I am so thankful that at least the summoned heroes look extremely faithful to their original/normal designs. Marth, Sigurd, and Celica all look great. Shame about everyone else being varying degrees of hideous.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
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Yeah, I drafted the comment, then checked her official art on Google Images and realized that her costume was tamer than I remembered.This is the official artwork for Primrose:
I have far more familiarity with this design trope than I should. It's by no means a new trend, but it does seem to have been on an upswing for the past roughly 15 years. The modelers had to make the female avatar's uniform vacuum-sealed just so they could do this.Exaggerated bosom aside, I do like a "sexy thief" idea when branching off that sexy femme fatale archtype ....but def don't trust games to depict it anything other than than skin deep lol 😶
Anyways...
Say ladies (and gents): Ever had an outfit with a.... a... "boob dividing ribbon w/ waist strap holding in place"?
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Man this was so much better:
View: https://twitter.com/jaeon009/status/1538135701459718145?s=20&t=5ddEBbdJ1A4uYBh3pu0hIg
Also:
before:
View: https://twitter.com/jaeon009/status/1538135701459718145?s=20&t=5ddEBbdJ1A4uYBh3pu0hIg
Also:
before:
Anyways...
Say ladies (and gents): Ever had an outfit with a.... a... "boob dividing ribbon w/ waist strap holding in place"?
Lol, that face, those completely dead eyes. How can a character look SO OVERDESIGNED yet possess absolutely not even a shred of a personality that shines through?
Awakening and Heroes were sorta going for the same idea..... So yeah, guess we shouldn't be surprised. Three Houses was the exception, not a return to form it seems
The designs will grow on me, but they look messy in ways that the prior avatar characters didn't. Color balance can do a lot for designs.
On the one hand, as you alluded to, it's not even always "artistic choice" serving as the reason for a lot of the showcases we see in this thread. Often it's just cold, cynical attempts at raising game sales, cosplay, merchandise, and the like. A seemingly neutral method of operation on the part of game companies that winds up contributing to the persistence of patriarchal ideals, deliberately or otherwise.
On the other hand, a lot of games do seem to just be the byproduct of artists' fetishes being on full display and left unchecked. A whole lot of artists just bluntly tacking whatever their current fixation is on to a character with post hoc story justifications. That goes back to your point on people in the industry just not viewing women as anything more than customizable objects who need to be established as playthings time and time again. I'm just having difficulty parsing where the industry's line between "sexy" and "sex object" is. Does the industry even have a line?
I don't like your post, you're making me actually think about media.
That art on the Tweet looks very nice. Here it is for those who can't access Twitter right now:
I think I'm in general agreement with you, but I raise a few concerns. There's too much blurring of the lines by third parties for what constitutes "sincere" eroticism versus outright objectification, and that might be the biggest problem for those on the outside looking in and those on the inside working on these games.
On the one hand, as you alluded to, it's not even always "artistic choice" serving as the reason for a lot of the showcases we see in this thread. Often it's just cold, cynical attempts at raising game sales, cosplay, merchandise, and the like. A seemingly neutral method of operation on the part of game companies that winds up contributing to the persistence of patriarchal ideals, deliberately or otherwise.
On the other hand, a lot of games do seem to just be the byproduct of artists' fetishes being on full display and left unchecked. A whole lot of artists just bluntly tacking whatever their current fixation is on to a character with post hoc story justifications. That goes back to your point on people in the industry just not viewing women as anything more than customizable objects who need to be established as playthings time and time again. I'm just having difficulty parsing where the industry's line between "sexy" and "sex object" is. Does the industry even have a line?
I don't like your post, you're making me actually think about media.
Man this was so much better:
View: https://twitter.com/jaeon009/status/1538135701459718145?s=20&t=5ddEBbdJ1A4uYBh3pu0hIg
Also:
before:
That art on the Tweet looks very nice. Here it is for those who can't access Twitter right now:
Fire Emblem: Pepsi Clash
My own spin on the "leaked FE game" protagonist
My own spin on the "leaked FE game" protagonist
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Can't see the jiggle physics if you're up the character's butt
Pretty much lol. It's insane how bad they look.
Goddamn, you're right. Though not in the way you think. The artist, Mika Pikazo, has done some professional Vtuber designs.
Though they primarily do light novel illustrations.
