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Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
Keep calm, man, I think the abused people should complain when the "predators" are alive, just like the Weinstein cases. Because before MJ died, the two abused kids/adults should talk about it more aggressive..put MJ in jail. That's the case.
(sorry for my bad English)

Sorry man. Bad english does not excuse victim blaming. You don't get to decide when the right time is for them to come out with the horrible abuses they suffered as children...and you sure as hell don't get to judge them for doing so. MJ is not absolved of this in any way just because he's dead. That is the case.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,389
Kitchener, ON
Oh wow. That was one of the great episodes of the SImpsons, and IIRC, it was always a mystery whether that was truly Michael Jackson or not voicing the role. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jackson have it in his contract that he wouldn't be credited with doing the voice?

The inside-baseball backround of it was that it was Jackson voicing the role, but they didn't credit him at the time, right... Or, they were tongue in cheek about it? I can't remember.
Jackson was credited for the role as "John Jay Smith" but the show's creative staff has always been forthright about Michael doing all of the voicework for Leon with the exception of singing "Happy Birthday, Lisa"... which Michael wrote but was unable to perform legally due to contractual red tape. Kipp Lennon recorded the song for the show (although I'm fairly certain there's a recording of the song floating around out there that Michael sang himself).
Didn't they say that one of the conditions for Jackson to do the voiceover was that the character had to spend the night in Bart's room? I think maybe it was the DVD commentary where they said that.
You've twisted that somewhat. Thankfully Michael's suggestion wasn't AS disturbing as that would have been. It WAS Jackson's idea to have Leon and Bart "stay up all night" to work on Lisa's birthday song. I think it's a fair argument that Michael did transplant his fixation of young boys on to Bart... despite that he was a fictional animated character voiced by a middle-aged woman.

Incidentally, I'm not sure this decision would have been made so ostentatiously had Al Jean (the Simpsons long-time and current showrunner) not been the one who wrote Stark Raving Dad (alongside Mike Reiss). I imagine he took Michael at his word and was similarly blinded to his celebrity (as many people have been) until Leaving Neverland opened his eyes to what a monster this man was.

He afforded Jackson the benefit of the doubt... that's a perfectly human thing to do. We all make mistakes and this is the show's way of correcting one.
 
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Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
This makes no sense. If we play it that way, then there is lotsof ART ( movies, books, paintings, etc ) material we shouldn't consider anymore...

Just one example : why not stopping airing ANY John Wayne movie on TV, that guy was a racist and white supremacist.

That is up to the producers, current rights holders for those movies and the TV networks to decide. To answer your example. The Simpsons creators don't get to determine where and if John Wayne movies are aired, so it's not at all relevant to this conversation.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
What do radiostations do with all the hits of Phil Spector? Did the songs got banned?
Or was there much discussion to do this?
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
Jackson was credited for the role as "John Jay Smith" but the show's creative staff has always been forthright about Michael doing all of the voicework for Leon with the exception of singing "Happy Birthday, Lisa"... which Michael wrote but was unable to perform legally due to contractual red tape. Kipp Lennon recorded the song for the show (although I'm fairly certain there's a recording of the song floating around out there that Michael sang himself).

You've twisted that somewhat. Thankfully Michael's suggestion wasn't AS disturbing as that would have been. It WAS Jackson's idea to have Leon and Bart "stay up all night" to work on Lisa's birthday song. I think it's a fair argument that Michael did transplant his fixation of young boys on to Bart... despite that he was a fictional animated character voiced by a middle-aged woman.

Incidentally, I'm not sure this decision would have been made so ostentatiously had Al Jean (the Simpsons long-time and current showrunner) not been the one who wrote Stark Raving Dad (alongside Mike Reiss). I imagine he took Michael at his word and was similarly blinded to his celebrity (as many people have been) until Leaving Neverland opened his eyes to what a monster this man was. He afforded Jackson the benefit of the doubt... that's a perfectly human thing to do. We all make mistakes and this is the show's way of correcting one.
Not to fan the thread, but



Also what about the callback last season?
Is that episode dead also?
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
What do radiostations do with all the hits of Phil Spector? Did the songs got banned?
Or was there much discussion to do this?

