Should there be a new OT?

  • Yes

    Votes: 420 52.9%
  • No

    Votes: 374 47.1%

  • Total voters
    794

jungius

Member
Sep 5, 2021
2,668
www.vg247.com

"Being acquired is a stepping stone to having your studio shut down" Gaming founders and CEOs speak out on the current state of the industry

We speak to several video game CEOs about the dangers of acquisition, following Microsoft's gutting of Tango Gameworks, Arkane Austin, and more.

One source – when asked if they'd want to be acquired by Microsoft or Sony right now, even with the huge influx of cash that would bring - painted a clear picture.

"F**********ck no. Its just too clear that being acquired is a stepping stone on the path to having your studio shut down for no good reason other than to meet a giant corporation's fiscal quarter goals," the source, who wishes to remain anonymous, told VG247. "I guess if my only other option was to shut down anyway, we might as well get acquired to delay that a bit and line my pockets. But that's not the case right now."


its like choosing sudden or slow painful death
 
Jul 28, 2020
680
$70 a year only COD tier is real.

Tbh, I think a good way for Microsoft to improve Gamepass' fortunes would be to increase the minimum term. So, perhaps COD is only included if you have a 12 month sub.

That, to me, would be a good deal. For Microsoft they don't have to worry about people buying a one month sub to rinse the campaign and move on. For COD players (who buy the game annually anyway) they get the choice of buying the game outright as usual or paying a bit more for an annual sub and getting everything else Gamepass has to offer too.
 
Dec 11, 2017
2,656
So, how are thread regulars feeling about their future with Xbox after a few days have passed?

With regards to the console itself, I'm out. Game Pass is subbed until the end of this year and I'm not convinced I'll stay on that either.

Everything is far too haphazard and doesn't really sell any sort of vision or plan. They shoot from the hip constantly and try and react when it's all too late.

Very gloomy, but I just don't see console sales improving or Game Pass subs suddenly exploding. FWIW, I have appreciated the variety of titles and genres they have managed to release over the years, regardless of their quality.
 

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
6,193
Jez says Friends & Family Game Pass plan might be dead. Completely forgot about that so no surprise.
Yeah, dead tired of being the best value in gaming.

Tbh, I think a good way for Microsoft to improve Gamepass' fortunes would be to increase the minimum term. So, perhaps COD is only included if you have a 12 month sub.

That, to me, would be a good deal. For Microsoft they don't have to worry about people buying a one month sub to rinse the campaign and move on. For COD players (who buy the game annually anyway) they get the choice of buying the game outright as usual or paying a bit more for an annual sub and getting everything else Gamepass has to offer too.

I don't think that would work.
 

Ash_Greytree

Member
Oct 31, 2023
455
So, how are thread regulars feeling about their future with Xbox after a few days have passed?

I lurked for a good while before ever making an account, does that make me a regular?

Any which way:

I'm keeping my Game Pass and my Series X. I expect a new hardware iteration of some sort to show up. I'm getting that too.

I'm also making a gaming PC and planning on getting the Switch 2.

My gaming habits by and large will be me swapping between those 3 platforms as I fancy. I think that the Xbox ecosystem/UI/etc. will persist for a good long while still, either through enthusiast-focused more-expensive-than-now hardware made by Xbox themselves or through partnerships with companies like Lenovo to make bespoke Xboxen a la the Steam Machine, and maybe even Windows getting an Xbox mode that boots your PC with the full Xbox OS. Xbox will simply be one of three different places that I get my games as I focus more on my Switch 1 and Switch 2 library and build up a roster of PC games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,910

Microsoft:

7gP-aK.gif
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,714
Maybe Phil isn't hiding. Maybe they've chained him to his desk to prevent him from going out there and saying something that will be used against him the next time Microsoft does something dumb or controversial.
 

happy2501

Member
Jan 12, 2024
302
I dont understand how people act like Arkane got closed because of one miss? It's weird people act so angely around these studios and most of them probably actually worked in a corpo so they should understand it's different than letting an NBA player go who misses a shot in finals.

Prey came out in 2017. Their next game came out in 2023; Redfall. Redfall did not sell even a bit. So now what? Support the studio no matter what? Look that's my utopia too cuz i want Prey 2, Ghostwire Osaka and everything. But Microsoft, sadly, closes studios that would close if they were independent. 150 people in Tango is too much for one AAA in 4-5 years which will sell 4 million. They needed Hi-Fi Rush to be sth like at least Rift Apart.

