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Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
The thing is, I *don't* think the ongoing faction conflict is necessarily bad or wrong. Humans (and in this case I also mean all sentient humanoids in WoW) are fucking stupid, petty, and tribal. We're facing apocalyptic climate change and most everyone in power is still just looking out for number 1. Hell, Game of Thrones (show or books) is all about how humans are too petty to come together even in the face of apocalyptic, existential disaster.

But Blizzard always hinge it on one character doing some completely out of character, cartoonishly evil dumb shit. And, granted, even that isn't that far removed from the current POTUS. But stories can be better than reality! Write this stuff in a way that isn't hilariously one-sided. It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where both the Horde and the Alliance have plenty of good and bad eggs. Maybe that's too subtle for a game like WoW. But the point is, I think there's a way to pull off the kind of story dynamics they want to establish, but they're just not doing a good or interesting job of it.

I agree with you. I think a lot of the tension comes from both sides being too far one direction. Right now the Alliance is holy and perfect and just without many flaws and my friends who play Alliance are like "it's boring"

And the Horde is always described as "savage" but their definition of that is "basically evil" and "unable to control bloodlust" so they make someone go crazy with power. I don't want to feel like I'm constantly playing the bad guy as a horde player but I also don't want everyone (either side) to be as flat as cardboard. There's got to be a balance.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,802
I agree with you. I think a lot of the tension comes from both sides being too far one direction. Right now the Alliance is holy and perfect and just without many flaws and my friends who play Alliance are like "it's boring"

And the Horde is always described as "savage" but their definition of that is "basically evil" and "unable to control bloodlust" so they make someone go crazy with power. I don't want to feel like I'm constantly playing the bad guy as a horde player but I also don't want everyone (either side) to be as flat as cardboard. There's got to be a balance.

IMO this is at least a part of the 'hype' with BFA's pre-launch, and the faction conflict being touted as 'morally grey'.

Even if we'd eventually pivot to N'zoth and the old gods, it would be a chance for the Alliance to lose some of that 'purity' and maybe do more stuff like what Greymane did on the Broken Isles, or for the horde to have a good justification for 'revenge', rather than being the aggressor (again).

And then the Sylvanas Warbringer trailer disabused that notion.
 

Bregor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,478
It would have been so easy for them to have the faction conflict start through a misunderstanding. I.E. : Azshara set Teldrasil ablaze and the Alliance just _assumed_ it was Sylvanas. Unfortunately the choice to have Sylvanas do it deliberately is a moral black hole that poisoned the whole thing right at the beginning.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
IMO this is at least a part of the 'hype' with BFA's pre-launch, and the faction conflict being touted as 'morally grey'.

Even if we'd eventually pivot to N'zoth and the old gods, it would be a chance for the Alliance to lose some of that 'purity' and maybe do more stuff like what Greymane did on the Broken Isles, or for the horde to have a good justification for 'revenge', rather than being the aggressor (again).

And then the Sylvanas Warbringer trailer disabused that notion.

Precisely. There was a huge opportunity for all of the events to be "old god influences" but instead they're actually just plot driven rather than character driven stories. Again, the twist is coming but unless we're all stuck in the Emerald Nightmare right now the choices have been made.

I mean, fuck, we as players even
deliver the fucking blade to Sylvanas
which I take as the developer's saying "well it's your fault (the players) that this ends the way it ends. thatssadhuh.gif"
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
Story is getting trasher every patch and i was one of the few bfa defenders during pre-patch. Fuck blizz writers and golden tbh, should fire all of them and hire some competent people for once.
I even have to help freaking neutralitymoore after she just finished attacking dazaralor and tried to kill me, the hero.
Next expansion should be a time skip just so we can forget this dumpster fire of a story.
 

JCizzle

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
This armor tier cosmetically is just like Uldir... very plain, basically just leveling gear. The raid armor in this expansion is such a bummer to me. Hopefully they step it up next expansion.

I should clarify: non Mythic
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,872
How is it that Sylvanas is susceptible to it but Arthas and the Scourge were fine?
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
How is it that Sylvanas is susceptible to it but Arthas and the Scourge were fine?

well I could try to find the interview but they said Garrosh was not controlled by the heart at all so I assume it's similar. NOT MISTS 2.0. I assume the knife is a key and she's not being controlled. She just has some SUPER SECRET PLOT INFO that means she'll bring about some sort of destruction for whatever reason. She probably kills Azshara and releases N'Zoth herself to kill the alliance at this point or something. T W I S T.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,073
This armor tier cosmetically is just like Uldir... very plain, basically just leveling gear. The raid armor in this expansion is such a bummer to me. Hopefully they step it up next expansion.

