LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,691
I wonder if this is maybe too obvious? Overtly silencing opposition is a risky endeavor. I remember reading back in Thing where I had shared suspicions with my night chat partner and they took that back to scum. Their shared opinion seemed to be they'd try to steer me elsewhere in the thread. I assumed that would be the default preference.
In my first game as scum, I killed the person who was onto me because, at the end of the day, it's just WIFOM. However, just killed Zipped for opposing Pancakes isn't the only thing to point to. It's that it was Kopite and Zipped, and neither of them were me. I should've been dead ages ago. I don't know why I'm still here. Please someone release me from this hell.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
Will be out today with my phone so I put notices on, so if you need me just ping me.

So, I read the arguments for Pancakes and while there's some merit there I don't know how much of it is intended versus unconfident town. It's something to pay attention to and re-assess but I wouldn't place her above VA today in my mind.

I mean, there was a point today when I wondered if I was being too hard on VA and tunneling because he had some good posts evaluating people later in the day, but then I realized that those posts were predicated on being non-offending, and I realized again that, yeah, I just didn't like VA's posts or tone at all. I'll likely be voting here today.

Or, as a good friend once said, 'Time waits for no one, but we all need a hand to keep going'

Vote: Vincent Alexander
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
And, in regards to the NK order, I'm not sure what to say there since it's WIFOM. In my mind, you always kill Zipped N2 after his claim, because unless you have a Strong kill there's too much variability there. There's also almost no chance that Kop was a 2-shot vig, it's just not seen in normal design.

So, Zipped->Launch->Kop would be my preferred killing order. Kill Zipped so he can't heal, take a chance on Launch maybe hitting scum but more likely town, kill launch the next night and then kill Kop or shade him enough to vote him out.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,691
Vote out Pancakes, Vere and Anex in that order and we win the game, easy Launch.
Honestly, I think I would sooner suspect VA than Vere or anex. There might be something to what people are saying there and maybe I'm just not seeing it.

And, in regards to the NK order, I'm not sure what to say there since it's WIFOM. In my mind, you always kill Zipped N2 after his claim, because unless you have a Strong kill there's too much variability there. There's also almost no chance that Kop was a 2-shot vig, it's just not seen in normal design.

So, Zipped->Launch->Kop would be my preferred killing order. Kill Zipped so he can't heal, take a chance on Launch maybe hitting scum but more likely town, kill launch the next night and then kill Kop or shade him enough to vote him out.
You're getting my point exactly. I know there's variability, but there is an optimal path there and it just wasn't followed. I think if we were just talking about one kill, then getting lost in WIFOM is easy; but it's a pattern now. It feels like a less experienced player. Coupled with all the rest of it Pancakes' play, it paints a picture.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,691
Pancakes and VA should the the trains today, but keep an eye out for how this plays out.

Also, I'm not ready to lull myself into a false sense of security that tomorrow isn't ELo. Don't let yourselves, either.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
Honestly, I think I would sooner suspect VA than Vere or anex. There might be something to what people are saying there and maybe I'm just not seeing it.


You're getting my point exactly. I know there's variability, but there is an optimal path there and it just wasn't followed. I think if we were just talking about one kill, then getting lost in WIFOM is easy; but it's a pattern now. It feels like a less experienced player. Coupled with all the rest of it Pancakes' play, it paints a picture.
Well, yeah. I think there's something to say there. The opposite would be that they killed Kop to fake out our expectations, but again, that's unnecessary when the consequence is the doctor running free. Even if it's to fake out, it's always a matter of priorities and unlike town, scum knows Zipped is genuine.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
11,006
the wilderness
Well, collaboration is out the window – you're all very clear about that – and I'm not voting for VA.

So here's my vote.

Why shouldn't you write with a broken pencil? Because it's pointless.

