"Women aren't aroused by visuals."
Yeah, tell that to the stack of yaoi doujinshi in my underwear drawer XD
Yeah, tell that to the stack of yaoi doujinshi in my underwear drawer XD
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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Without touching the evolutionary arguments (which are basically contentless), as a neuroscientist these kinds of popsci factoids should always be taken with very large grains of salt, and in any case even if this claim is robust and reproducible across the general population it doesn't establish any kind of causality or innateness or evolutionary necessity. Our level of understanding of human behavior is no where close to being able to justify claims about necessity or innateness or whatever, particularly in the context of consumer spending habits.
At the end of the day the argument boils down to "men who buy things like looking at big ol' tiddies" and any scientific factoids used to bolster it are just window dressing.
I have been asking you the manner in which it is relevant, because you brought it up. It is not on me to make the argument for you. That said, I think the_wart makes a strong counterargument with the above post.
Evolutionary necessity was never my argument, though sex does tend to sell--not in spades, but it does. A lot of commercials do go for certain set markers to snare the sexes as well. Are they only culturally orientated or biologically driven? That's, of course, a different debate.
My argument was more along the lines of this: "men can buy things with titties, and developers tend to cash in on this."
It's relevant because of the topic. Suggesting that why I brought it up is an irrelevant argument. A strong and weak argument is just you playing with semantics. I'm still trying to understand your argument that boils down to this: "why did you bring up a comment about visual markers for sexual arousal up in a thread that's about depictions of sex? You gotta explain the why, man!!!" Then let me ask you this: why was any other argument brought into the thread that didn't take this into account?
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This argument has already been brought up multiple times throughout this and many other threads, and is thus redundant.
Yes, you have to explain why you're bringing up arguments, especially when many are concerned about the relevancy of those arguments. If arguments are taken into account as making sense in the context of the discussion, it's largely unnecessary. Context is important when relating content.
The only question presented in your previous comment was rhetorical in nature.
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I've always felt the 'women aren't visual' thing was a load of bullshit. I follow enough female artists (+ being one myself) to know they will absolutely design and draw stuff just as sexaulized visually as men do for the same gd reasons if they're allowed to.
I really think the only reason why that whole concept of women being more emotional/mental-oriented became a thing is due to how society views women's interest and makes them feel bad/dirty for liking the things they do. We don't get to create as many shows, movies, games, etc as men that cater to what we like and when it does happen it's criticized to hell and back, with writing being one of the few areas where women can explore whatever the hell they want and get it out there relatively easily. If you're stuck with only books and your imagination to get off long enough it's no wonder why visuals aren't your default setting. And even if whatever science supposedly backing this up is true I gd hate it because then it's just going to get used as an excuse to keep catering to men in every way visually cuz science says, guys!
Like, yeah, I like the emotional/mental side of things it's true, buuuuuuuttt lemme tell you I also like seeing sexy dudes just as much as any dude likes seeing sexy gals I just can't get it majority of the time or I'm handed a shirtless guy and told it's totally equal to the girl with both tits and ass out in constant sexual poses making moans every time she takes a step.
I really think the only reason why that whole concept of women being more emotional/mental-oriented became a thing is due to how society views women's interest and makes them feel bad/dirty for liking the things they do. We don't get to create as many shows, movies, games, etc as men that cater to what we like and when it does happen it's criticized to hell and back, with writing being one of the few areas where women can explore whatever the hell they want and get it out there relatively easily. If you're stuck with only books and your imagination to get off long enough it's no wonder why visuals aren't your default setting. And even if whatever science supposedly backing this up is true I gd hate it because then it's just going to get used as an excuse to keep catering to men in every way visually cuz science says, guys!
Like, yeah, I like the emotional/mental side of things it's true, buuuuuuuttt lemme tell you I also like seeing sexy dudes just as much as any dude likes seeing sexy gals I just can't get it majority of the time or I'm handed a shirtless guy and told it's totally equal to the girl with both tits and ass out in constant sexual poses making moans every time she takes a step.
Fucking nailed it. Discovering yaoi was like a revelation for 14 y/o me because it was the first time I saw anything like it. (thanks Final Fantasy 7!) Evo Psych has always just been bullshit used to justify racism and sexism. I'd legit hear guys in college using evo psych to justify why men cheated on their girlfriends guilt-free.
