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Firenoh

Member
Mar 7, 2019
3,467
You can not introduce a weaker console later into a cycle. That won't work from a software delivery standpoint, because you can't force devs to update (down-scale) the already released games to work on Lockhart. Either you launch with it - or you won't do it at all.
But what's the point of a Lockhart on launch when you can play 1080p Halo Infinite on a Xbox One S or X for cheaper?
 

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
Just because it isn't on the market won't mean games won't support it. There is also a likeliness that lockhart will be what is sitting in xCloud.
There is some truth to this, although I still think it's not clever to force studios to optimize a game for a platform you can't even buy at that point. Timing is tricky, I agree, but I'd go with it on day one. Also helps to get the messaging right from the start.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,289
Hamburg- Germany
Just because it isn't on the market doesn't mean games won't support it. There is also a likeliness that lockhart will be what is sitting in xCloud.

It really doesn't make sense to complicate your supply chain during the release season when your high end model will fly off shelves.

If they release a weaker console later games released before would need a patch at least and I think it wouldn't make sense marketingwise to release a weaker console later.

"Now with less power and less resolution for less money than ever before" ? Don't think that will ever happen to be honest.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,821
There is some truth to this, although I still think it's not clever to force studios to optimize a game for a platform you can't even buy at that point. Timing is tricky, I agree, but I'd go with it on day one. Also helps to get the messaging right from the start.

I'd go with day one as well, as long as the production capacity is enough to guarantee a good amount of Anaconda consoles. Don't want enthusiasts going into the store and only seeing Lockhart and PS5 on the shelf.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,821
If they release a weaker console later games released before would need a patch at least and I think it wouldn't make sense marketingwise to release a weaker console later.

"Now with less power and less resolution for less money than ever before" ? Don't think that will ever happen to be honest.

The time frame mentioned before was 2/21, which is effectively still launch window. I would assume the games would ship ready for Lockhart.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,289
Hamburg- Germany
The time frame mentioned before was 2/21, which is effectively still launch window. I would assume the games would ship ready for Lockhart.

Thanks I missed this info and now I understand your idea more clearly but I think there is no need to split as MS should have planned good enough to produce enough to please as much people as possible. The good thing is we will know everything within the next 6 month. :)
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
Great post by Klob - expected :P

I guess i also want to apologize if i was the one who started the recent conversation about confusion. Sometimes i get off on a tanget about possible scenarios and expand on that idea when it probably isn't a real concern.

Last night i just kept thinking on how they will move into next-gen with Scarlett as the launch of Phil's actual vision. And then their comment about futher generations.
I said something like lockhart is a lower-clocked anaconda (baseline clocks from factory) while the retail scarlett is overclocked with additional components (cooling,ram,ssd space). then something like once they move anaconda into the servers, they can scale according to their process and time-line. but to be honest idk how it all works lol. someone teach me de way
and when you reply make sure you say "This is the way"
 

solis74

Member
Jun 11, 2018
43,060
ZvltoIk.png

interesting..
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,821
I wonder how long until we realize that the game changing CPU and SSD don't actually change game design that much.
 

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
But what's the point of a Lockhart on launch when you can play 1080p Halo Infinite on a Xbox One S or X for cheaper?
The point is that you'll play the next-gen version of Halo Infinite on Lockhart.

How exactly this will look like can only be speculated, but stuff like raytracing, 120fps for Arena, a higher graphical fidelity, no loading times etc. are all a possibility.
 
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Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
There seems to be a certain misconception going around on what Lockhart will actually be. I see people acting like as if Lockhart is meant to be a toaster playing videogames - and this couldn't be any more wrong.
SNIP

Well said. I'm in complete agreement here and can't figure out why people seem to think Lockhart will hold things back. Everything is coming to PC!!!!
 
