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"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
Because every other great work of fiction that I like has at least 1 black guy in it. I dont think I saw one black person in a battle for the whole of middle earth. I might have missed it. It bothered me.
In video games it just doesnt bother me.
I can understand your perspective. I have been enjoying games since I owned an SNES, this can be a wonderful and fun medium that let's us experience stories and settings and experiences that nothing else can compare to. Star Wars likewise, has been a universe I loved since childhood. The chance to play in that sandbox will always be exciting to me, and I absolutely understand wanting to share that excitement with as many people as possible.
I have a strong feeling this game is going to be successful, unless the gameplay is broken and the story is garbage, and even then it still has a chance based on the brand. It has been a long time since we've had a single player star wars game, that was really interested in letting us feel like a part of that universe. Battlefront 2 had a story mode, but the game wasn't about letting us explore or let us feel like we were inhabiting that setting. It was an FPS MP focused game.
I say this because most fans who don't identify as a white man have been waiting the same as us. They've seen other games get cancelled, and heard stories of RPGs that never got approved. I think for them the frustration came from waiting so long for a chance to see themselves reflected in a SW game that they couldn't help but express disappointment when it was viewed as more of the same. That's all this really is, a disappointed reaction. If the writing is good, and the gameplay is good, the excitement will return. Right now I just think people are just not too impressed, but good writing and good performances can change that.
Modern politics can be daunting, and depressing. I sympathize with being weary from it, but most here are just trying to voice how they want things to change for the better. I think there is plenty to enjoy, and hope you can have fun as well.
all 3 of those groups are considered "white" now and benefit from whiteness in 2019.
Your point makes no sense to entire conversation. It just backs up what we are arguing in the sense that main lead characters never seem to have melanin for some reason.
Just gonna use the top(ish) of the page to quote Darryl M R 's post from the first page. I think it accurately sums up why "segmenting whiteness into nationalities" is a weak argument.
Even with the new Trilogy the poc leads, they don't really do much. In my opinion or enough for that matter compared to the lead.
Yeah well guess what? Now Irish, Italian and Jewish people are getting lots of representation. Not just as ambiguously white people, but specifically as Irish, Italian and Jewish. Wonder why that is. It couldn't possibly be that their inclusion in the majority race envelops them in the status quo that it becomes one of the default options for major media.
and that is exactly why i have an objection to using broad categories like race when defining diversity, you lose the unique aspects of different nationalities
No not just in america. Just go ask Spain and Italy or Greece, if they think non- white folks are just Greece or Italian.
There are no terms waiting to be defined; the issue is so blatantly apparent you just choose to not see it or even make an attempt to understand it. Pretty obvious which side is the actual lazy critic here.
nobody is defining diversity by race
you can't just keep saying that because it's not true
go fuck a pineapple
idk why but its funny to me that your threshold is 1.
Just 1 poc lol
Again, what finite categories of nationality do you feel should be represented in a story that doesn't take place on Earth and doesn't feature earthlings? Noticed you didn't address this when I asked earlier.
You've been spewing contrarian nonsense for a bit now. Maybe don't miss anything.
lol
I never said i was against diversity, in fact read my posts I have said that i want more PoC and women characters over white males in gaming. I explicitly said this many times.
My main objection was people using the "generic white male" criticism as a catch-all critique of these characters, that is what my problem was
My main objection was people using the "generic white male" criticism as a catch-all critique of these characters, that is what my problem was
They didn't address it when I asked earlier either. Because it's so transparently not actually about that.
I'm not one for identity politics when it comes to the most important things regarding stuff like governmental policy, electing politicians and doing important jobs.
But in regards to normal civilian shit, nobody ever died over wanting accurate representation for people who looked like them over anything else. You can make a good character no matter the color or race, and so i think it would be right for devs to start looking at what might spice up their games rather than the safe choices they always make.