This was all over the Soul Calibur VI thread yesterday. A game where you literally have a domintrax woman wearing a thong and brandishing a whip, and where most female characters have FFF cup tits bouncing around moaning when they get hit.... and you still had posters in there being like "yeah but Maxi is shirtless! You can see his abs! Totally the same thing!" No.... no it isn't.
Then I don't really see what point there was bringing up biology or evolution to begin with. And the argument left after you remove all that has been rehashed countless times in this thread. Yes, developers can and do cater to particular demographics. I don't see anyone arguing that the latest Senran Kagura: Tiddie Bounce should be banned from all stores and the developers exiled to an undersea containment facility where ne'er a tiddie shall bounce again.
This doesn't preclude discussion of the larger social context giving rise to and resulting from the choices developers make. Nor does it invalidate anyone's personal frustration with the status quo.
Yeah, exactly.
That said, you don't really have to worry about the science since there's definitely nothing conclusive.
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling and antagonizing other members in a thread about gender representation
Rhetorical argument, haha. Do tell as to what does that even mean here. That doesn't mean what you think it means. Thank you for the huge, unintentional compliment. This just goes to show that not only are you oblivious to what I'm saying, but you love using terms for the sake of using them. Whether it was brought up in the thread or not leads to the other argument: you can't expect someone to read 300 pages.
Your second paragraph is silly. What am I doing if not talking about the context? "How it relates to the content" ... nice pointless, padding sentences that mean nothing. Do you just want to have the last word, with such a childishly persistent attitude where you've been bringing up random nonsense just to prolong this? God ... you're being so silly!
It mostly links to how people have evolved in regards to mating rituals, sex and sexuality, and other aspects of behavioural differences in regards to sex. I'm not sure how it doesn't relate to what I said when theoretical framework supports it:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...s-curves-how-big-a-role-has-evolution-played/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...0a7ca1b/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bf4aabdd92b9
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/w...-Venus-and-heres-the-science-to-prove-it.html
One of them is older than the others, but it's fairly interesting; however, all of them highlight some common factors.
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...s-curves-how-big-a-role-has-evolution-played/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...0a7ca1b/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bf4aabdd92b9
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/w...-Venus-and-heres-the-science-to-prove-it.html
One of them is older than the others, but it's fairly interesting; however, all of them highlight some common factors.
I never claimed it shouldn't be challenged: I stated that it shouldn't be completely discarded; and if this has been brought up, then the OP is in need of a good edit where some good posts, on this topic, should be linked; otherwise, the thread and the passive-aggressive responses just come across as lazy discussion where people only demand affirmations and nothing else.
Except then I pointed out why none of that was particularly relevant to the discussion at hand, and you seemingly agreed and acknowledged that all that actually matters for your argument is the empirical claim that men like looking at big tiddies. The fact that you have a bunch of pop-sci factoids to contextualize that claim isn't particularly relevant.
Fist bump for BL paving the way for our 14yo selves gaining enlightenment LOL!
Yeah I stayed out of that thread because I just knew it'd make me way too angry. It drives me up the gd wall every time a dude tries to tell me sexualization of the sexes is equivalent and then uses examples like that -- or worse use those hulking, almost repulsive muscle men characters ugh. o<-<
Yeah I think all that kind of "science" is hogwash and I really don't believe any of it. And IF any of it even was remotely true, you know it's always taken so far out of context and blown way out of proportion to fit a narrative.
First of all get the fuck out of here with calling another user "childish" and "silly".
Second of all both of your arguments ("sex sells" and "women are visual") are older than the Sun, and have been brought up (and thoroughly demonstrated to be irrelevant) so many times in the thread that the former was put into a literal bingo card. Frankly I think both should be added to the "don't make these arguments" list in the thread because they do nothing but derail the thread, as inevitably residents try to explain why they're irrelevant while whoever made them feels validated by "science", when they absolutely nothing but a red herring, exactly like "gambling sells" has no place as an argument when discussing if videogame gambling is harmful.