This if the opposite of the scarlet and violet boots girl
One is bold and brash while this belongs in the trash
The entire game feels like an overreaction to both Heroes & Three Houses. If you told someone the aesthetic & design were from a new mobile game, they'd probably believe it (hence all the posters thinking this was a new Heroes update originally in the live reaction thread)
It's also releasing in January, which is a weird time for a Fire Emblem game not name Tokyo Mirage Sessions. I can't tell if this game is a misguided marketing attempt at vtubers & heroes or something Intelligent Systems backwalked themselves into after the success of Three Houses.
Edit: and speaking of designs, this game seems to be working backwards into making popular designs. Three Houses made a bunch of good designs with decent characterizations that the fanbase subsequently embraced and popularized. Meanwhile Engage comes off as a bunch of designs made by someone's parent who was trying to emulate what was popular with youths. Spoiler alert: crappy vtuber models isn't what makes vtubers popular and throwing in a bunch of classic characters & anime tropes won't help either.
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Cosplayers are screwed, lol.
Guaranteed that it's easier to just apply whatever physics they have going on with the hair and jacket than trying to calculate how it actually works. And when your audience doesn't care that much, there ya go.
Argh I love it. :(
I also like this one that adds some order to the blocky-ass highlights
View: https://twitter.com/retquits/status/1569863699095080960?s=20&t=TQehNwgv17Y5doF_5ygjaQ
her face alone looks sooo much better here. I guess this has become one of those "hire fans" exceptions huh?
Was I the only one annoyed by Lynn having boob socks in the stained glass artwork at the beginning of the Engage trailer? I mean, come on. I doubt that's even accurate to the style of medieval art they are trying to emulate.
It's been a Nintendo exclusive series (outside one re-release of 1) since 2014 though.
What about it? The issues with the Bayonetta series are well worn at this point. It's very much a "what you see, is what you'll get" series. I'm sure they'll be more to talk about when the game comes out, but for now? Eh.
I also find Bayonetta less egregious than the other examples we've been talking about. Not because it's necessarily better, but rather on how upfront it is. Bayonetta looks like and acts like a woman. Granted, a woman who is apparently cosplaying in a BDSM porno. But I'd take that over the jiggle physics, terrible camera angles and waifu aesthetics of the other examples.
The one thing Bayonetta has going for it is that you know exactly what you're getting. Indeed, if Viola ends up getting objectified in Bayonetta 3, they'll be a lot more discussion because the game & marketing are going out of their way as portraying her as not that.
So yeah. Bayonetta? Bad. But there's not much to say that hasn't been self evident for the last decade. There'll be more to discuss when the game comes out
That immediately stuck out to me. But after Heroes I'm expecting the worst for Lyn & Micaiah.
People, rail against the Fire Emblem design all you want, but can I ask you to refrain from doing these weird digs against the artist herself? In that announcement thread and here, it's clear that people are not actually familiar with Mika Pikazo's works, but are still all too ready to dismiss her because apparently she did designs for some VTubers or something.
Yea, Intelligent Systems probably hired her because they want to appeal to the youth demographic, the same way they hired Kurahana Chinatsu (who also, by the way, has designed a VTuber) for Three Houses because she's popular amongst women and they wanted to appeal to those demographic. I think we can all criticize and artist's work without giving them imagined characterization and being dismissive of their own achievements.
Like, I object to this insinuation that Mika Pikazo is some out-of-touch artist who designed some crappy VTubers, and then got the FE job because "hey VTubers are popular, right?" Completely ignoring that she is actually a very popular illustrator amongst young people and that's why she got to design those VTubers to begin with.
Yea, Intelligent Systems probably hired her because they want to appeal to the youth demographic, the same way they hired Kurahana Chinatsu (who also, by the way, has designed a VTuber) for Three Houses because she's popular amongst women and they wanted to appeal to those demographic. I think we can all criticize and artist's work without giving them imagined characterization and being dismissive of their own achievements.
I haven't dismissed the artist herself at all. And I don't think most people have. You can criticize the artwork without criticizing the artist. I wasn't even aware of the artist's identity or previous works, as I'm guessing most western fans aren't. The vtuber analogue is simply a criticism on the broader aesthetic of the in-game models rather than the original artwork. Which is more a critique on Intelligent Systems than the original artist.
But I find the proactive defense of the artist rather weird. Criticism of Fire Emblem designs has been a thing since Awakening. The history of the artist doesn't unquestionably shield them from bad designs. And, lets be honest, the far majority view this as a bad design.