I should clarify: non Mythic

Blizzard: No tier sets means we can make more and better class-agnostic sets!
Also Blizzard: People transmog to what they like anyway so what the new gear looks like doesn't matter
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,872
well I could try to find the interview but they said Garrosh was not controlled by the heart at all so I assume it's similar. NOT MISTS 2.0. I assume the knife is a key and she's not being controlled. She just has some SUPER SECRET PLOT INFO that means she'll bring about some sort of destruction for whatever reason. She probably kills Azshara and releases N'Zoth herself to kill the alliance at this point or something. T W I S T.

Garrosh stronger willpower than Deathwing confirmed
 

Weebos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
Is the LFG tool server based, or is literally nobody trying to run Uldir?

I get that it's old news, but I wanted to PUG it on my Hunter so I can tame bloodbeasts.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
I'm gonna say that while it does look generic and I don't disagree I do like the Naga gear. Granted, it should be a questing reward but I'm never getting playable Jinyu so this is the closest I can get.
 

Kintaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,331
I think the Sylvanas redemption will turn out that we were all being manipulated by N'Zoth and all the shady shit she was doing was in actuality her trying to thwart the damage we were doing on behalf of N'Zoth. Sykvanas getting Xal'atath was a way to keep it from N'Zoth and perhaps to use it against him.

All the shit we are doing to help Azeroth is somehow going to be us helping N'Zoth. Just watch.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
Just tested the Hunter pet water strider on the PTR. Still gives water walking when out.
 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
Sylvanas isn't getting "redeemed" imo but her quest text when you give the blade to her make it pretty clear she knows about old gods and is aware about how their meddling has instigated faction hostility. There can never be peace as long as N'zoth continues to manipulate from a place it cant be reached.

My hunch is that she instigated the war knowing it's the only way to lure N'zoth out. It was never really about the alliance, she just needed everyone to think it was. And now a dagger that has sealed an old god away completely is in her hands...
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,073
Fun spoilers from PTR

Azshara: You see the truth now, don't you, heroes? Every move you've made has been according to my will.
Azshara: That lumbering dwarf believed you could save Azeroth by empowering your shiny little Heart. The gift of a sleeping titan.
Azshara: Yes, a titan's heart was exactly what was needed. Not to heal the world... but to shatter the prison of a god.
Azshara: The ritual nears completion. The Black Empire rises... and the world awaits its true queen.

woopsie daisy
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,128
Fun spoilers from PTR

Azshara: You see the truth now, don't you, heroes? Every move you've made has been according to my will.
Azshara: That lumbering dwarf believed you could save Azeroth by empowering your shiny little Heart. The gift of a sleeping titan.
Azshara: Yes, a titan's heart was exactly what was needed. Not to heal the world... but to shatter the prison of a god.
Azshara: The ritual nears completion. The Black Empire rises... and the world awaits its true queen.

woopsie daisy

"The King of Diamonds has been made a pawn."

At least one of the many prophecies is getting fulfilled, after nearly 3 years
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,802
Sylvanas isn't getting "redeemed" imo but her quest text when you give the blade to her make it pretty clear she knows about old gods and is aware about how their meddling has instigated faction hostility. There can never be peace as long as N'zoth continues to manipulate from a place it cant be reached.

My hunch is that she instigated the war knowing it's the only way to lure N'zoth out. It was never really about the alliance, she just needed everyone to think it was. And now a dagger that has sealed an old god away completely is in her hands...

This is potentially interesting in the 'you, the player, were the unknowing pawn of the big bad' sense, (it's been done with other MMO's before, but not too often with WoW, if memory serves - what's his name in Zul'Drak from WotLK being the first one I can think of), but I feel there's a discrepancy between this type of narrative, and throwing Sylvanas into the cartoon villain spotlight.

Of course, it could be she's taking on the 'villain' role so that the horde and alliance will solidify into a cohesive unit and become the 'dark lady' that brought Azeroth together....but that feels like an asspull too.


What I'm actually really curious on is the 'option' horde players have to keep warning Sylvanas and the potential alternate storyline - so far, both of the 2 instances so far, and the 1 on the PTR, just result in her/Nathanos telling us to 'keep doing what you're doing, it's all part of the plan'.

Like....at some point we've gotta get some actual insight into the plan/motivations you keep telling us you have, unless it's just 'fake it til you make it' - because both options have resulted in Sylvanas decidedly 'not' winning.

The cynic in me says it'll go nowhere, fast, but Blizz has 'hinted' that they'll start offering similar choices for the alliance to have to make, so we'll see.
 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
What I'm actually really curious on is the 'option' horde players have to keep warning Sylvanas and the potential alternate storyline - so far, both of the 2 instances so far, and the 1 on the PTR, just result in her/Nathanos telling us to 'keep doing what you're doing, it's all part of the plan'.