People say "another white dude", because statistically, that is what is always the normal go to. just because recently we've had some stand out exceptions to the rule doesnt mean its not unfortunately the rule
But in regards to normal civilian shit, nobody ever died over wanting accurate representation for people who looked like them over anything else. You can make a good character no matter the color or race, and so i think it would be right for devs to start looking at what might spice up their games rather than the safe choices they always make.
People say "another white dude", because statistically, that is what is always the normal go to. just because recently we've had some stand out exceptions to the rule doesnt mean its not unfortunately the rule
but i feel like it misses alot of stuff about these characters
its the reason I brought up Arthur, the reason i brought up Michael, Trevor, Niko. I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone, but I just feel like reductive to group these characters into one category
I am sorry, if i was implying something else
omg bruh....
I can't even get a game with a generic asian woman as the main character
I can't get a game with a generic middle eastern man as a main character
I can't get a game with generic latina woman as a main character
And you wanna break shit down into nationality and ethnicity first???? Holy shit, baby steps dawg BABY STEPS
Can we start by just getting them in the damn game as playable fucking leads before I can starting wondering if my character is from Cambodia or Laos?!?!?!
Would you prefer the term "perfunctory white male"? If the argument is purely semantic, you've gone to excessive lengths and made non-semantic points in the effort to express your argument.
'k? Doesn't really matter to my point that in the year 2019 it'd be real nice to have a major narrative game starring a woman or a non-white guy. Just, y'know, for a change of pace. Something to stand out from the pack, as it were. Since it's not really happening anywhere else. It's a volume of work sort of criticism that only gets more poignant every time a game is released that stars a white guy when it could've starred literally anybody else.
again its not helpful...
Are Niko and Trevor to you two completely different characters or are they similar. Do they both fall under that category for you?
I dont need us to dominate every narrative as we already cast a large shadow in most things we show up in. Just want to see someone at the table.
Except horror movies cause fuck those.
Oh no that sounds really difficult to deal with. Do you want to talk about it?
The whole trailer, main character included, looks bland as hell. I wish they would make a game that isn't tied to the movies. At least Star Wars 1313 looked like it was going to show off a different setting for the series. The whole setup for this game feels bland as can be and the main character is just the icing on the cake.
I was actually kinda excited for a Star Wars game again after hearing it'll be single player with no micro transactions, but at this point the gameplay better be awesome because the story is doing absolutely nothing for me.
I was actually kinda excited for a Star Wars game again after hearing it'll be single player with no micro transactions, but at this point the gameplay better be awesome because the story is doing absolutely nothing for me.
They are different characters, but similar in some very specific ways that fall under the term you seem to revile. Both of those things can be true and can thus be considered a "perfunctory white male".
Rethink this post champ, the fact you can understand representation in regards to consumerism but not when it comes to government policy and holding power is..... uh... questionable.
Identity politics is a really suspect term bruh
The series itself went from my least favorite star wars thing to my favorite and elevated Ezra with it.
I loved Clone Wars but Rebels family dynamic elevated it a tad for me in the end.
cast was excellent
No I know,
My request of a Twi'lek is just that they are so definitively Star Wars but only get to exist secondary to others unless you get lucky with a custom character game.(Hera came close but still ended up secondary to Ezra and Sabine)
I mean as amazing as Ahsoka is she deserves a lead but hasn't gotten one outside of a book. An Ahsoka game or movie would be amazing.
Ahsoka's situation was perfect for a game like this.
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Like for real? they get that option and the luxury. While other's aren't even the norm for it to be a possibility to dig deeper then surface level. On a regular basis.
I am not being contrarian to just be contrarian, i just haven't been convinced on the opposition's arguments, their use of certain categories etc. Sorry
This is your original argument:
Which is so tone-deaf because it's an entirely different thing than what folks mean when they say "it's generic" when yet another white male character is in the leading role. I get it that you mean well, but that post is a) irrelevant to the issue at hand, completely and b) insensitive to the actual relevant problem at hand. No one is attacking white men (or you personally if you happen to be one), because this is not about you.