Some radio stations don't play his stuff anymore, some do. There aren't many Spector songs where Phil is the focal point of the track though (arguable, I know), like MJ is the focal point of this episode. Also, no one is "banning" this episode. It's just the creators are choosing to not air it anymore. It would be more like if one of the singers from the Crystals decided they wouldn't perform any Phil Spector songs anymore.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,353
What do radiostations do with all the hits of Phil Spector? Did the songs got banned?
Or was there much discussion to do this?
What bearing does this, and similar posts, have on whether the creator of something can feel uncomfortable having their work, that features a child abuser, aired any more?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,496
Henderson, NV
On Still Processing (great podcast, episode here https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/...ing-mj-michael-jackson-leaving-neverland.html) the discuss the nature of cancel culture w/r/t to MJ. They more or less settled on that with somelike MJ you can't cancel the person, especially once they've passed. It's especially hard to cancel him when his legacy and impact on pop culture has already been felt, and impacted so many others; they use the example of how he influeced people like Beyonce, JT, and many others. So in the case of MJ, removing his episode from circulation is about the best you can do but you can't simply 'cancel' his cultural impact.

Now, this changes a bit with someone like Louis CK. They had an impact and likely influenced people, but you can effectively "cancel" them from continuing to profit and have opportunities as they're still performing.

Why isn't it consistent across the board? I wish they could've pulled a Roseanne and renamed The Cosby Show into "The Huxtables" or something and reworked a residuals deal with the cast excluding Cosby. That's just an example. It still bugs me that such a significant show has been totally ERASED from history.

In the case if the Simpsons episode, I get it. With R. Kelly? I stopped listening to his music as soon as the first tape came out. Now with the reveal that all of his music is ABOUT his exploits, I totally get why you pull it from circulation.

But cancel culture definitely needs consistency and some kind of agreed upon rule set.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,231
Why isn't it consistent across the board? I wish they could've pulled a Roseanne and renamed The Cosby Show into "The Huxtables" or something and reworked a residuals deal with the cast excluding Cosby. That's just an example. It still bugs me that such a significant show has been totally ERASED from history.

In the case if the Simpsons episode, I get it. With R. Kelly? I stopped listening to his music as soon as the first tape came out. Now with the reveal that all of his music is ABOUT his exploits, I totally get why you pull it from circulation.

But cancel culture definitely needs consistency and some kind of agreed upon rule set.

What show?
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
Some radio stations don't play his stuff anymore, some do. There aren't many Spector songs where Phil is the focal point of the track though (arguable, I know), like MJ is the focal point of this episode. Also, no one is "banning" this episode. It's just the creators are choosing to not air it anymore. It would be more like if one of the singers from the Crystals decided they wouldn't perform any Phil Spector songs anymore.
Ok. Because he was involved in many many hits. And I was curious what the backlash was to him in light of MJ. Here at least I never heard a radiostation banning the songs he was involved in. Or there being much controversy about playing his produced songs here.
It is an interesting question because Phil was key in many hits. So I am curious why he doesn't get the same treatment. And how far we can go about not playing songs or other media of someone convicted of such a crime.
 

Gaia Lanzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,675
What about Space Jam? Do we re-release it without "I Believe I Can Fly" (or edit in a substitute song in its place). I'd be up for that. I can't stomach R. Kelly's voice anymore.
 

Deleted member 35598

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 7, 2017
6,350
Spain
That is up to the producers, current rights holders for those movies and the TV networks to decide. To answer your example. The Simpsons creators don't get to determine where and if John Wayne movies are aired, so it's not at all relevant to this conversation.

It is relevant. Again, I'm saying if each time we have a controversy like that we want to move on from the artist, we won't have much Art left. Trust me on that...

It's not just about the producers of the Simpson. We've seen stadium or museums removing statues of MJ. But is it the same for everybody ? Roman Polansky is still benefiting from his work. He even won an oscar for the Pianist despite raping a druging a 14 years girl in the 70s.