Like....at some point we've gotta get some actual insight into the plan/motivations you keep telling us you have, unless it's just 'fake it til you make it' - because both options have resulted in Sylvanas decidedly 'not' winning.

Honestly, the biggest thing that's making me think Sylvanas is not Garrosh 2.0 is that she's seems very acutely aware of the movement against her and is doing nothing to stop it, going so far as to tell players loyal to her to continue. Apparently Baine commits treason worth executing him over so she makes sure literally every important person in the world sees her arrest him which gets Thrall out of retirement and working with Alliance heroes to do it... and does nothing to stop them. It's not even really a trap, there's a few bitter elves guarding him but it seems like a pretty token resistance.

It's like her being this ruthless tyrannical figure is partially just a show.

I'm probably looking too much into it though. I think at this point, Sylv doing a swerve like that is the only thing that would salvage the story for me.
 

Bregor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,478
You guys are overthinking it. Blizzard plots are usually as obvious as the nose on your face. You'll be less disappointed if you expect the obvious (Sylvanas has some selfish and cruel objective that will be bad for both the Horde and Alliance), and then if Blizzard goes out of character and does something subtle you can be pleasantly surprised.
 

Samaritan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,701
Tacoma, Washington
Honestly, the biggest thing that's making me think Sylvanas is not Garrosh 2.0 is that she's seems very acutely aware of the movement against her and is doing nothing to stop it, going so far as to tell players loyal to her to continue. Apparently Baine commits treason worth executing him over so she makes sure literally every important person in the world sees her arrest him which gets Thrall out of retirement and working with Alliance heroes to do it... and does nothing to stop them. It's not even really a trap, there's a few bitter elves guarding him but it seems like a pretty token resistance.

It's like her being this ruthless tyrannical figure is partially just a show.

I'm probably looking too much into it though. I think at this point, Sylv doing a swerve like that is the only thing that would salvage the story for me.
So... the twist is Sylvanas is basically Batman?
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,073
You guys are overthinking it. Blizzard plots are usually as obvious as the nose on your face. You'll be less disappointed if you expect the obvious (Sylvanas has some selfish and cruel objective that will be bad for both the Horde and Alliance), and then if Blizzard goes out of character and does something subtle you can be pleasantly surprised.

Yup. Every time people try to figure out where the plot is going by guessing at some interesting twist or picking apart subtle hints they end up disappointed. It's always the obvious thing.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
Yup. Every time people try to figure out where the plot is going by guessing at some interesting twist or picking apart subtle hints they end up disappointed. It's always the obvious thing.

it's funny because just this morning I was thinking "what if her deal with Helya was to end the old god influence and the reward was a way to save her people"

but something goes wrong and somehow that sets up Helya as the big bad for a Shadowlands expansion.

Blizzard should hire me. Again. ;)
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,751
NoVA
it's funny because just this morning I was thinking "what if her deal with Helya was to end the old god influence and the reward was a way to save her people"

but something goes wrong and somehow that sets up Helya as the big bad for a Shadowlands expansion.

Blizzard should hire me. Again. ;)
plus gorak tul

plus kul tiran druidism explicitly being a form of death magic

they are absolutely setting up the shadowlands as a place we're going, the question is just to do what
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,872
Honestly, the biggest thing that's making me think Sylvanas is not Garrosh 2.0 is that she's seems very acutely aware of the movement against her and is doing nothing to stop it, going so far as to tell players loyal to her to continue. Apparently Baine commits treason worth executing him over so she makes sure literally every important person in the world sees her arrest him which gets Thrall out of retirement and working with Alliance heroes to do it... and does nothing to stop them. It's not even really a trap, there's a few bitter elves guarding him but it seems like a pretty token resistance.

It's like her being this ruthless tyrannical figure is partially just a show.

I'm probably looking too much into it though. I think at this point, Sylv doing a swerve like that is the only thing that would salvage the story for me.
So she's trying to foster peace by giving both factions a central target to blame for everything? That would be an interesting twist but everything seems to point to something else, like Sylvanas being adamant about not going to super hell in Cataclysm and us still not knowing who specifically told Vol'Jin to put her in charge, and N'Zoth being thrilled about all of this
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
it's not like they're going to set up all this shadowlands stuff and do something weird like open a portal to an alternate dimension because of BRAND SYNERGY for a theatrical movie

The revised Thrall model begs to differ. Fool me once.

