Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
I have a hard time swallowing the scum!VA pill given how much effort he's put into D2/D3/D4. Give me your case there.

I'm having a hard time pinning the last scum honestly. Do I believe Stan subs in with zero energy as last remaining scum and tries to ride Ambulance's weak town cred? Anex has been pretty passive all game based on what I've read and I don't particularly hate how Captain is playing at the moment.

Really leaves as Vere/Random as potential godfather or switcher or Pancakes as the last remaining scum if you don't think VA is scum in this situation.

Pancakes > Anex > Vere?

I have no idea here.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
I'm having a hard time pinning the last scum honestly. Do I believe Stan subs in with zero energy as last remaining scum and tries to ride Ambulance's weak town cred? Anex has been pretty passive all game based on what I've read and I don't particularly hate how Captain is playing at the moment.

Really leaves as Vere/Random as potential godfather or switcher or Pancakes as the last remaining scum if you don't think VA is scum in this situation.

Pancakes > Anex > Vere?

I have no idea here.
Let me get you an answer when I'm at my PC

i dont have one.
Im just saying, its probably VA
come on Stan, I need you to give me something here
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
Let me get you an answer when I'm at my PC


come on Stan, I need you to give me something here

Well im like 2 pages off finishing the reread but...
I know im town.
Youre clearly town.
Neki i bigly town read from monkeys play.
Anex i think i townread from the believeable skittishness over the role usage/reveal.
Pancakes has just generally seemed entirely helpful and solvy through the game.
Captain being scum relies on a strange fuck up via the mods or godlike gambit skills.

This leaves Va and vere, and VA this reread has stuck out as helpful but not really that helpful and Random was an entire mess.
Of those 2 my gut is telling me that Va is the more suspect.

Its probably VA.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
Well im like 2 pages off finishing the reread but...
I know im town.
Youre clearly town.
Neki i bigly town read from monkeys play.
Anex i think i townread from the believeable skittishness over the role usage/reveal.
Pancakes has just generally seemed entirely helpful and solvy through the game.
Captain being scum relies on a strange fuck up via the mods or godlike gambit skills.

This leaves Va and vere, and VA this reread has stuck out as helpful but not really that helpful and Random was an entire mess.
Of those 2 my gut is telling me that Va is the more suspect.

Its probably VA.
Basically, my reads on VA and Pancakes are switched here, and Random's weirdness I feel has been wiped out by Vere's play the last two days, but I think we mostly agree.

I'm having a hard time pinning the last scum honestly. Do I believe Stan subs in with zero energy as last remaining scum and tries to ride Ambulance's weak town cred? Anex has been pretty passive all game based on what I've read and I don't particularly hate how Captain is playing at the moment.

Really leaves as Vere/Random as potential godfather or switcher or Pancakes as the last remaining scum if you don't think VA is scum in this situation.

Pancakes > Anex > Vere?

I have no idea here.
So, I don't really know where to go next after this, either. Pancakes has been sticking out to me today in a way no one else is, but the same could be said of EC yesterday. We could be walking into a bad vote or she might not be the last scum, but I think we're going to have to reassess the whole game with the context of however today plays out to figure this out. Tomorrow might roll around and we have new information from anex or someone unexpected dies. I think we'll have to take this one step at a time right now.

I'm going to be in and out most of the day, but I should be here for day end.

I tried to make pancakes, but I ended up with flapjacks instead. Guess I used too much synonym.

VOTE: Conditional-Pancakes
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
So, from what I know about Nat, I think Whamban (Whambulance+Stan=Whamban/Whamtastic) is pure. I can't see a situation where he follows up on Amb's posts with fake empathy, that would be off.

Speaking of town lists, I don't know how to organize the Nat/Moneki/VA relationship in my head. They can't all be scum, there's too much contradiction. For example, Monkey initially had VA as her always 1 but slowly changed her read to maybe suss and then finally he may be a murderer. VA has always had Monkey as an inspiration since jump, town forever, that hadn't changed. Nat, weirdly enough, comments on that relationship to Monkey unprompted asking why she lowered VA from her initial town level. To me, I wonder if Nat asks that question if he's paired with Moneki. I come around to no, he doesn't. It's possible that he was gauging Moneki's feelings to boost VA into a town lean but I feel like that would have an opposite reaction coming from him.

I'm still leaning bad on VA.

Vere likes VA.


(though I'd probably swap Anex and Randomless/Vere personally).

Captain likes Stan. Thinks I"m more likely scum than RandoVere.

Pancakes > VA > Anex > Captain > Random in terms of how I scum read after people D1 votes.

