As a teenager you didn't have any thoughts about this? I was like 14 at the time and trust me, I noticed.Yesterday, I dug up the closet box with my old PS1 games collection. I stumbled upon my Lunar Silver Star Story Complete copy, and was immediately overwhelmed by a wave of nostalgia. I haven't seen this for years! Then I flipped the jewel case and immediately saw this:
I don't remember having any thoughts about the art as a teenager. Yet, now it immediately made me roll my eyes. Things are changing I guess, and it's a good thing.
And even back then it was egregious because Luna was not sexualized at all and was always dressed recently and her dress *gasp* went below her knees! Not only was this art spoilerrific because it telegraphed a heel turn for Luna but they also turned her into an evil half naked bimbo to ogle at.
Hmm I can't remember that one so I won't comment further. I thought it was about Link and the Zora champion.
Yeah.
Here's a video for anyone that hasn't played the game/done that side quest.
Wow... did they have to make the Zora so young? Hell, make the Hylian a kid too and it suddenly goes from creepy to cute young puppy love.
Huh you didn't like Steins;Gate? Damn, though the anime does that justice enough to not read the vn.
I'd easily say Danganronpa when it comes to recommending someone a vn, with the only real fanservice in the games being two pictures in the second game. There's also Narcissu which is basically like a collection of short stories making it something you don't need to heavily invest into. Those are things on the shorter side at least, though there's a lot of great long form vns such as Umineko, Higurash and Clannad I'd recommend if you did get into the genre.
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