VOTE: CaptainNuevo
 
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OP
MrHedin

MrHedin

Member
Dec 7, 2018
6,896
==== DAY 4 VOTES ====
Day Start

Vincent Alexander (2 votes)
Stantastic - #1,661
Verelios - #1,702

Conditional-Pancakes (2 votes)
LaunchpadMcQ - #1,657
anexanhume - #1,658

Stantastic (1 votes)
CaptainNuevo - #1,594

CaptainNuevo (1 votes)
anexanhume - #1,580 #1,658
Conditional-Pancakes - #1,711

Not voting: Neki, Vincent Alexander

Post Counts:
LaunchpadMcQ: 68 Vincent Alexander: 45 anexanhume: 44 Neki: 41 Conditional-Pancakes: 29 Stantastic: 26 Verelios: 22 CaptainNuevo: 7

Current Countdown:
3cotmdnn2t



Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
Because in the end, I want to help town to win in the way I think is right.
I don't like this. It's overly sanctimonious, and especially when it gets to the wire the best thing for town, unless you KNOW the other person is town, is to not get misvoted over a person whose alignment you don't know.

Which has me questioning why you think saying you'd die for VA is good for town.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,939
Maryland
I don't like this. It's overly sanctimonious, and especially when it gets to the wire the best thing for town, unless you KNOW the other person is town, is to not get misvoted over a person whose alignment you don't know.

Which has me questioning why you think saying you'd die for VA is good for town.
Have to agree with this, especially since all the powerful town PRs have presumably been revealed.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
I wouldn't "die for VA". Me dying isn't good for town. And I currently don't think that VA dying is good for town. I have a town read on VA.

You're all capable of murdering VA (and me) without my help.
If the vote is tied and you still don't want to vote for VA, yes you've decided that you don't care which one of you dies, and would be fine dying for VA. Absent of vote is still a choice.
 

CaptainNuevo

Mascot Maniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,006
Playing like I'm a hot dog this morning and KETCHING UP. (I'm going to say this is a joke in case I place a vote this post).

Is it, though? I don't agree at all. Because all the context has been deliberately omitted. To me, it seems to be closer to a manipulation attempt than an objective analysis. Just look at the part addressing the moment I voted for Bojack. It's framed in a way to make one think that I suspiciously said something and then the opposite right after without any sort of reasons. Conveniently omitting the fact that I repeated a bunch of times (like here, for just a quick example) that I would be willing to vote elsewhere if there was a better case. Because remember, most of us agreed to collaborate with people we were reading as town at that point. So when Launch (someone that I was heavily reading as town) posted this, it was indeed something I thought was interesting enough for me to consider switching if the people I mostly trusted also wanted to go in that direction.

And I've said the above a few times already. But sure, let's frame it like in Neki's posts...

I read Neki's analysis posts a few times already, and they come out to me as so strange and so potentially manipulative and malicious that if I wasn't so convinced that Monkey was town, I think I would be putting a vote on Neki right now.

That's part of the basis of the game at this point though, no? Almost every post is easily explainable and waved away if you introduce enough context around it. The point of isolating events like this is more of noticing how people move votes and react in the game. I see you've had more back and forth on this with Neki though so... that's between you two for now, but philosophically that's how I see the game.

I have a hard time swallowing the scum!VA pill given how much effort he's put into D2/D3/D4. Give me your case there.
I mean there's the flipside of the argument that a sole surviving scum player would have to step up to try to drive the game and put effort forth then.


That's... about all I have to directly respond to.

I'm personally not as sold on VA not being scum as you are Launch, but I'm also finding it hard to tell who I feel worse on between VA and Pancakes. I don't think either of them are reading as more scum than the other right now to me, but I've never really been good at this phase of the game (or... been to it much at all t be honest).

might as well go where I've been going for the whole game:
VOTE: Conditional-Pancakes
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,691
I don't like this. It's overly sanctimonious, and especially when it gets to the wire the best thing for town, unless you KNOW the other person is town, is to not get misvoted over a person whose alignment you don't know.

Which has me questioning why you think saying you'd die for VA is good for town.
Should've waited until VA responded before showing your hand on that, but yeah, I agreed. lol
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
11,006
the wilderness
I don't like this. It's overly sanctimonious

Yes, it kind of is. Sorry about that, that's not what I want to say. I'm tired and I was slightly angry.