I'm scum reading VA too but he hasn't responded to my posts

Neki likes Pancakes slightly more than VA.

anexanhume Who do you want to flip today? I think it's clear where I'm leaning right now.

Sorry for the delay, wanted to post from desktop.

I don't trust the check on Randomless/Vere still.

100% Town
VA
Launch
Neki

Most Likely Town
Pancakes

Could Be Scum
CaptainNuevo
Anex
Verelios
Stantastic

VA doubts RandoVere check, adding them to list of potential scum.

lol that basically confirms Captain as town, though.

But I can't deny its a strong likelihood Captain is just town. I just can't buy this kind of gambit from a person who hasn't played mafia in a long long while now.

I have a hard time swallowing the scum!VA pill given how much effort he's put into D2/D3/D4. Give me your case there.

VOTE: Conditional-Pancakes

Launch doesn't like Captain or VA as scum, does like Pancakes.

Also its probably VA.

Stan likes VA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm seeing two potential candidates emerge here, VA and Pancakes.

Here's my thoughts:

I think part of the aversion to VA (meaning scum reads) is because of Launch's position and wanting to establish an alternate voice. I have to agree with Launch here though, VA's effort has been significant. It's generally the investment of all the remaining players that's giving me pause in deciding.

However, when I look at pancakes, I see someone who is never in the vote early, and also one of the people that did not switch a vote on D1. To me, this reads as someone carefully reading the room and avoiding establishing a vote record that might be problematic later. Maybe this careful consideration is just her MO, but I can't help but focus on this given the relative high quality of contribution from everyone still involved.

Vote: Conditional-Pancakes

In programming, what's the flow protocol for a stack that holds pancakes?

FILO (Flip In Ladle Out)
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
Vere likes VA.





Captain likes Stan. Thinks I"m more likely scum than RandoVere.





Neki likes Pancakes slightly more than VA.



Sorry for the delay, wanted to post from desktop.





VA doubts RandoVere check, adding them to list of potential scum.









Launch doesn't like Captain or VA as scum, does like Pancakes.



Stan likes VA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm seeing two potential candidates emerge here, VA and Pancakes.

Here's my thoughts:

I think part of the aversion to VA (meaning scum reads) is because of Launch's position and wanting to establish an alternate voice. I have to agree with Launch here though, VA's effort has been significant. It's generally the investment of all the remaining players that's giving me pause in deciding.

However, when I look at pancakes, I see someone who is never in the vote early, and also one of the people that did not switch a vote on D1. To me, this reads as someone carefully reading the room and avoiding establishing a vote record that might be problematic later. Maybe this careful consideration is just her MO, but I can't help but focus on this given the relative high quality of contribution from everyone still involved.

Vote: Conditional-Pancakes

In programming, what's the flow protocol for a stack that holds pancakes?

FILO (Flip In Ladle Out)
I should note that I was not deciding between those two candidates solely. I looked at others' votes and noticed Pancakes what I would determine to be a unique voting record style. The mode of engagement is largely conciliatory too, so this isn't only about votes for me.
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
well of the people i put in my towner list Pancakes was the one without a solid reason and more a vibe so i wouldnt really get huffy bout it, but im still gonna vote for VA because its probably VA.

But if you dont agree then
Eye_under_Stan.jpeg


Vote: VA
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
Yeah actual image, its loading fine for me so fuck if i know whats up with it, but im already in bed so i aint fixing it later nerds.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,913
the wilderness
Where is your head at?

I need to do a reread, but right now my eyes are on CaptainNuevo.

The whole game there was this elusive and unknowable piece of information that was used to prove a town status. And it was brought up often, sometimes like a shield. Add posts like the "nuclear option" one and it really makes me uneasy. Repeatedly using something invisible and unprovable as proof you're on the good side seems strange to me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
I'm here. Re-reading the Pancakes/Neki back-and-forth trying to land somewhere. I'm in back-to-back conference calls all this morning so I'm trying to split my focus. What I can say for certain still is that Neki is town, and I don't think any of their reads are malicious or willfully ignoring posts from Pancakes. Neki has been consistent with their qualms---Pancakes is wishy-washy, non-committal, and too easily shifts votes. However, Pancakes has also been consistent---they agreed with Monkey's towncore idea and has since firmly held onto the idea of town collaboration, citing it numerous times throughout this game.


I do agree with the idea, especially with how it has the effect of having us spend energy trying to identify town instead of mafia. I can see the benefits and I really like it.
Or it's trying to solve by collaborating with someone I strongly think is town.
Collaboration is fun!