A large part of art is about being critiqued. And that goes exponentially for commercial products. Being a young woman doesn't protect her from making bad or objective designs, nor does it justify a weird defence of them.
OP
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as someone who doesn't watch gaming livestreams I love coming in here afterwards to catch the goss. those FE designs. good lord. sexism aside they're straight hideous
And of course the man's ribbon/tie is tucked in while hers goes down cleavage.Exaggerated bosom aside, I do like a "sexy thief" idea when branching off that sexy femme fatale archtype ....but def don't trust movies, media, or least of all games to depict it anything other than than skin deep lol 😶
Anyways...
Say ladies (and gents): Ever had an outfit with a.... a... "boob dividing ribbon w/ waist strap holding in place"?
I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say, because I don't care if you called the designs bad. I'm even inclined to agree with you. I'm not trying to shield her from art criticisms.
I specifically object to this sentiment I see that "artist = VTuber artist" and "VTuber = bad" ergo "artist = bad artist" especially since, as you said, most are not even aware of her identity or previous works. I also honed in your comment in particular because it feels like it's going out of its way to paint her getting the job as some misguided happenstance at Intelligent Systems' part instead of just a straight forward "company hired a popular artist." Maybe she is simply a popular artist who can make bad designs. Maybe that's all there is to it.
I admit I'm pretty distraught because I saw people are already already harassing her on Twitter over this, and people on the other thread straight up called her things like "shitty artist" and "gross." So maybe I'm currently ill-equipped to make a level-headed argument, but is it really "weirdly defensive" to ask people to just maybe keep the criticisms to just the designs?
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Engage artstyle and char designs look so much different than Three Houses. There are a lot of actual children and young teen girls too. Much more "moe".
The overall design though, yeah they're terrible.
Those eyes look lively enough to me, and definitely much better than Three Houses MCs. Now those are dead eyes.
The overall design though, yeah they're terrible.
View: https://twitter.com/StellarBlade/status/1570067227801681921?t=tdq5cAI7zqhmZzfUZkprDg&s=19
The marketing for Stellar Blade seems set in stone at least.
OP
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Sigh. The combination of the constantly sexualized camera angles and the weird porn-game voice for the protagonist just really makes it clear who that game is intended for.
Sony publishing this game is embarrassing as shit.
Sony publishing this game is embarrassing as shit.
Stellar Blade is such a bizarre anomaly for Sony that it must have some kind of explanation, especially because they are actively pushing it instead of just showing it.
I thougth about it for a while and came up with two possible explanations:
1. Sony saw all the backlash and memes that go like "here's a pervy game on Switch, on Xbox, on PC and on Playstation" with the first three images being the same and in the fourth image you can barely see what's going on because of random beams of light and weird censorship. They got mad because random gamers were making fun of them and some developers stopped making Playstation ports of their games and moved to Switch/PC only and decided that the best solution to change their image as the "prudish" company was to go all in on a project like Stellar Blade so they can go all "see, you are wrong! We can do this kind of stuff too!"
And if that is the reason they are making the wrong move.
Supporting Stellar Blade will do nothing to change the public's opinion. Nintendo censored Mortal Kombat ONE TIME and for decades they were everyone's laughing-stock because they were "afraid of blood and gore" and nothing could make up for it, not even allowing the other Mortal Kombat games on their platforms with no censorship.
Is there a way to change their image? Possibly but it will probably take more time and careful thougth than they think and it will have nothing to do with shoving games like this down our throat.
Or 2. They are malding about Bayonetta 3 being a Switch exclusive and getting so much attention. They want to compete with it somehow. Reminds me of how they pushed Killzone so much because they were malding over Halo's success on a rival platform.
And if that is the reason, please stop. You are embarassing yourself Sony. You don't need to compete with every single exclusive on other platforms. And if you had to I would sooner search for an answer to Animal Crossing than Bayonetta.
What do you think? Do you believe that Sony is pushing Stellar Blade for one of those two reasons, or maybe another reason I didn't think about?
I thougth about it for a while and came up with two possible explanations:
1. Sony saw all the backlash and memes that go like "here's a pervy game on Switch, on Xbox, on PC and on Playstation" with the first three images being the same and in the fourth image you can barely see what's going on because of random beams of light and weird censorship. They got mad because random gamers were making fun of them and some developers stopped making Playstation ports of their games and moved to Switch/PC only and decided that the best solution to change their image as the "prudish" company was to go all in on a project like Stellar Blade so they can go all "see, you are wrong! We can do this kind of stuff too!"