What I want to say is that I don't want to vote for someone that I have a strong town read on. And you said it was just a gut feeling, I disagree. We're at day 4 and I've seen the same signs throughout the game making me believe of a town alignment. You might not be satisfied with my reading and it might "tell you nothing", but that's how I think.

Does that make me scum? I leave that up to you.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
11,006
the wilderness
That's part of the basis of the game at this point though, no? Almost every post is easily explainable and waved away if you introduce enough context around it. The point of isolating events like this is more of noticing how people move votes and react in the game. I see you've had more back and forth on this with Neki though so... that's between you two for now, but philosophically that's how I see the game.

Yes, it is the game. But a certain dose of context is always needed to make sense of anything. The thing is to know what to include and what to disregard. That's what an analysis is.

In Neki's posts there was no context, none whatsoever. You can make data talk any way you like without context...
 
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OP
MrHedin

MrHedin

Member
Dec 7, 2018
6,896
==== DAY 4 VOTES ====
Day Start

Conditional-Pancakes (3 votes)
LaunchpadMcQ - #1,657
anexanhume - #1,658
CaptainNuevo - #1,730

Vincent Alexander (2 votes)
Stantastic - #1,661
Verelios - #1,702

CaptainNuevo (1 votes)
anexanhume - #1,580 #1,658
Conditional-Pancakes - #1,711

Stantastic (0 votes)
CaptainNuevo - #1,594 #1,730

Not voting: Neki, Vincent Alexander

Post Counts:
LaunchpadMcQ: 69 anexanhume: 47 Vincent Alexander: 45 Neki: 41 Conditional-Pancakes: 38 Verelios: 29 Stantastic: 26 CaptainNuevo: 8

Current Countdown:
3cotmdnn2t



Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,002
I'm trying not to get nervous here, but I'm a little nervous. If it comes down to Pancakes and I, I have to vote Pancakes. I do not think Pancakes is scum. If Pancakes flips town, does town then come after me. Then I die, we're at last day, and town has one more shot to get it right. I've felt confident town has this, but my confidence drops out the window when I contemplate how a vote between these people go:

CaptainNuevo
Anex
Vere
Stan

Because scum is not leaving Launch and Neki.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,002
Not to throw some more suspicion on myself, but I'm surprised no one took this answer and said, "Well, if VA and Ambulance bought it, maybe one of them is the last scum and killed Zipped."

No one has responded to the idea that the Kopite and Zipped night kills point back to Pancakes that I laid out in an earlier post. I think the reactionary approach Pancakes has taken is one thing, but it's in combination with the rest that it makes a case. Does anyone have any thoughts on that angle?
Since you're here and I'm bouncing between meetings at work---could you point me to this post of yours? I must be blowing past it and not realizing or something.
 

LaunchpadMcQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,691
Not to throw some more suspicion on myself, but I'm surprised no one took this answer and said, "Well, if VA and Ambulance bought it, maybe one of them is the last scum and killed Zipped."
I had actually thought that on D3, but thought better of it. 👀

Since you're here and I'm bouncing between meetings at work---could you point me to this post of yours? I must be blowing past it and not realizing or something.
Right here:
So, this is where I'm at right now.

This is what I said at day start today. I felt like I could call with a high degree of certainty that Neki was going to be the night kill last night, but he wasn't. This is a mystery to me because Zipped, Vere, and I had more WIFOM and doubt surrounding us than Neki did, so to pick out the one player who would have the hardest time defending himself today based on his D3 standing is weird. Kopite being killed on N2 also did not feel right to me, because I just assumed Kopite had a single shot; I don't think scum assumed the same. I think I was missing pieces from this puzzle, though, and I might have found them.

I'm not going to dig up Zipped's case against Pancakes because it was conditional (😎) on Randvere being scum, but he voted her two days in a row. Simply, I think Zipped was killed partially to get Zipped off Pancake's back.

Here's another piece of evidence:





I think this could be where Pancakes realized that it was only a matter of time before Zipped was confirmed as town, and she as scum would certainly not try to counterclaim that, so in a towncore position Zipped would be able to go after her. I was immediately coming into today with the plan of having everyone mass claim to undo the Zipped knot and that was solved for me before I even had the chance.