The "critiques" you tend to find often basically amount to 'Women put less effort in making artwork that requires lots of talent/skill/work," or "Yet another Calarts visual style," "The female brain is less inclined to be proficient at doing work that requires mathematics," etc.
This is flat out untrue obviously and it takes less than two minutes to google several notable women concept artists who easily make work that's as detailed and complicated as anything painted by a dude. Also there was a gallery artist I saw, and I can't remember her name and have spent hours trying to find her stuff online again, but she hand drew these 3D mesh grids in pen but they were bent and contorted into complex, wavy shapes and it all looked quite meticulous. It gave you that brainbreaking feeling of looking at some baroque art or cubist paintings. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
This is flat out untrue obviously and it takes less than two minutes to google several notable women concept artists who easily make work that's as detailed and complicated as anything painted by a dude. Also there was a gallery artist I saw, and I can't remember her name and have spent hours trying to find her stuff online again, but she hand drew these 3D mesh grids in pen but they were bent and contorted into complex, wavy shapes and it all looked quite meticulous. It gave you that brainbreaking feeling of looking at some baroque art or cubist paintings. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
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Anyone who says women "aren't visually minded" can't know many women, is all I can say.
Also, comparing video games (a medium) to romance fiction (a genre) is all a bit...yeah.
It's all a bit conservative, really. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. Everyone fits into their prescribed box. KNOW YOUR PLACE.
But yes, we need more women in games development. A lot more.
Also, comparing video games (a medium) to romance fiction (a genre) is all a bit...yeah.
It's all a bit conservative, really. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. Everyone fits into their prescribed box. KNOW YOUR PLACE.
But yes, we need more women in games development. A lot more.
I know the conversation is dead but don't confuse evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology. One is solid, the other is borderline pseudo that occasionally veers into utter crankery.
I'm thirsting for a new MMO to play, and was checking out progress on Ascent: Infinite Realm. Their last blog post revealed concept artwork for three classes, one of them the Warlord.
"Warlord Armor: Heavy Armor - Plate armor made mostly from steel. It provides the best protection."
"Warlord Armor: Heavy Armor - Plate armor made mostly from steel. It provides the best protection."
From the website's artist description of the class:
Police>Uniform>Chest and thigh exposure
Think I would take a chance protecting myself in that world.
If you put together all the metal in that outfit, it's almost enough for a single World of Warcraft shoulderplate!
That actually angers me because Steampunk is all about overcomplicated armor designs. Sure, you can still do cheesecake with Steampunk but it's so stupid to do something like that.
Looking at other designs, on the site they sure nailed the overcomplicated part.
I'm thirsting for a new MMO to play, and was checking out progress on Ascent: Infinite Realm. Their last blog post revealed concept artwork for three classes, one of them the Warlord.
"Warlord Armor: Heavy Armor - Plate armor made mostly from steel. It provides the best protection."
You were playing SoulWorker right? How was that in this regard?
Oh man, you don't even want to know. The game's really weird in that aspect, introducing one highly suggestive character for every respectable one they put out. It started out fairly well, the character designs were mostly rooted in modern fashion and military uniforms, but you can tell a shift in direction lead to female characters becoming more sexualized after the second story act concludes. Strangely, this is largely limited to their designs, as they all remain competent, sometimes more so than their male equals. Then there is the fact all playables are underage and get prominent pantyshot focus and an array of questionable outfits through the cash shop, and there is no way to spin that.
My expectation from the genre has really never been lower to be honest. Even the ones that has some decent options seem to eventually fall back into overly sexualised designs. BDO is of course a good example as you well know. Contrast the Sorceress which is one of the starting classes introduced to the latest class Lahn or just look at the cash shop options. -_-
I think some of the western MMOs have been pretty good, Secret World, ElderScrolls and some of the others but I seem to bounce right off in gameplay. :(
My expectation from the genre has really never been lower to be honest. Even the ones that has some decent options seem to eventually fall back into overly sexualised designs. BDO is of course a good example as you well know. Contrast the Sorceress which is one of the starting classes introduced to the latest class Lahn or just look at the cash shop options. -_-
I think some of the western MMOs have been pretty good, Secret World, ElderScrolls and some of the others but I seem to bounce right off in gameplay. :(
Really, BDO's most eregious design element for every female class is the insistance on high heels. Lahn is the first class to receive revealing outfits such as your example as regular armor, so we will see if that becomes a trend. I somehow doubt it, as it detracts from the want to buy off the cash shop. Another element, and I figure most people don't even realize this, but BDO's world is devoid of any elderly or even middle-aged women. You will find old men NPCS in any town, but I guess the women die aged 30, or stay young forever. That particular decision by the team has been questionable to me from day one.