Pancakes has absolutely gotten defensive to this recent prodding from Neki, but if I put myself in town Pancakes' shoes, I'd be frustrated and defensive too---not because I dislike being called scum, but because I'm being called scum for the same reason over and over and over again for nearly a week now all while providing what I view to be receipts as to why I'm not. I see consistency in Pancakes "inconsistency" but I personally don't like to call it inconsistency----I see someone willing to fully embrace that notion of town core and collaboration. As an example, Pancakes was looking for a nod of approval from both Launch and myself on moving to Bojack----by this point, she had us high up on her town list, so asking us jives with her belief in the town core and working together.

I can see how a scum player would twist and use all the above to their advantage. I really do. I don't think that is what is going on with Pancakes though.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
Pancakes is wishy-washy, non-committal, and too easily shifts votes. However, Pancakes has also been consistent---they agreed with Monkey's towncore idea and has since firmly held onto the idea of town collaboration, citing it numerous times throughout this game.
Isn't consistency incompatible with the stated attributes in the first sentence?

Is latching on to Monkey's town core the only example of consistency you're seeing, or are there other examples?
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
Isn't consistency incompatible with the stated attributes in the first sentence?

Is latching on to Monkey's town core the only example of consistency you're seeing, or are there other examples?
When I say, "Pancakes is wishy-washy, non-committal, and too easily shifts votes" I'm trying to paraphrase what I believe to be Neki's views on Pancakes. I understand how Pancakes is coming to said conclusions, but I don't agree with them. I think the view of inconsistency stems from Pancakes' embrancing of the town core philosophy and working together.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
Is latching on to Monkey's town core the only example of consistency you're seeing, or are there other examples?
As for this, the question itself makes it sound like this is just one example of consistency, but it's more than that. Whenever Pancakes shifts their views or votes with the group, she is providing another example.

And I will throw out----collaborating doesn't mean always agreeing with everyone. Pancakes and I, even viewing each other as town, have disagreed before, such as EC on our lists ( I know this isn't a dynamite example, but it's an example nonetheless).

And if Pancakes' play is to just ride the waves with others, be agreeable, and not stand out, they've done a poor job of that with Neki. That same gameplay philosophy would see Pancakes nodding along and saying things like, " I see how you'd think that, but..." Instead, Pancakes rolled up her sleeves and pushed back. A lot. And I think it's because she's entered Groundhog Day with some of these accusations.

That's just my two cents.

My PoE remains Vere, Stan, Anex.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
When I say, "Pancakes is wishy-washy, non-committal, and too easily shifts votes" I'm trying to paraphrase what I believe to be Neki's views on Pancakes. I understand how Pancakes is coming to said conclusions, but I don't agree with them. I think the view of inconsistency stems from Pancakes' embrancing of the town core philosophy and working together.
Ok, you hit the heart of my question with the last statement. Do you view Pancakes as inconsistent, or Neki's claims inconsistent with the reality? If the latter, do you think Neki is being careless and coasting on the monkey goodwill? Because there is a considerate amount of effort there on Neki's part, so a poorly constructed take like that would verge on deliberate IMO.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
And if Pancakes' play is to just ride the waves with others, be agreeable, and not stand out, they've done a poor job of that with Neki. That same gameplay philosophy would see Pancakes nodding along and saying things like, " I see how you'd think that, but..." Instead, Pancakes rolled up her sleeves and pushed back. A lot. And I think it's because she's entered Groundhog Day with some of these accusations.
I mostly agree with this, and that's a large part of the reason my vote for Pancakes is not slam dunk. That's why I tried to focus on the vote record alone, not colored by the commentary, to get a more objective view of the turn of play.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
Ok, you hit the heart of my question with the last statement. Do you view Pancakes as inconsistent, or Neki's claims inconsistent with the reality? If the latter, do you think Neki is being careless and coasting on the monkey goodwill? Because there is a considerate amount of effort there on Neki's part, so a poorly constructed take like that would verge on deliberate IMO.
I don't think Neki is coasting
I don't think Neki is being careless
I think Neki has had some really good posts about Pancakes that I just happen to disagree with. That's it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
When I say, "Pancakes is wishy-washy, non-committal, and too easily shifts votes" I'm trying to paraphrase what I believe to be Neki's views on Pancakes. I understand how Pancakes Neki is coming to said conclusions, but I don't agree with them. I think the view of inconsistency stems from Pancakes' embracing of the town core philosophy and working together.
I goofed with names above. Correction inserted!
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
And to test the house of cards theory, does anyone think it's feasible Launch was scum all along, manufactured the checks, and somehow knew that there would be no counterclaim? Moreover, does this work in both one and two remaining scum scenarios?