Not to derail but the best analogy I could make to this is that this is a similar case to people whom are against BLM. They think they're being so revolutionary with their excuse of "I don't believe in BLM because to me ALL lives matter :) :) xD" when it's even more insulting as it's passive-aggressive and dismissive. Again, it's tone-deaf -- No shit all lives matter; you're missing the entire point of the movement.
sigh, this is getting boring now
because i don't accept the categories you use as being fixed and gospel, does not mean I am tone-deaf
Really not getting the comparison. People who are against BLM tend to misunderstand it as "black lives matter more" or "black lives are what really matter," when that's it's more, "no, actually, black lives matter."
You won't be convinced.
First you, have to WANT to be convinced and the truth is that you deem your viewpoint to be superior. Even though when it comes to the game design field and creative field in this industry, the official wiki of each lead character of nearly any triple A game, puts your arguments to bed real quick. Because that's most consumer's lens, that's the publisher lens, that's the studio's lens and that's the suits lens.
I think we should elect people who have the best policy and what they can do for people, not because they happen to share the same skin color and gender as me. It would be like asking me to support a black male ultra conservative republican for President cause i 'identify' with them more just by skin color and their gender alone. Just cause you share my race or gender doesnt mean your looking out for me without the actual depth of policy and social/political views to back it up.
It doesn't hurt to have progressive social representation along with progressive policy(which is where people like AOC, Omar and such come in) and those are the ideal types of candidates, but what is being decided in washington is too important to be decided by a shallow surface level inflection that can be manipulated by people who absolutely do not have the best interest of minorities at heart.
"identity politics" is something white male politicians have been using for eons in America to get elected from the poor whites to rich elites, and in case of the lower classes, its still a form of discreet manipulation to knee jerk reactionaries. Its not something negative relegated to minorities and POC.
Aint that kinda the point tho? We should be able to be present in a story that isn't 100% tied to unique ethnic challenges.
Like thats the entire end goal, we should be able to be present in a story neutrally without any hinderance from others being able to identify and empathize.
Im just tired of any instance of our inclusion seen as "political". Like its inherently "political" that we exist.
The fact he tries to obfuscate to that level is so transparent. He got me on ignore, cuz he hasn't responded to shit
- Abusive family life
- Former military
- Lived in a world consumed by violence and atrocity
But yeah, TOTALLY superficial similarities.
pot kettle?
literally everyone views their viewpoint as being "right" or "superior"
The similarity in both critiques is in the dismissive nature of them. Both are completely missing the entire point of the issue respectively, and both are coming up with counterarguments that aren't even relevant to the problem at hand.
Man that's a low bar.
But also...why not just make him a woman? Seriously, why not? Is there any reason he needs to be a dude? And if there is, is there no way to perhaps change that? To me, it seems to speak to a certain depressing lack of imagination. We have so many stories about white men surviving in adverse circumstances. They do it in space. They do it as cowboys. As gangsters. Etc. Wouldn't it be exciting to be one of the few games that told that kind of story, but from a woman's perspective? Or from a black man's? I don't think there's ever been a big-budget narrative-focused sci-fi game starring a woman other than Horizon Zero Dawn (for certain definitions of sci-fi). Wouldn't it be awesome to break new ground like that? But no, we just get yet another white dude. Again. But hey, maybe the next time a new, exciting single-player narrative game is unveiled (because there's so many of those these days), that'll be the one that finally takes a chance. But every time it's not the one, it's depressing.
Nope not "pot kettle".
I'm just laying out the basis, for your lack of understanding or want to understand. Especially when i already put forth my counter argument to your claims of my or others definitions of the topic at hand being inherently reductionist. Even though that's not the reality of consumer products in regards to representation or european history in totality, under the same parameters. Especially this century.