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Ah, a lingerie knight. An essential part of the modern RPG party, they work well with the DPS titninjas.I'm thirsting for a new MMO to play, and was checking out progress on Ascent: Infinite Realm. Their last blog post revealed concept artwork for three classes, one of them the Warlord.
"Warlord Armor: Heavy Armor - Plate armor made mostly from steel. It provides the best protection."
Seriously, if they just want to make fetish outfits, why bother saying 'warlord', 'heavy armour' and 'plate armour', that might be evocative of the mechanics in game but it's not evocative of the outfit at all.
That's the interesting thing though, or at least from what I've observed. Gay doujinshi from gay men are usually more, to put it in a way, straight to the sex, but yaoi written by women usually touch on the relationship between the characters more.
Also you can definitely tell which type of gay are preferred for each demographic.
I'm just going to assume you've already tried Final Fantasy 14. It has some of the typical skimpy outfits of course, but the glamour system is robust and you can basically look however you want at high levels.
And even then you still get people who unironically ask for a "screening option" so they don't have to see men in the same skimpy outfits they see women in all the time.
The heels and revealing default armors are interesting to look at. I would say it started earlier than Lahn but wasn't as completely obvious. Kunoichi certainly had some very short shorts/skirt thing going on. Some fishnets, boob patches and what not. You literally see her underwear just from her standing straight because there are huge gaps for no reason and she has no pants for no reasons. DK is going for some kind of leather, tights and strap fetish and her cash shop costumes often just adds decorations like studs or flower ornaments. DK is also where the heels on regular armor came back and stayed. Until DK only Ranger and Valk were using heels on normal armors.
The older woman thing is interesting. I also didn't notice but I think I subconciously considered some of the non-humans females. Like those weird otter people I automatically assumed some were female. We also don't have the female giant class yet.
I didn't know that was even a thing people were demanding, ugh. Last time I played was a little after Heavensward came out and the community seemed pretty nice and relatively inclusive as far as games go (I hate that I have to say that).
I appreciate the suggestion, but after giving the game a fair try, I can say it is not for me. Looking back, I don't think any of the MMOs I had been invested in had respectable female armor design. I have grown up, but the genre has not. It's really quite frustrating.
You got me with Kuno. I forgot about her despite maining the class. I don't find the DK armor sets particularly eregious, but that's in context to the other stuff we have in the game. I guess that stems from my low expectations. The Canape boots remain a godsend, but I do wish we did not have to rely on those as much.
And get real: the female giant is never coming.
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No worries, it was the first MMO I put any serious time into after I played WoW on release, with a little dabbling into City of Heroes. I hear Black Desert is popular but don't know much about it or it's design sense. The industry as a whole has a problem with representation of women, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist in this state.
While true, I find the insistance on fetish wear for women has especially persisted in the MMO genre. Granted, the genre is close to death itself, so maybe that won't be an issue much longer.
Kind of shows how out of the loop I am with that genre then, that example pic you had in spoilers is what I would think of as a joke.
Some MMOs have completely adopted the gacha model at this point, while others seem to want to (or are trying) to slowly integrate systems similar to them, but they're basically pretty similar to popular mobile phone games, selling to whatever lowest common denominator is available while the game's still popular enough to be profitable (or until the whales start to dry up). Most of the ones that come over from Korea and Japan are particularly bad about this, since this non-game design is pretty much fully accepted in those regions (China's growing using similar models as well).
Really, it seems like popular mobile games and browser games have increased this trend, and even as competitive as the environment is now, many still attempt to use it to make a quick buck. It's not exactly difficult to make an Angry Birds or TCG, especially if you have enough cash to commission popular artists.