The other thing here is the three towncore players left alive - myself, Vere, and Neki. I admit she may have pocketed me (as in, if she's scum; I've absolutely fallen for it); Vere town reads her; and Neki is somewhere in the middle, but he's not been actively gunning for Pancakes, either.

I would be able to brush off who Zipped was gunning for as the kill suspect because that's just WIFOM, but the timing of Zipped's death and the Kopite kill the previous night is a combination of facts that point in Pancakes' direction.

So, let me re-reread some of her earlier posts:

While Pancakes was adamant on trying to solve EC, EC was a safe choice to not draw attention to one's self. The case against EC was presented by Nat and myself, and I hanged out there pushing EC throughout D1. EC is anti-town by nature so he makes a good target. Tunneling in on that would give Pancakes a general air of towniness, regardless of whatever the outcome was because of some well-placed justification on how she wants to get rid of that distraction. Frankly, I don't blame her - that was a waste of time.






I've not really felt like Pancakes has led or started any wagons this game. Reviewing her D2, she accepted the case against Random based on Nat's flipped and what others had said about it. Pancakes eventually unvoted to play the part of the concerned townie after some others had raised points which favored Random. She tries to negotiate with me to vote for Bojack.

Captain presented a case on D3 where scum maybe juked a TvT D2 situation to make it seem like something bigger was going on. Pancakes was definitely on the cusp of that. It would be bold to try something like that as scum when there was no need to. But from her perspective, regardless of who flips, neither train would point back to her action here because neither was scum. It was not as risky a proposition as when a scum teammate was involved like on D1, where Pancakes did not move her vote at all.


On D3, Pancakes claimed that she was having doubts because Random's posts reading townie, but she did not state this on D2. The only reason she cited on D2 for switching off Random were that it was too quiet and that the Bojack case seemed more appealing.


Here's my last point: I mentioned an hour or so ago that scum is just trying to run the clock down. I see several people that feel legitimately lost today, but in the greater context of Pancakes' reticence to push her own directions previously, I find her reads concerning because they do not really offer a direction for today. It simply provides all the players ordered by perception, but Pancakes has not pressed anex or Captain or anyone else further in the almost 12 hours since day start.

It feels like Pancakes might be trying to run the clock down.

As you should. I'm less and less convinced that town will win this.

Seems to me you're all voting not so much on the basis of "who is town" and more on the basis of "how we think people should play the game".
Look, I'm going to level with you. If you're town, then I have no idea anymore. I strongly believe it is not Captain. You should turn your attention elsewhere and try to convince us that it's someone else.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,881
I can read this two different ways. Genuine town concern that we're floundering or scum trying to plant a seed of doubt in town's mind that they're in a rough spot when they aren't. I think the only way scum wins at this point is for town to panic, lose hope, and fall apart. I think we have 1 scum left

I'm trying not to get nervous here, but I'm a little nervous. If it comes down to Pancakes and I, I have to vote Pancakes. I do not think Pancakes is scum. If Pancakes flips town, does town then come after me. Then I die, we're at last day, and town has one more shot to get it right. I've felt confident town has this, but my confidence drops out the window when I contemplate how a vote between these people go:

CaptainNuevo
Anex
Vere
Stan

Because scum is not leaving Launch and Neki.

As you should. I'm less and less convinced that town will win this.

Seems to me you're all voting not so much on the basis of "who is town" and more on the basis of "how we think people should play the game".
Hm.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,002
I have my last meeting here shortly, then I'll be free and able to focus for the last 30-45 minutes of the day. For now, I'm going to drop a vote, but this could go either Stan or Vere at this point. I'm not seeing where Vere townreads are coming from. I'm just hoping I have enough time to find anything solid enough for people to convince them. It'll be cutting it close. For now:

Did you hear about the guy whose left side was cut off?

He died. It was pretty horrific.

VOTE: Verelios

Hrm indeed! Except when you brought it up, there was nothing to be nervous about. We weren't floundering. Here we are 90 minutes from day end and onto some bad targets. Nervous? Yep, yep.