To me it's totally understandable but i dont agree with decision. I think they needed to invest into those studios maybe in a smaller scaler for the sake of Gamepass. But I dont understand people who act like Microsoft closed Hades or Dead Cells or Cuphead either.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,505
United States
Someone at inXile or The Coalition or id or Rare was about to pitch their own HFR/Grounded/Pentiment and now they are slinking back away from the presentation hall whistling to themselves. And it pisses me off.
 

DiegoPaulino

Member
Aug 24, 2023
3,039
I dont understand how people act like Arkane got closed because of one miss? It's weird people act so angely around these studios and most of them probably actually worked in a corpo so they should understand it's different than letting an NBA player go who misses a shot in finals.

Prey came out in 2017. Their next game came out in 2023; Redfall. Redfall did not sell even a bit. So now what? Support the studio no matter what? Look that's my utopia too cuz i want Prey 2, Ghostwire Osaka and everything. But Microsoft, sadly, closes studios that would close if they were independent. 150 people in Tango is too much for one AAA in 4-5 years which will sell 4 million. They needed Hi-Fi Rush to be sth like at least Rift Apart.

To me it's totally understandable but i dont agree with decision. I think they needed to invest into those studios maybe in a smaller scaler for the sake of Gamepass. But I dont understand people who act like Microsoft closed Hades or Dead Cells or Cuphead either.

Arkane Austin wouldn't hurt much If Phil wasn't less than a year saying that he would never shut them down for one miss and the Xbox team would help them to, not only make Redfall good, but give them support for their next project.
 

Caiusto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,057

Nothing against you but you keep sharing these uninformed takes from random people and it just adds nothing to the discussion.

"Don't listen to her, she's a liar, look the bar went up a lot, the cameraman got her lmao"
And like, yeah, they added ABK to their revenue in Q4. The line will go up, but if you spend 2 minutes looking at the data you'll realize things aren't magically well.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,356

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,792
So when do we expect the gamepass reshuffle and what do you expect the prices to be?

$20 a month for Ultimate with first/third party Day 1 (cannot stack and need to pay to upgrade the difference). Ultimate perks only?

$15 a month for regular Gamepass, up from 10.99 with all additions. First party delayed 6 months.

$10 Core. I expect them to give away the multiplayer for several games in addition to the initial small collection.

I feel like whenever the major shift happens outside of just price increases, it will be before Gears 6 lands no matter what
 

NDA-Man

Member
Mar 23, 2020
3,259
I dont understand how people act like Arkane got closed because of one miss? It's weird people act so angely around these studios and most of them probably actually worked in a corpo so they should understand it's different than letting an NBA player go who misses a shot in finals.

Prey came out in 2017. Their next game came out in 2023; Redfall. Redfall did not sell even a bit. So now what? Support the studio no matter what? Look that's my utopia too cuz i want Prey 2, Ghostwire Osaka and everything. But Microsoft, sadly, closes studios that would close if they were independent. 150 people in Tango is too much for one AAA in 4-5 years which will sell 4 million. They needed Hi-Fi Rush to be sth like at least Rift Apart.

To me it's totally understandable but i dont agree with decision. I think they needed to invest into those studios maybe in a smaller scaler for the sake of Gamepass. But I dont understand people who act like Microsoft closed Hades or Dead Cells or Cuphead either.

Thing is... they didn't kill Arkane after one miss (albeit you're right that they had, aside from the first Dishonored, not a ton of success to their name). They kept them open for a year, and by all accounts, Arkane were earnestly trying to make good on the deluxe edition bonuses and were literally weeks away from having a patch to make the game playable offline. And until the closure, I'd thought they would at least fulfill those promises--because Xbox management said they were behind Arkane doing that. They also said that Hi-Fi exceeded their expectations. That they had been more than happy with how Hi-Fi had gone, and were going to invest more in Tango. They said the multiplatform initiative would prevent further layoffs.

That's what's gotten people upset, more than just the closures. It's the rapid, no-warning about face from everything they were saying even weeks ago. Like... being an Xbox fan has been rough for a fair amount of time, but like, Gamepass was terrific for us, and the fact that they were approving experimental games that most AAA studios wouldn't was refreshing... like the common refrain when the multiplat announcement hit was along the lines of "but they're just about to finally get exclusives" (which I always thought as too little, too late). My thoughts on exclusivity was really a "so what?" sorta thing. But what happened Tuesday really casts a shadow over Xbox... because it means that the oddball stuff that was actually super interesting coming from a huge pub is dead and buried.