I think a real debate is needed. Should we forget about the artistic work of convicted or suspected offenders ? Should we stop listening MJ's music ? Shall we refrain from watching again House of Cards ? Should the John Wayne statue be removed from Orange County airport ? I don't know. It's a delicate subject with no easy answer.
 

Tom Nook

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,792
Such a memorable episode but understandable.

You can still get the Season 3 DVD set dirt cheap.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
What bearing does this, and similar posts, have on whether the creator of something can feel uncomfortable having their work, that features a child abuser, aired any more?
Yeah maybe you are right. I get it is like some of the bands choosing not to play the songs he produced anymore.
I saw it more in the broad range I see everywhere. Where they say they are not going to play MJ songs anymore.
So in my mind this lies in the same line of pulling content where he starred in, but I concede the point you made. You are correct. But maybe this is the wrong thread posting this.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
It is relevant. Again, I'm saying if each time we have a controversy like that we want to move on from the artist, we won't have much Art left. Trust me on that...

It's not just about the producers of the Simpson. We've seen stadium or museums removing statues of MJ. But is it the same for everybody ? Roman Polansky is still benefiting from his work. He even won an oscar for the Pianist despite raping a druging a 14 years girl in the 70s.

I think a real debate is needed. Should we forget about the artistic work of convicted or suspected offenders ? Should we stop listening MJ's music ? Shall we refrain from watching again House of Cards ? Should the John Wayne statue be removed from Orange County airport ? I don't know. It's a delicate subject with no easy answer.
That is certainly true.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,231
I think a real debate is needed. Should we forget about the artistic work of convicted or suspected offenders ? Should we stop listening MJ's music ? Shall we refrain from watching again House of Cards ? Should the John Wayne statue be removed from Orange County airport ? I don't know. It's a delicate subject with no easy answer.

It's an entirely case by case basis. As I mentioned already, even if we "cancel" MJ from media (music, TV, radio) his impact on people has already happened (Good or bad). Very popular artists and influencial people would cite Jackson as icons to them (Beyonce & JT for example). To truly "cancel" MJ would mean needing to cancel them too, in some regards. At best we can hope to have companies remove royalty rights for things like House of Cards, but there is probably contractual bullshit to deal with. This is a whole new territory for rights and media holders.

It's also important to asses the art for what it's trying to be and do. Someone like Louis CK or Aziz literally benefit from their art & it's relation to their personal life. MJ has songs that do (Leave me Alone) but then also songs that were directly related to his life w/r/t to the allegations. However, by still even listening to the music you're providing "support".
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,496
Henderson, NV
It being pulled does not mean it's "erased from history". For better or worse, it was a cultural show given when it came out and the portrayl it went for. TV critics and historians can still very much discuss the show.
Really? Okay, so deservedly, Bill Cosby became pariah. So no, there's not going be continued conversations about him. As for the show, if you can't watch it, doesn't it fade? Out of sight, out of mind? If you want to erase a show from history, this is definitely the pathway to doing it. All you need to do is remove it's availability from the eyes of the next generation and it's gone.

I can still watch episodes of "I Love Lucy", or "Threes Company" and the show will never fade from memory. The Cosby Show has effectively been 'erased' if you can't see it anywhere.

But circling back to the topic, I'm okay with cancel culture as long as the ramifications are fully considered. It shouldn't just be 'reactionary', and it also needs consistency.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,677
It is relevant. Again, I'm saying if each time we have a controversy like that we want to move on from the artist, we won't have much Art left. Trust me on that...
This is not the case, it is a very small percentage of artists who ever undergo this scrutiny, there is plenty of art out there. Besides, it isn't destroyed, no art is really being destroyed, it's still there.
As for the show, if you can't watch it, doesn't it fade? Out of sight, out of mind?
As do all things over a long enough timeline. Things change, that's just reality.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,231
Really? Okay, so deservedly, Bill Cosby became pariah. So no, there's not going be continued conversations about him. As for the show, if you can't watch it, doesn't it fade? Out of sight, out of mind? If you want to erase a show from history, this is definitely the pathway to doing it. All you need to do is remove it's availability from the eyes of the next generation and it's gone.

I can still watch episodes of "I Love Lucy", or "Threes Company" and the show will never fade from memory. The Cosby Show has effectively been 'erased' if you can't see it anywhere.