Jan 4, 2018
1,651
So for TGA:

Game Pass

-Control (Best Game, Best Action-Adventure, Art Direction, Audio Design, Game Direction, Narrative, Performance
-The Outer Worlds (Best Game, Narrative, Performance, RPG )
-Devil May Cry 5 (Best Action Game, Music )
-Gears 5 (Best Action Game, Audio Design, Performance )
-Metro Exodus (Best Action Game )
-Jump Force (Fighting Game )
-My Friend Pedro (Fresh Indie Game )
-Outer Wilds (Fresh Indie Game, Game Direction, Indie Game )
-Slay The Spire (Fresh Indie Game )
-Life is Strange 2 (Games For Impact )
-PES 2020 (Sports/Racing)
-Age of Wonders: Planetfall (Strategy)
-Wargroove (Strategy)

Game Pass gives me the chance to play all those nominees, and that's in addition to a lot of nominees from precedent years

I think Game Pass doesn't receive as many appreciation threads as it deserves hahah
 

Dyashen

Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,160
Belgium
So for TGA:

Game Pass

-Control (Best Game, Best Action-Adventure, Art Direction, Audio Design, Game Direction, Narrative, Performance
-The Outer Worlds (Best Game, Narrative, Performance, RPG )
-Devil May Cry 5 (Best Action Game, Music )
-Gears 5 (Best Action Game, Audio Design, Performance )
-Metro Exodus (Best Action Game )
-Jump Force (Fighting Game )
-My Friend Pedro (Fresh Indie Game )
-Outer Wilds (Fresh Indie Game, Game Direction, Indie Game )
-Slay The Spire (Fresh Indie Game )
-Life is Strange 2 (Games For Impact )
-PES 2020 (Sports/Racing)
-Age of Wonders: Planetfall (Strategy)
-Wargroove (Strategy)

Game Pass gives me the chance to play all those nominees, and that's in addition to a lot of nominees from precedent years

I think Game Pass doesn't receive as many appreciation threads as it deserves hahah

Easily one of the best things to come out of this gen.

KQTWbK0.gif
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,354
Control is coming to Game Pass!



Good grief man, my poor backlog.

I haven't played this much in ages. Recently completed Remnant From the Ashes, Outer Worlds, Devil May Cry V and moving on to Rage 2 as well.
How is this not robbery?

Game Pass is the THE most ground breaking service I've ever used. Mark my words, this will rock the entire industry come Scarlet launch.
 

Hudsoniscool

Banned
Jun 5, 2018
1,495
You can not introduce a weaker console later into a cycle. That won't work from a software delivery standpoint, because you can't force devs to update (down-scale) the already released games to work on Lockhart. Either you launch with it - or you won't do it at all.
Well not acording to Tom warren. And yes it would work fine. Just like ms is probably telling devs if you want to release on andaconda you must also release on Lockhart they could do the same thing. 'If you want to release COD next on andaconda you must also release it on Lockhart when it launches 6 months later'.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
It's possible he just misspoke, or there are ongoing negotiations that he thought were completed. Or he may have said it as a hypothetical without really thinking about how it'd be heard and then didn't think to go back on it. There's a lot of options here besides someone lying.
Come on now if that was the case he would've clarified it on Twitter or something. 505/Rememdy likely wants continued sales until an official announcement
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
Damage control?? Can't imagine Phil lied.

Same here. Phil to me doesn't seem to be that guy but I also don't believe he did this intentionally to put Remedy or the publisher at an disadvantage or whatsoever. Absolutely no reason for that. I say this because I saw some posters saying it was a shitty move by Phil. That implies he did this to mess with Remedy. Which I don't believe at all.
 

DntSpwnOnMe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
550
Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but this quote from Tom Warren has me thinking that the PS5 and Anaconda won't be as close as everyone seems to think.

Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,289
Hamburg- Germany
Same here. Phil to me doesn't seem to be that guy but I also don't believe he did this intentionally to put Remedy or the publisher at an disadvantage or whatsoever. Absolutely no reason for that. I say this because I saw some posters saying it was a shitty move by Phil. That implies he did this to mess with Remedy. Which I don't believe at all.

Of course some console warriors use this to put the blame on him as if he did it intentionally. I believe it just slipped too.
 