I never bought the Good Guy Phil stuff. But I at least felt that supporting lower-tier stuff was genuine--ID@Xbox, stuff like Grounded, SoD, Hi-Fi Rush. As much as it was clear that they needed to step in more when studios are in chaos (Initiative, Arkane in the leadup to Redfall, 343i), the fact was they let studios do some super unique shit. And whether it's true colors time or he very suddenly ran out of time to show results, that era of Xbox is over.
 
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jungius

Member
Sep 5, 2021
2,668
So when do we expect the gamepass reshuffle and what do you expect the prices to be?

$20 a month for Ultimate with first/third party Day 1 (cannot stack and need to pay to upgrade the difference). Ultimate perks only?

$15 a month for regular Gamepass, up from 10.99 with all additions. First party delayed 6 months.

$10 Core. I expect them to give away the multiplayer for several games in addition to the initial small collection.

I feel like whenever the major shift happens outside of just price increases, it will be before Gears 6 lands no matter what

this is a nightmare scenario
 

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
6,193
I dont understand how people act like Arkane got closed because of one miss? It's weird people act so angely around these studios and most of them probably actually worked in a corpo so they should understand it's different than letting an NBA player go who misses a shot in finals.

Prey came out in 2017. Their next game came out in 2023; Redfall. Redfall did not sell even a bit. So now what? Support the studio no matter what? Look that's my utopia too cuz i want Prey 2, Ghostwire Osaka and everything. But Microsoft, sadly, closes studios that would close if they were independent. 150 people in Tango is too much for one AAA in 4-5 years which will sell 4 million. They needed Hi-Fi Rush to be sth like at least Rift Apart.

To me it's totally understandable but i dont agree with decision. I think they needed to invest into those studios maybe in a smaller scaler for the sake of Gamepass. But I dont understand people who act like Microsoft closed Hades or Dead Cells or Cuphead either.

Set that aside for a moment, you don't think it's an issue that Xbox has effectively been lying about the benefits of GamePass for their developers, and more specifically lied about Tango and Austin's futures?
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,792
this is a nightmare scenario

It feels inevitable. They have to take a gradual step in removing the day 1 releases rather than do it suddenly I bet.

Ubisoft+ and EA pro being less than 20 for their day 1 makes it feel like MS will absolutely match. Especially when it's no longer the cornerstone of the platform and just an accessory to the hardware they sell. I treat all these services like a month long rental now I turn on and off.
 

Rychu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Utah, USA
I dont understand how people act like Arkane got closed because of one miss? It's weird people act so angely around these studios and most of them probably actually worked in a corpo so they should understand it's different than letting an NBA player go who misses a shot in finals.

Prey came out in 2017. Their next game came out in 2023; Redfall. Redfall did not sell even a bit. So now what? Support the studio no matter what? Look that's my utopia too cuz i want Prey 2, Ghostwire Osaka and everything. But Microsoft, sadly, closes studios that would close if they were independent. 150 people in Tango is too much for one AAA in 4-5 years which will sell 4 million. They needed Hi-Fi Rush to be sth like at least Rift Apart.

To me it's totally understandable but i dont agree with decision. I think they needed to invest into those studios maybe in a smaller scaler for the sake of Gamepass. But I dont understand people who act like Microsoft closed Hades or Dead Cells or Cuphead either.
Phil said exactly one year ago that Arkane Austin was completely safe after Redfall and would not be shut down. He also said that it wasn't Arkane's fault Redfall was a mess but Xbox leadership for not giving them any guidance or resources and being completely hands off.

You can bring other bombs like Prey from 2017 into the discussion but that will never change that Phil went back on his word that he said just a year ago to journalists that Arkane Austin is safe and will be making more games under Xbox and will not be shut down.

Sarah Bond saying two months ago that Tango just had their 14th birthday and here's to many more birthdays to come. All of the leadership saying that they are very happy with HiFi Rush and the accolades it got and Tango is safe. Phil saying that studios like Tango are what Xbox needs more of and that they need to grow their first party developers in Japan, that they will invest in Tango for them to make new games.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,356
So when do we expect the gamepass reshuffle and what do you expect the prices to be?

$20 a month for Ultimate with first/third party Day 1 (cannot stack and need to pay to upgrade the difference). Ultimate perks only?

$15 a month for regular Gamepass, up from 10.99 with all additions. First party delayed 6 months.

$10 Core. I expect them to give away the multiplayer for several games in addition to the initial small collection.

I feel like whenever the major shift happens outside of just price increases, it will be before Gears 6 lands no matter what
I can't really imagine there being a day one tier and a 6 month tier. At least, not for just $5 apart. Who would sub for $15 month for 6 month old titles when in 6 months those games are probably half off or more. Especially being subbed *consistently*.
 