But circling back to the topic, I'm okay with cancel culture as long as the ramifications are fully considered. It shouldn't just be 'reactionary', and it also needs consistency.

It's still on Amazon Prime and iTunes
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,496
Henderson, NV
It's still on Amazon Prime and iTunes
Well that's good to hear. They must've brought the show back. Right around the time when the trial was happening it was pulled from EVERYWHERE. I'm really glad to see that turnaround.

But yeah, that still doesn't change how we deal with the problem. People don't want to financially support somebody they despise, which is totally fair. However, there are other people affected too. I think that the way it was handled with Roseanne is ideal. Rename the show or something and rework the residuals so that everyone else can still live.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,124
NYC
I posted some article in that other thread about Radio stations not playing his music anymore prior to this happening. So it's not the first, but it is a trend that will hopefully continue as this documentary hits more eyeballs and people understand what kind of monster MJ really was.
I mean, that doesn't exactly feel like a lasting thing. Not playing his music for a few months while it's in the public consciousness seems more ephemeral than striking him from pop culture outside of radio playlists.
 

Nerdkiller

Resettlement Advisor
Member
53551189_10102783205591173_238445808200974336_n.jpg
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
Thought same.

Unrelated I don't think they ever stopped running the Naked Gun Movies despite having a fucking murderer on there.

The Simpsons creators aren't involved with airing Naked Gun movies. "They" is not some nefarious group out there trying to "ban art" or "erase history". These are the creators of the show, The Simpsons, who don't want an episode THEY made, that turns out to be about a child rapist, to be aired on TV anymore. They aren't the ones deciding if Phil Spectors music gets played, or if OJ's books get sold, or if radio stations play Michael Jacksons music, but they have every right to have a say in how and where and which of their shows are aired.

Even if you are going to assume someone Al Jean has some say in whether or not Naked Gun gets shown, Naked Gun isn't about OJ Simpsons. He plays a character called Nordberg, but that's it.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,389
Kitchener, ON
Thought same.

Unrelated I don't think they ever stopped running the Naked Gun Movies despite having a fucking murderer on there.
There's s a bit of a difference in context.

The movie wasn't a cartoon. Naked Gun isn't still in the public spotlight. Nordberg wasn't portrayed as doing the same kind of criminal actions that O.J. Simpson was guilty of in real life. Nordberg wasn't deified, called out by his actor's name and spent the brunt of those movies as a clown on the receiving end of physical comedy.

giphy.gif
giphy-downsized-medium.gif


So it's not quite the same thing.

And, if Naked Gun's producers requested that the movies not be shown again, that would have still been fine.
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
I thought it would only be from tv and streaming but apparently it won't even be in future box sets.
Honestly, it kind of sucks.
 

Kreed

The Negro Historian
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,113
It's going to be crazy when/if shows start removing Thriller parodies.
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
It being pulled does not mean it's "erased from history". For better or worse, it was a cultural show given when it came out and the portrayl it went for. TV critics and historians can still very much discuss the show.

I love how Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz wrote about Cosby in their book on the greatest shows of all time, TV (The Book): Two Experts Pick the Greatest American Shows of All Time -

My son looks at me hopefully and asks, "Dad, when are we going to watch another Cosby Show?"

My daughter grimaces and tells him we won't be watching it anymore. Unlike him, she's old enough to understand why our marathon viewing of The Cosby Show has come to an end, even if, thankfully, she's not yet old enough to fully comprehend the sheer horror of the acts in question.

And I shake my head and wish I'd never introduced them to the show in the first place.


If you want to avoid the work of an artist whose personal activities and views you find questionable, that's your prerogative, and everyone draws that line in a different place. You might view Mel Gibson as an anti-Semite, racist, and misogynist and still have to stop channel surfing whenever you land on the torture scene from Lethal Weapon; or you might hold your nose about the various scandals and accusations in Woody Allen's past when you watch his latest film; or shrug off memories of Alec Baldwin's last six public tantrums because you really want to see the 30 Rock where Jack role-plays as Tracy's dad. Saints are rare in any profession, let alone the entertainment industry, and chances are you adore the work of someone whose presence you wouldn't tolerate if you spent an hour getting to know them as a person.