Steverulez

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,416
Just to play devil's advocate, what are your thoughts on this post from a verified dev:

Bad comparison when Xbox 360 was getting really going by the time Sony got their bigger more expensive turd to develop for console out in the market. The competition was already cheaper with better content and at much more mass market prices which $499 wasnt even on the lower end.

These are two boxes launching the same day (for Xbox) at the same time as the competition. MS have ambitions to go big.

I have other issues with the post but I'm not going to detail all of them, MS should go for it if thats what they want to do.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
But what's the point of a Lockhart on launch when you can play 1080p Halo Infinite on a Xbox One S or X for cheaper?
Software support for Xbox One will dry up soon enough. With Lockhart, you'll get a promise of getting the newest games for the next 5+ years. On Microsoft's side, they'll be able to offer a two year plan of 20$/month where the consumer gets the console and XGP subscription. They wouldn't be able to do that if the bill of materials is more than $480, which will most likely be the case with Anaconda.

Still, I'd prefer if Lokhart didn't exist.
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but this quote from Tom Warren has me thinking that the PS5 and Anaconda won't be as close as everyone seems to think.

Nah, I don't think that means anything about power between Scarlett and PS5. Especially after what Jason said.

Of course some console warriors use this to put the blame on him as if he did it intentionally. I believe it just slipped too.

Yeah it's just silly. But ah well.

In other news, my buddy has the new dashboard but he is NOT in preview. How did that happen? He showed me a screenshot of it too.
 

Deleted member 45460

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 27, 2018
1,492
Nah, I don't think that means anything about power between Scarlett and PS5. Especially after what Jason said.



Yeah it's just silly. But ah well.

In other news, my buddy has the new dashboard but he is NOT in preview. How did that happen? He showed me a screenshot of it too.
Someone has used his xbox at some point that is in preview and they attached that hardware to it, only way it should happen.
 

Hudsoniscool

Banned
Jun 5, 2018
1,495
Current gen games are held back by CPU, and the lack of SSD more than anything else. Devs can do a lot of tricks to upscale resolution and visual quality, but there's no getting around CPU constraints. If Microsoft decide to release a cheaper console at some point after Scarlett then as long as it shares the same CPU I can't imagine it would be a major headache for most devs.
This is Tom warren from a few days ago after saying Lockhart was back in the table.

That sure seams to me that he is saying if not seriously implied that Lockhart is supposed to come after andaconda.
 

Icky Thump

Member
Oct 30, 2017
637
There seems to be a certain misconception going around on what Lockhart will actually be. I see people acting like as if Lockhart is meant to be a toaster playing videogames - and this couldn't be any more wrong.

Lockhart will be a true next generation console with next generational components. Both devices - if this is really what they'll go with in less than a year from now (and yes, despite the Kotaku article, this is still an *if*) - Anaconda and Lockhart, will share the same solutions for CPU, memory and SSD. Especially the CPU area will be incredibly important for next generation consoles. Zen 2 will allow not only higher framerates here, but also better physics, worlds that are filled with more life, more characters on screen, better AI, more precise simulation. Simply said: it will allow *more*. In combination with incredibly fast SSD and memory solutions, this will allow devs to build next generation experiences without holding back.

When looking at scalability, doing so via GPU and resolution seems like the easiest and most obvious solution. Rendering games at 4K requires a lot of resources. Offering a console *option* that scales back on resolution but stays true on every other aspects of a game is a no-brainer in an age of dynamic resolution methods, ML upscaling, intelligent sharpening filters etc. It allows to bring down the price on that console, which might also be releant for xCloud in future, as resources mean everything in the datacenters just as much. You don't need to only have Anaconda's sitting there in a few years when many people only stream to max. 1080p devices anyway (mobile).