And if that is the reason they are making the wrong move.
Supporting Stellar Blade will do nothing to change the public's opinion. Nintendo censored Mortal Kombat ONE TIME and for decades they were everyone's laughing-stock because they were "afraid of blood and gore" and nothing could make up for it, not even allowing the other Mortal Kombat games on their platforms with no censorship.
Is there a way to change their image? Possibly but it will probably take more time and careful thougth than they think and it will have nothing to do with shoving games like this down our throat.
Or 2. They are malding about Bayonetta 3 being a Switch exclusive and getting so much attention. They want to compete with it somehow. Reminds me of how they pushed Killzone so much because they were malding over Halo's success on a rival platform.
And if that is the reason, please stop. You are embarassing yourself Sony. You don't need to compete with every single exclusive on other platforms. And if you had to I would sooner search for an answer to Animal Crossing than Bayonetta.
What do you think? Do you believe that Sony is pushing Stellar Blade for one of those two reasons, or maybe another reason I didn't think about?
I think they just don't care and the general public also does not care. Still going through them but most of the generally progressive gameing podcasts I listened to today barley mentioned it as an issue with the game with at least one of them saying how it (the game) was a bright spot that made the games before and after it look worse.
I stopped going into threads about the game after the last reveal but I'm sure even here talk is just filled with how good it looks and then if anyone brings up the designs it will go into the "but bayonetta" cycle.
I stopped going into threads about the game after the last reveal but I'm sure even here talk is just filled with how good it looks and then if anyone brings up the designs it will go into the "but bayonetta" cycle.
This is right on the money.
Various games are going to have sexualized women while others won't so it has become a standard for years and will continue to be whenever we like it or not.
You just have to hope for the best and expect the worst as well.
underhair being different color than overhair is peak, but they hired that dude for their loud clashing of colors, and they did that
This is pretty much the case. Half of this forum and parts of twitter are minorities when it comes to criticizing sexualized character designs. A game company won't particularly care that some twitter users are getting some hit tweets making fun of sexualized character designs when those same games end up selling quite well. (Xenoblade, Street Fighter, Nier, 90% of all gacha games)
Of course, I do think that this type of criticism can influence future games by restraining some of the more sexualized designs (IE Xenoblade 2 to 3), but that's not necessarily a given thing.
sony is "pushing" stellar blade because it was the surprise hit of one of their previous streams, and they think the game will make them money/drive ps5 sales/improve the perceived value of their console
sony isn't a random 20-year-old, corporations don't "mald", and they don't really give a shit about memes either - the original trailer has 1.7m views on their youtube channel, and managed to be a memorable part of a stream that had like... spiderman 2 announcements and the like. this is what matters to them.
(incidentally, if you want another data point in this direction, you should probably check out what the most-viewed trailer on their youtube channel is. I'm just saying. it's all about money.)
medinaria
Interesting. I can definitely see how the success of the original trailer might be the real reason they decided to publish the game.
So you think it's a complete coincidence that the game is being promoted at the same time as Nintendo is promoting Bayo 3?
What I mean is if "Nintendo is publishing a new Bayonetta game, so it would be good to publish a similar game as an exclusive to compete" played a part in the decision, even a 1% of a part, or not. Maybe it played 0% and Sony doesn't even think about Bayonetta ever.
Interesting. I can definitely see how the success of the original trailer might be the real reason they decided to publish the game.
So you think it's a complete coincidence that the game is being promoted at the same time as Nintendo is promoting Bayo 3?
What I mean is if "Nintendo is publishing a new Bayonetta game, so it would be good to publish a similar game as an exclusive to compete" played a part in the decision, even a 1% of a part, or not. Maybe it played 0% and Sony doesn't even think about Bayonetta ever.
bayonetta isn't a system-seller, or really a game that companies focus on - it doesn't sell enough to be worth that kind of attention. (my personal opinions on the series are probably obvious, for what it's worth.) I don't think the thought has even crossed their mind.
if anything, I think the things that make them more likely to promote the game are the very obvious parallels to nier automata - my guess is they are hoping it can be a game that hits that same audience. character action game, female lead, post-apocalyptic setting, and so on. no robots, but that's the only super major difference. automata was really big for sony last-gen, and was one of the biggest non-indie surprise hits of the generation. that's the kind of thing companies target.