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Disney severs ties with James Gunn after controversial tweets
- Thread starter Sibersk Esto
- Start date
How can you so clearly recognize that they are jokes while still trying to tone police something that happened almost a decade ago? That has already been apologized for? That hasn't been an issue since? This is clearly politically motivated and you're buying it wholesale.
This is nothing more than a corporation panic firing someone when they should have stood by him and reiterated his remorse for that type of humor and how much he has changed. Instead, they just abandoned a director they were happy to hire originally and in doing so put a lot of people in the firing line of ongoing harassment by alt right types.
Not only is the firing unjustified, it's dangerous.
You're misconstruing the content of some of the tweets. Just like the Alt-Right did. You even went so far to say that he threatened to rape people. That's dishonest, and you know it.
I'm no stranger to emotional reactions, but those emotional reactions are exactly what they're trying to get from us. They're fighting us, with our weapons, on Gunn's back.
First before I say anything I want to say that I am sorry the world is a shitty enough place that this happened to you. That you are entitled to feel about James Gunn however you feel right now. I'd like to say no one will condemn you for how you feel. I know I won't.
However, this discussion isn't about your own personal trauma. It's about bigger things like the growing alt right. The silencing of a active critic of our asshole president. The concept that no matter what someone does they can't grow better then their horrible past. James Gunn told bad jokes that offend you for a deeply personal reason and I respect and understand that. But those jokes were brought forward by a rapist and a Alt right propaganda pusher. And I personally can't let that slide. I'm sorry if anything I said offended you. I hope life goes better for you. Lord knows you've suffered enough.
No. We all know them. I already tried to explain them to you. And I'm very certain you don't want them explained and I'm wasting my time here.
All people were asking was to not fall for propaganda from people who hate Gunn just as much as they hate you. What you do with that, is entirely up to you.
It's so gross. The precedent this situation sets is terrifying. Roseanne was fired for being continually racist after she was called out, James Gunn was fired for jokes in poor taste from 10 years ago that he's owned up to, apologized for, and never had any issues since. We're basically saying that rehabilitation isn't worth it.
Also, John Lassiter, an actual sexual predator, was never fired. Fucking think about that one for a minute.
Quick tip: The problem is the wording.
You aren't forced to accept apologies. And it's okay.
The problem lies in the entire context of the situation and how the guy cleaned up his act and changed, he still deserves a 2nd chance for that, whatever you accept his apology or not.
You might not even talk about the guy and delete him from everything you know, he still deserves that 2nd chance, but tell me, how can you take away his 2nd chance after he proved he's now a better person, more in peace with himself and everyone else?
How would you feel if you said something that would haunt you. And after you atoned for it for years, working to be a better person, and finally get to make something you dedicate with passion, it gets taken away by people who just want to see you fall by bringing back that something that haunted you? After you worked to become a better person and you are full of love, and you lose it.
I'm not defending Gunn because he makes movies I like. I'm defending him because I believe in 2nd chances and if you work for it and you really work for it, you can make it. He's a genuine example of it, and you are throwing all away even after he made his effort.
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They'e clearly jokes and not actual threats. Pretending otherwise is arguing in bad faith. This isn't the sort of gotcha moment you are hoping for.
The one thing this whole thing reiterates is that people love their "both sides" hot takes so damn much.
Worse even... it legitimizes the "both sides" narratives, because now we're forced to fight against our own weapons. :/
I'm sure they want Gunn to be rehired so he'll continue being a pain in their ass. You make no sense.
I read his tweets and his response, along with view points from various news outlets, sorry if your personal attachment to his work is misguiding your flakey idea of accountability and responsibility, it's pretty clear cut.
He had already taken responsibility for what he said by apologizing and Disney accounted for those tweets when they hired him. They absolutely knew. You don't hire someone without vetting them. This was completely over and done with, yet the alt right dredged it up to punish someone that went after Trump. That's all this is. Hiding behind the faux moral outrage is pathetic.
"But show me where he apologized about the tweets" - a bunch of posters I've seen in these threads
On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
Ooh ooh, damn it! I missed out on being called an alt-right puppet which would have been hilarious considering my incredibly aggressive stance on anything even remotely fascist/alt-right ever since pre-Gamergate uttered the words "Zoë Quinn" the first time.
And I'll counter argument, does that mean that he doesn't deserve another chance?
You can not accept an apology and still not cry for his blood.
People don't have to accept his apology, of course. You can't make someone accept an apology. But does everyone know these tweets are from years ago and not days ago?
Because it sets the expectation that even if you change, you'll never be accepted again. It pushes the idea that rehabilitation isn't worth offenders' time. There are also no victims here, so it's really strange to not accept his growth as a human. He didn't rape, murder or molest anyone. He made bad jokes. Do you also hate Anthony Jesselnik and think he's a vile person because of jokes he makes?
Because they are just jokes. He didnt hurt anybody and its a long time ago and he apologised.
How about grow as a person yourself and stop damning everyone for eternity that steps out of the line once?
You people dont care about people growing and with that dont grow yourself.
You don't get to become a better person, ok. Not anymore.
This is kind of how I feel about the difference In perspective I grew up with in the media landscape of the 90's which was heavily about self betterment. Acceptance of mistakes, ownership and responsibility. But also moving past it. Sometimes it feels like our culture devolves in as many ways as it improves.
This is kind of how I feel about the difference In perspective I grew up with in the media landscape of the 90's which was heavily about self betterment. Acceptance of mistakes, ownership and responsibility. But also moving past it. Sometimes it feels like our culture devolves in as many ways as it improves.
Holy shit.
You guys have lost your damn minds.