I keep reading goal post arguments that Lockhart might "hold next generation" back. This lacks any rationale and doesn't mirror the situation of gaming ... At all. First and foremost: why do we simply ignore that every single Xbox first-party game will still come to PC? Yesterday, today and in future? Minimum requirements to play certain games on PC will be lower than Lockhart will ever be for many, many years to come. Xbox Game Studios are used to allow great scaling of their gams for so many years already, with their PC versions even being some of the best on the PC market these days. Scalability is important. I keep refering to my personal prime example here being Sea of Thieves. The game basically runs on a toaster, yet it looks absolutely incredible at 4K/60fps on a high-end rig. I would go even one step further and say that giving your developers the task to make your games scale great *profits* a "high-end" version as performance optimizations are happening for every kind of scale level.

Scalability on Lockhart is primarily meant to be done via GPU scaling. How does a GTX 980 hold back Remedy's Control on a RTX 2080 Ti and its next generation raytracing rendering? How does the original Xbox One GPU hold back one of the best-looking games available with Forza Horizon 4 played on a PC at 4K/60 Ultra? How does a Surface Laptop 3 GPU hold back Gears 5 on being the most-impressive looking HDR/60fps game on consoles this generation? I could go on and on. The answer will always be the same: it doesn't hold it back. Lockhart will not hold back anything as the components that will allow "next generation" experiences will be there. Just at lower resolutions and/or some graphical effect sliders set to a lower value.

Price matters so, so much. Some countries are more price sensitive than others, this is absolutely a fair comment to make. Thinking about Jimmy's mom here, who just wants to get her son the newest "FIFA for a new generation" or the "Fortnite next gen update", going into a Walmart and seeing a $399 console allowing this as well as a $499 one standing next to each other (the prices are just exemplary), Jimmy's mom doesn't have many reasons to not pick the cheaper one here. Both play the same games.
I think it's ironic we are on a "hardcore-gaming" forum here but all we focus on right now is Lockhart. An optional console that is not even aimed towards "us". The actual news should be: if Lockhart on the one end exists, so does Anaconda on the other end. And this is where this situation gets interesting. It would mean MS sticked with their original plan on not only offering the lowest price console on the one end, but more importantly on the other end also the best-performing device going into next-gen. Lockhart allows Anaconda to do ... More. After all, both are just two more options to get into the Xbox / Game Pass ecosystem.

The last point I want to add something to is the "confusion for the customer" argument. I don't know where this is suddenly coming from, but it's yet another example of something that completely ignores the industry itself, other industries, PC gaming or even ... This console generation. We are not talking about MS offering 20 different kind of SKUs here. We are talking about 2. *Two*. Something console gaming customers are used to since the release of PS4 Pro already - and something customers in pretty much *every other tech area* are used to for many, many years already, with many more options that just two. There are Pro/Plus/S/Super/Light/Basic/Core versions everywhere. The tech industry has learned that you need to offer *options* to reach a broader pool of customers. And if the differentiation is as easy as it is supposed to be here - offering TWO options on both price/performance ends - I simply think talking about "confusion" here seems very much disconnected from reality. I'll totally admit one thing on this one though: Xbox *needs* to get the naming right. They shouldn't do any experiments here. Naming needs to be easy and on-point. No doubt about that.

If you followed my comments on this whole topic a bit in the past, you'll know that I'm a proponent for the Xbox two SKU strategy. Because the truth is: both Nintendo and Playstation have a much more dominant mind-share and more promiment brands than Xbox. That's simply part of the truth and that is totally fine. You just need to have a plan on how to deal with that. And going into next-gen with one device that only equals PS5 in both price and performance will not do much for your brand. It's as easy as that. You need to do things differently. And offering options left and right is something the Xbox brand is doing industry-leading moves in since Phil became the Head of Xbox. Xbox needs and wants to become a brand that stands for diversity and options in games, hardware and services.

Please keep in mind this post is built on the foundation that the Lockhart/Anaconda roadmap is happenig in 2020. I can't guarantee that - and I won't. But not doing it this way would be a wasted opportunity for Xbox, its community and more importantly its future.

So very well said. I don't get why people can't wrap their heads around this. IMO, All the complaints against really revolve around marketing strategy not this technology strategy.
 
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