Rychu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Utah, USA
I can't really imagine there being a day one tier and a 6 month tier. At least, not for just $5 apart. Who would sub for $15 month for 6 month old titles when in 6 months those games are probably half off or more. Especially being subbed *consistently*.
I think they either need to completely get rid of Core or merge Xbox Game Pass standard (for $11) with Core. It makes absolutely zero sense to have 25 games and online multiplayer for $10 or hundreds of games with no multiplayer for $1 more. The current pricing structure is just stupid.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,792
Phil said exactly one year ago that Arkane Austin was completely safe after Redfall and would not be shut down. He also said that it wasn't Arkane's fault Redfall was a mess but Xbox leadership for not giving them any guidance or resources and being completely hands off.

You can bring other bombs like Prey from 2017 into the discussion but that will never change that Phil went back on his word that he said just a year ago to journalists that Arkane Austin is safe and will be making more games under Xbox and will not be shut down.

Sarah Bond saying two months ago that Tango just had their 14th birthday and here's to many more. All of the leadership saying that they are very happy with HiFi Rush and the accolades it got and Tango is safe.

He basically put the games failure at Bethesda feet. Their leadership and management team where responsible for greenlighting it's and producing it. It was just after the deal finalized and they were still very hands off. After the reshuffle earlier this year that is very clearly no longer the case.

I can't really imagine there being a day one tier and a 6 month tier. At least, not for just $5 apart. Who would sub for $15 month for 6 month old titles when in 6 months those games are probably half off or more. Especially being subbed *consistently*.

You skim the market where you can. I see Sony selling access to PlayStation 1 games for 3 extra bucks a month and think it's laughable when all those games are $10 or less on the store, but enough people pay. Ultimate will be the steaming and perk tier essentially. Just like with any subscription service, they are banking on people simply forgetting to change it after upgrading.
 

canderous

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 12, 2020
8,830
I think they either need to completely get rid of Core or merge Xbox Game Pass standard (for $11) with Core. It makes absolutely zero sense to have 25 games and online multiplayer for $10 or hundreds of games with no multiplayer for $1 more. The current pricing structure is just stupid.
It's dumb but it's also designed to just get you to subscribe to ultimate. Working as intended
 

Clippy

Member
Feb 11, 2022
2,198
There's no easy fix for GamePass, and I don't know what they're going to do with it.
Yeah, especially as Xbox exclusivity goes away completely. What everyone who's defending that immediately brings up is that Xbox is still the only place to get the great value that is game pass. But even if that's effectively going away as a day-1 service or getting real expensive, then what's left for Xbox? A controller? If it's a money loser they have to change something, but also I don't see touch it and still have a platform left (and they probably don't have no matter what they do).

But considering that, maybe the real answer is that they don't have to solve this once the console dies, and they can just focus on selling games on Steam and other consoles. Maybe the problem just solves itself like that.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,356
I think they either need to completely get rid of Core or merge Xbox Game Pass standard (for $11) with Core. It makes absolutely zero sense to have 25 games and online multiplayer for $10 or hundreds of games with no multiplayer for $1 more. The current pricing structure is just stupid.
Idk. $18 a month is the maximum the market seems to be priced at. EA Play Pro, UBI+, PS+ Premium, GPU are all $17 or $18. Going higher than that doesn't seem likely, for now.

It is a bit stupid. Microsoft probably wants to get rid of the base game pass console tier asap or figure out some new structure. They don't advertise it on the home page and hide it for a reason. It's simpler to look at what Core offers vs. what Ultimate offers and the price differential.

660eaf60ec691043fe7dd29b53c370d0.png


Only clicking on "See More Plans" does Console appear. But then how do you reconcile PCGP vs Console? They're not going to get rid of PCGP having access to everything. Core is useless on PC. PC is their only real opportunity of growth and that would massively hamstring it.

Dunno what their plan is. Maybe when everything becomes unified in 2026 they do a restack.
 

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
6,193
Yeah, especially as Xbox exclusivity goes away completely. What everyone who's defending that immediately brings up is that Xbox is still the only place to get the great value that is game pass. But even if that's effectively going away as a day-1 service or getting real expensive, then what's left for Xbox? A controller? If it's a money loser they have to change something, but also I don't see touch it and still have a platform left (and they probably don't have no matter what they do).

But considering that, maybe the real answer is that they don't have to solve this once the console dies, and they can just focus on selling games on Steam and other consoles. Maybe the problem just solves itself like that.