Unrelated, but I'm warming up the Heart of Azeroth revamp. I wasn't against it per se but it looks better than I initially thought even if the cooldown reduction is obviously the best choice and it's just a reskinned Cata glyph system.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
You guys are overthinking it. Blizzard plots are usually as obvious as the nose on your face. You'll be less disappointed if you expect the obvious (Sylvanas has some selfish and cruel objective that will be bad for both the Horde and Alliance), and then if Blizzard goes out of character and does something subtle you can be pleasantly surprised.
Yup. Every time people try to figure out where the plot is going by guessing at some interesting twist or picking apart subtle hints they end up disappointed. It's always the obvious thing.
This is correct

this also applies to all other Blizzard games stories too
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
Unrelated, but I'm warming up the Heart of Azeroth revamp. I wasn't against it per se but it looks better than I initially thought even if the cooldown reduction is obviously the best choice and it's just a reskinned Cata glyph system.

Do you think we are going to have to still manually upgrade the heart twice on all alts? The first upgrade is easy, just visit Magni in Silithus. The second takes a little more time. The other issue is I forget which alts I've done the upgrade on. I kind of hope they wrap those in and just adjust the ilevel of the heart when 8.2 releases. It will be very confusing for new and returning players.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
Do you think we are going to have to still manually upgrade the heart twice on all alts? The first upgrade is easy, just visit Magni in Silithus. The second takes a little more time. The other issue is I forget which alts I've done the upgrade on. I kind of hope they wrap those in and just adjust the ilevel of the heart when 8.2 releases. It will be very confusing for new and returning players.

as I was watching it I kept saying "I hope hope hope these are account bound even at the very basic "you've unlocked the upgrade" level."

Though I wish all of them were account bound in general. But I think this will tip toe into the "REP SHOULD NOT EVER BE ACCOUNT BOUND" level of argument so I don't think they will be in that form.

And also, to actually answer your question because I misread it... no, I don't think so. I would bet that we're gonna have to do it each time at least for a while.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
as I was watching it I kept saying "I hope hope hope these are account bound even at the very basic "you've unlocked the upgrade" level."

Though I wish all of them were account bound in general. But I think this will tip toe into the "REP SHOULD NOT EVER BE ACCOUNT BOUND" level of argument so I don't think they will be in that form.

And also, to actually answer your question because I misread it... no, I don't think so. I would bet that we're gonna have to do it each time at least for a while.

You are probably right. They made this so much more complicated than it needed to be for such an incremental change.

I'm already waiting for the time when we can burn out our necks. The complete opposite feeling from our artifact weapons.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
You are probably right. They made this so much more complicated than it needed to be for such an incremental change.

I'm already waiting for the time when we can burn out our necks. The complete opposite feeling from our artifact weapons.

well,
Azshara uses the Heart's power against us to free N'zoth in her fight
and I think it would be HILARIOUS if we didn't use it anymore after 8.2 because of it.
 

Kintaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,331
I think next expansion will be something along the lines of Rise of the Black Empire (or The Black Empire Strikes Back). I don't think N'Zoth will be the last boss, he'll around for the next xpac imo.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
real talk but I rolled a Zandalari holy priest and I've been healing for the first time since the end of Cata and its been fun. I'm only like but having the instant queue of a tank and healer together has made these dungeons fun to blast through. I'm still scared of doing max level healing but it isn't bad so far. My best healing (and preferred class for it) is shaman but this is a nice change of pace.
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
I unlocked the Nightborne the other day as my first allied race, but I'm undecided about whether I want to roll a mage or a rogue. Mage makes more thematic sense (especially arcane), and I've never really played one, so that's a plus. But I typically prefer melee. I think I'll go with the mage tho.

Kind of moot for now though, I haven't even finished the third zone in Zandalar yet on my main, and I really want to unlock the Mag'Har, so I have a ton of stuff to do.

Out of curiosity, if I get the Argus achievements on Horde, does that count towards unlocking the Void elves and Lightforged, or do I have to do that on an alliance character?
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
I unlocked the Nightborne the other day as my first allied race, but I'm undecided about whether I want to roll a mage or a rogue. Mage makes more thematic sense (especially arcane), and I've never really played one, so that's a plus. But I typically prefer melee. I think I'll go with the mage tho.

Kind of moot for now though, I haven't even finished the third zone in Zandalar yet on my main, and I really want to unlock the Mag'Har, so I have a ton of stuff to do.

Out of curiosity, if I get the Argus achievements on Horde, does that count towards unlocking the Void elves and Lightforged, or do I have to do that on an alliance character?

It counts for both. I have all four allied races from that era and only did horde.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,692
The Great Dark Beyond
This is still one of my favorite cutscenes.



"Your father dabbled in powers beyond reckoning. Where is he now?"

giphy.gif
 

Selbran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,570
So I decided to resub for a month today after 4-5 years of not playing the game and I'm trying to catch up to all the stuff they shove in your face. I'm having an issue where I can chat because it says I don't have permission and I was wondering how long this restriction takes until it recognizes I resubbed?
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,675
Tested a few alts on PTR. Looks like a quest with Magni bumps up your neck to level 55 regardless of what it was before.
 
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