With Bill Cosby, though, there's no easy way to separate the art from the artist. The preponderance of testimony against him is horrifying, painting him as a serial predator of women on a level that can't be rationalized away. And Cosby and Cliff Huxtable are as intertwined as any actor and character in TV history—including the ones like Ozzie Nelson and Jerry Seinfeld, who, like Cosby, more or less played themselves.

Cosby and his alter ego had different names, professions, and levels of income and fame, but in all ways that mattered to the audience, Cosby was Cliff and vice versa. They had the same number of kids with the same gender breakdown. Theo in particular behaved exactly like how Cosby had described his son, Ennis, in his comedy act, and in many episodes, The Cosby Show simply felt like a dramatization of the Bill Cosby: Himself stand-up concert. They had the same cultural interests, the same attitudes about parenting, and the same desire to lecture others about both. This was a sitcom-as-lifestyle-manual, and the only difference at times between the show and some of Cosby's own jeremiads against the state of black America was that the show had a lot of great jokes surrounding the harangues.

Because Bill and Cliff were one and the same, and because the show was so clearly bent on educating as well as entertaining, there's no way to watch a second of it now without flinching at thoughts of what Cosby allegedly did to all those women, and at the unmitigated hypocrisy of the whole enterprise.

Sadly, it is impossible to revisit these milestones without imagining the horror happening behind the scenes of their creation. As this book went to press, Bill Cosby stood accused of drugging and raping more than fifty women in incidents spanning decades. The details are so sickening that it seems blasphemous to point out the cultural collateral damage caused by his crimes; but that damage is real, too, and germane to this book: More than fifty years' worth of innovative popular culture has been soiled in the public imagination by a crime spree spanning half a century. It is now impossible to thrill to I Spy, imitate Fat Albert, swap lines from classic Cosby records like Sports, Revenge, or 200 M.P.H., or joke about Cliff Huxtable's sweaters or the family's dance moves in the show's opening credits, without shuddering with revulsion. Cosby's entire career has become a minefield of accidental reminders of the crimes he's accused of committing. His album titles It's True! It's True!, For Adults Only, Bill Cosby Is Not Himself These Days, Inside the Mind of Bill Cosby, and Bill Cosby Talks to Kids About Drugs now seem like accidental confessions or sick jokes. Worse still is the season 7 Cosby Show episode "The Last Barbecue," in which guests at a cookout become more amenable to sex when they sample Cliff's special sauce. "Haven't you ever noticed after people have some of my barbecue sauce, after a while, when it kicks in, they get all huggy-buggy?" he asks Clair, leering. "Haven't you ever noticed that after one of my barbecues, and they have the sauce, people want to get right home?"

Everything that was once funny, sexy, or inspiring about Cosby is unsettling now. Every value he claimed to stand for has been revealed as a lie. Everything he said or did, achieved or touched, has an asterisk, including his most significant achievement, The Cosby Show. The series was credited with single-handedly reviving the family sitcom at a time when the TV business had just about given up on it, and with changing national attitudes about race with its depiction of an admirable, relatable, upper-middle-class black family. It did all these things and more. Its legacy shouldn't be forgotten. It was a great show, but one that nobody will want to watch again for a very long time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,231
I love how Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz wrote about Cosby in their book on the greatest shows of all time, TV (The Book): Two Experts Pick the Greatest American Shows of All Time -

See, this is a good example of how you can discuss the show. You can say how it was a cultural touchstone and then dive into the problem with revisiting it given the news of Cosby. It's a way of discussing art & artist, and how nuance needs to be applied to the topic.
 

Karish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,531
I'm on team disclaimer. To pull this episode is lame IMO. Also make a donation to charities. Do something real.
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
Funny enough, I thought it was just an impersonator who voiced that classic character lol.

I too get that Lisa It's Your Birthday song in my head all the time

They pretended it was and didn't credit MJ because the record company (Sony?) wouldn't give MJ permission to do the episode. So they worked round it


I'm so glad I bought the DVD sets now and have this on my NAS
 
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