With everything we've heard and everything that's been reported I think they probably do put COD in there day one, but I think if that happens, there's going to be a lot more cuts and closures. I don't know, there's no easy fixes in sight and I just don't see how they carve out a decision that pleases their existing audience while not further breaking trust or creating more problems.

Even then, say GamePass subs skyrocket thanks to COD being on there (I don't think this will happen) and they hit their insanely high targets they needed to hit, those were devised before they owned COD, so the number they need to hit would be even higher, I just don't see how any of this ends well.
 

Hawk269

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,073
As a long time Xbox fan, I still consider the Xbox my favorite console/hardware maker etc. They have a ton of games I like and I enjoy the diversity in the games line up. But to be honest, some of the things they have been doing lately just baffles me. While the thought of Gamepass was pretty clever in a bubble, long term I am not sure if it is viable to keep it going. I suppose there is no turning back, but I just feel things will get worse for Xbox and Xbox fans.

They just don't seem to have a good handle on how run things with all these devs. It was one of the worrying things I thought of as they were collecting all these studios...how will they manage them all? I mean lets look at something like Forza Motorsport from one of the best developers ever and their pedigree of releasing high quality racing games...Forza Motorsport fell flat for many and just looking at the leaderboards for the game they are no where the amount of players than any of the past titles. When a new Motorsport would come out, I would play it for hundreds and hundreds of hours...I might have maybe 15 hours in the new game....it has gotten better but the way it was released just killed it.

That is just one of many examples of mis-management at Xbox. It is just a sad state and I am not sure if I feel confident that they can turn it around. With all the bad news, we will see what happens at the showcase but I am not holding my breath for anything special.

While I own all the consoles and a high end PC, I just tend to game a lot more on my Xbox consoles...but I just am not feeling confident that the current leadership can handle it and it seems like decisions are coming at people that look at Excel and make decisions that way. The comment from Booty saying they need more games like Hi Fi Rush right after they killed Tango is just bizzare and then Sarah's comments or lack of comments is also a horrible sign that they don't know what they are doing.
 

jungius

Member
Sep 5, 2021
2,668
I think they either need to completely get rid of Core or merge Xbox Game Pass standard (for $11) with Core. It makes absolutely zero sense to have 25 games and online multiplayer for $10 or hundreds of games with no multiplayer for $1 more. The current pricing structure is just stupid.

I felt they did this to push people subbing ultimate, which make me fear if they introduce new tier the 15$ one will be full of compromise to push people subbing for the new one.
 

DiegoPaulino

Member
Aug 24, 2023
3,039
So when do we expect the gamepass reshuffle and what do you expect the prices to be?

$20 a month for Ultimate with first/third party Day 1 (cannot stack and need to pay to upgrade the difference). Ultimate perks only?

$15 a month for regular Gamepass, up from 10.99 with all additions. First party delayed 6 months.

$10 Core. I expect them to give away the multiplayer for several games in addition to the initial small collection.

I feel like whenever the major shift happens outside of just price increases, it will be before Gears 6 lands no matter what

Better to rip the band-aid: made one tier copying PSN+ so they can still sell CoDs for 70 Dollars without making excuses.
 

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
6,193
The most workable solution would be to just tear everything down and start over, reset everything in terms of expectation and what their services deliver, but at the same time, I think that'd kill them.

There isn't a fix I can think of where the cure isn't just as bad as the illness. Maybe they just pray the math all just works out.

I honestly don't think they are gonna try anything at all until after COD this year on GP. Maybe a price increase, I guess. 😬

I'd assume you're right, but I can't imagine that being the long-term solution, or even really the short term one.

When COD goes in, and they run the numbers on how much they lost out on, alarm bells are going to be going off in the higher ups offices. Again.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
5,031
I think they either need to completely get rid of Core or merge Xbox Game Pass standard (for $11) with Core. It makes absolutely zero sense to have 25 games and online multiplayer for $10 or hundreds of games with no multiplayer for $1 more. The current pricing structure is just stupid.

You're basically saying they should make online free, which I'd like but don't see how the current model doesn't make sense outside of the naming. You're paying for online, you're paying for a library of games, or your paying for both
 

Rychu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Utah, USA
You're basically saying they should make online free, which I'd like but don't see how the current model doesn't make sense outside of the naming. You're paying for online, you're paying for a library of games, or your paying for both
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying they can eliminate Game Pass standard and merge it into Core or they can eliminate Core and add online multiplayer as a benefit of getting Game Pass standard (which would increase the price of online multiplayer by $1).
 
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