Is the passing of a (potentially valid in the case of one remaining scum) green check to RandoVere make the most sense for earning the trust of town at large?

I could argue that it is, given Launch investigating anyone else at that point wouldn't have made sense.

However, it has been noted that Launch surviving this king is already unexpected. At some point it flips to scum expecting us to eliminate him because he hasn't been NKed.

The only reason I consider it is that's it tough to construct a PoE list without a wild alternate theory like this, at least for me.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
No one has responded to the idea that the Kopite and Zipped night kills point back to Pancakes that I laid out in an earlier post. I think the reactionary approach Pancakes has taken is one thing, but it's in combination with the rest that it makes a case. Does anyone have any thoughts on that angle?
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
And to test the house of cards theory, does anyone think it's feasible Launch was scum all along, manufactured the checks, and somehow knew that there would be no counterclaim? Moreover, does this work in both one and two remaining scum scenarios?

Is the passing of a (potentially valid in the case of one remaining scum) green check to RandoVere make the most sense for earning the trust of town at large?

I could argue that it is, given Launch investigating anyone else at that point wouldn't have made sense.

However, it has been noted that Launch surviving this king is already unexpected. At some point it flips to scum expecting us to eliminate him because he hasn't been NKed.

The only reason I consider it is that's it tough to construct a PoE list without a wild alternate theory like this, at least for me.
giphy.gif
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,897
And to test the house of cards theory, does anyone think it's feasible Launch was scum all along, manufactured the checks, and somehow knew that there would be no counterclaim? Moreover, does this work in both one and two remaining scum scenarios?

Is the passing of a (potentially valid in the case of one remaining scum) green check to RandoVere make the most sense for earning the trust of town at large?

I could argue that it is, given Launch investigating anyone else at that point wouldn't have made sense.

However, it has been noted that Launch surviving this king is already unexpected. At some point it flips to scum expecting us to eliminate him because he hasn't been NKed.

The only reason I consider it is that's it tough to construct a PoE list without a wild alternate theory like this, at least for me.
But more seriously---it's possible, but I am stuck in my belief that Launch was purposefully left alive because of godfather, of which there is 0% chance we don't have a godfather.

No one has responded to the idea that the Kopite and Zipped night kills point back to Pancakes that I laid out in an earlier post. I think the reactionary approach Pancakes has taken is one thing, but it's in combination with the rest that it makes a case. Does anyone have any thoughts on that angle?
I got tied up in the Neki stuff and honestly didn't see this. I'll go take a look, but it might be a bit before I respond since I've been neglecting work.
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
No one has responded to the idea that the Kopite and Zipped night kills point back to Pancakes that I laid out in an earlier post. I think the reactionary approach Pancakes has taken is one thing, but it's in combination with the rest that it makes a case. Does anyone have any thoughts on that angle?

I did read it and it has merit. I personally would always kill a doctor over a vig if I had the opportunity as scum but the past two games (this and Automata) have seen the claimed vig die before the doctor. I also would have killed the cop before either of those but there is just not enough kills to go around.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
I think anex gets town points for that paranoid post. I was waiting to see who would take EC's bait because that would be batshit for scum to try to push
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,918
Maryland
No one has responded to the idea that the Kopite and Zipped night kills point back to Pancakes that I laid out in an earlier post. I think the reactionary approach Pancakes has taken is one thing, but it's in combination with the rest that it makes a case. Does anyone have any thoughts on that angle?
I wonder if this is maybe too obvious? Overtly silencing opposition is a risky endeavor. I remember reading back in Thing where I had shared suspicions with my night chat partner and they took that back to scum. Their shared opinion seemed to be they'd try to steer me elsewhere in the thread. I assumed that would be the default preference.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
I did read it and it has merit. I personally would always kill a doctor over a vig if I had the opportunity as scum but the past two games (this and Automata) have seen the claimed vig die before the doctor. I also would have killed the cop before either of those but there is just not enough kills to go around.
Most people didn't believe Zipped was the doctor, though. That's what makes it such a weird kill.
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
Town would have been dumb to try to kill Zipped given no one counter claimed. Look at how hard it was to kill Monkey in Automata with a doctor claim even after she was tracked to the night kill. Town would have been dumb for even trying to kill Zipped and I doubt it would have gotten that far, Zipped was one of the last people I was telling to test the claim for personally.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,688
And yet, I was one of only three people who believed Zipped was telling the truth on D3. At least, that's what people were saying. 👀