The gambling aspects are really the worst of it, and the exploitation of children as well (frequently playing on their parent's account).
Really, it seems like popular mobile games and browser games have increased this trend, and even as competitive as the environment is now, many still attempt to use it to make a quick buck. It's not exactly difficult to make an Angry Birds or TCG, especially if you have enough cash to commission popular artists.
The gambling aspects are really the worst of it, and the exploitation of children as well (frequently playing on their parent's account).
I was going to make this comparison to mobile games particularly of the gatcha variant. The way they push events and costumes with stuff like summer, wedding, maids, skimpy xmas elfs, halloween etc all align almost perfectly. While I wouldn't mind if this is the case but we also get quality content on the side I do feel this isn't often the case and the priority has shifted into going for what would make people spend more money which makes sense from a purely business perspective but as a consumer it simply pushes me away in the long run as legitimate gameplay content dries up and we are left with drips and drabs. Ultimately there are more games to play than linger around waiting for them to drop something worth my interest and since almost everyone has sexy costumes flooding in from all corners the game doesn't even feel special.
The gambling nature of it is another can of worms all together and one that I won't join in the rant on because I actually want to be in a good mood for the rest of the night.
That is actually not even as bad. Probably because that isn't even high level armor yet. -_-
I find some of the anime style ones to be particularly laughable.
The Paladin in Echo of Souls for example...
That said from what little I saw of Blessed Online that doesn't look too bad.
I was going to make this comparison to mobile games particularly of the gatcha variant. The way they push events and costumes with stuff like summer, wedding, maids, skimpy xmas elfs, halloween etc all align almost perfectly. While I wouldn't mind if this is the case but we also get quality content on the side I do feel this isn't often the case and the priority has shifted into going for what would make people spend more money which makes sense from a purely business perspective but as a consumer it simply pushes me away in the long run as legitimate gameplay content dries up and we are left with drips and drabs. Ultimately there are more games to play than linger around waiting for them to drop something worth my interest and since almost everyone has sexy costumes flooding in from all corners the game doesn't even feel special.
The gambling nature of it is another can of worms all together and one that I won't join in the rant on because I actually want to be in a good mood for the rest of the night.
That is actually not even as bad. Probably because that isn't even high level armor yet. -_-
I find some of the anime style ones to be particularly laughable.
The Paladin in Echo of Souls for example...
That said from what little I saw of Blessed Online that doesn't look too bad.
I...What in tarnation is that armor supposed to be covering? Literally nothing but her arm is actually armored!?!
Such hyperbole. Her armour of sideboob protection+1 clearly makes her the party tank.
Some Japanese players started asking for the ability to not see a player's glamours right after it was announced that they were going to let male characters wear the bunnysuits, for "immersion". It was transparent as all hell.
The community's generally nice, but they let the cracks show more and more the closer you get to endgame. Basically as it was in FFXI.
Hahaha, well on the plus side her armor doesn't get in the way of emergency open heart surgery on the battlefield.That is actually not even as bad. Probably because that isn't even high level armor yet. -_-
I find some of the anime style ones to be particularly laughable.
The Paladin in Echo of Souls for example...
That said from what little I saw of Blessed Online that doesn't look too bad.
The "immersion" crowd, yup I get it now... Glad I knew some nice people in the game, I mostly played with IRL friends but met some cool people in one of the larger linkshells on my server.
After sleeping on it, I think Dauntless is a prime example of how to do armor right. Armor aesthetics are essentially unisex, and on top of that, the game gives you an option to state and revise your gender identity and your character's sex at any moment, giving you more than the two archaic options for the former.
etc.
It's a great game to enjoy in short bursts as well. I can only recommend it.
It's a great game to enjoy in short bursts as well. I can only recommend it.
After sleeping on it, I think Dauntless is a prime example of how to do armor right. Armor aesthetics are essentially unisex, and on top of that, the game gives you an option to state and revise your gender identity and your character's sex at any moment, giving you more than the two archaic options for the former.
etc.
It's a great game to enjoy in short bursts as well. I can only recommend it.
I tried this but only the beta and from experience with trying betas I definitely say wait for the final product before judging.
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