You don't get to police people's opinions or bully them as "tools" or accuse them for being part of the Alt Right just because they don't agree. And before y'all come at me with that shit, no. The fucking AltRight has me as some target for god knows why (fuck y'all for logging my posts btw, hi assholes)
So sorry I ain't a part of them either
Someone has experienced personal pain and assault and that changes people's perspectives on issues.
"This is bigger than your personal pain"
What kind of holier than thou moral liberal type shit is that? Wtf?
Truly spoken as someone who's never been fucking abused or had to deal with some traumatic shit.
You guys are going stircrazy. He's a fucking white male director. His career is far from over. He will be fine. Your damn movie will still be made.
Fucking James Gunn took this news better than y'all right now, he's the one who actually lost something here.
Shape the fuck up. Take all this energy and anger and point it at Cernovich or whoever the fuck he is. Mobilize, do a public campaign to let the world know how shitty he is.
50 fucking pages of discussion like y'all think this thread is doing anything important in this matter.
You guys have lost your damn minds.
You don't get to police people's opinions or bully them as "tools" or accuse them for being part of the Alt Right just because they don't agree. And before y'all come at me with that shit, no. The fucking AltRight has me as some target for god knows why (fuck y'all for logging my posts btw, hi assholes)
So sorry I ain't a part of them either
Someone has experienced personal pain and assault and that changes people's perspectives on issues.
"This is bigger than your personal pain"
What kind of holier than thou moral liberal type shit is that? Wtf?
Truly spoken as someone who's never been fucking abused or had to deal with some traumatic shit.
You guys are going stircrazy. He's a fucking white male director. His career is far from over. He will be fine. Your damn movie will still be made.
Fucking James Gunn took this news better than y'all right now, he's the one who actually lost something here.
Shape the fuck up. Take all this energy and anger and point it at Cernovich or whoever the fuck he is. Mobilize, do a public campaign to let the world know how shitty he is.
50 fucking pages of discussion like y'all think this thread is doing anything important in this matter.
No one has to accept an apology, but there a difference between accepting and apology and not noticing people can and have changed. One is your right the other is just being petty
I don't even know who Anthony Jesselnik is. I actually don't give a shit what expectation it sets. It should set the expectation that joking about rape in that way is not fucking OK and should be follow by consequences. I also think that Cernovich is a fucking rapist who should be locked up with the key tossed away. I certainly don't think the same should happen to Gunn over this, that would be absurd.
"There are no victims here" is bullshit. Of course there are. It normalizes incredibly harmful sexist views and values which propagates throughout society and, whether Gunn intended it or not (I don't think he did), leads to systemic issues that other people are dealing with in a very real way. If you want to accept him doing that and his apology being enough, that's your prerogative and you're perfectly welcome to do that. I won't even criticize you over it to be honest. But I have no sympathy for him beyond him being a target of fascists which is incredibly regrettable but should be dealt with in several other, more effective ways than apologizing for his behavior IMO.
Of course I care about him growing as a person, good on him. I just don't care about him keeping this job when the people around him don't feel comfortable being associated with his past actions. Do you apply this logic to every alt-right person who comes out and apologizes? I sure as fuck don't, why should I apply it here? (Aside from the implication and precedent this sets in legitimizing fascists, which I will concede is a perfectly valid point.)
Yes. I don't care. I would personally not want to be associated with him until he passes my personal threshold of making up for it, which he hasn't. That's my call.
No, the defeatist point of view is assuming that the only reason people change is because they except to be forgiven by everyone else. I don't even think Gunn himself would agree with you on that point.
If I did a fucked up thing and apologized for it, I would be doing it for my own inner self, not to have some apologist pseudo-sycophants praise me for it. What the hell kind of attitude is that and what exactly does it imply if that WAS the only reason people ever changed their mind on things? Being ashamed is a good starting point. It does not come with an expectation that others will automatically hand-wave your problematic actions away.
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You're aware these tweets from from 2008 and 2009, and not yesterday? Just want to check
So, what you're saying, is that people should never change because, ultimately, they should be punished anyway?
What an incredibly defeatist point of view.
Seriously, I don't give a shit about the alt rights involvement in this, it's the fucking message it sends that makes my blood boil. James Gunn made himself a better person, owned up to everything, Disney already accepted his statements on these subjects, and now he's been fired 10 years later. Fucking come on.
How are you constantly the most on point poster in these sorts of threads? God damn, much respect.
1. Disney shouldn't be able to fire any employee over pressure from hate groups to begin with.
2. If they have a problem with him tweeting this, they should never have hired him in the first place.
3. Disney are fucking idiots for firing him now over this hate movement, but I'm still perfectly OK with him being fired, these factors aside.
Doing real work in support of rape victims, standing up and openly condemning men's violence toward women and personally doing everything realistically within one's power to oust sexist structures from my career of choice would pass my personal threshold. Again, it's perfectly fine if your threshold is lower and I don't mind that one bit - go ahead and accept his apology. But don't for a second dream that you get to shit on my standards just because they don't align with yours. I have always been incredibly consistent on these issues.
(Edit: As a meta commentary, I also find it hilarious that THIS of all topics is the first time I have been getting this much criticism over my posts on this forum when I consistently post incredibly radical stances on pretty much everything relating to politics. Good grief.)
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Wtf is your personal threshold of making up for it? 30 years instead of 10 years of abandoning the behavior?
Given everything we now know about Russian bots and the Alt-Right, are you entirely sure they did not have a hand in this so called "hate train"?
One thing I don't understand on matters like this is how companies knee-jerk a response to claims like these within days/hours of the allegations.
Surely the correct move is to announce "We hear the claims. Person X is on suspension until we've completed our internal investigation and we will announce the outcome then".
It would give time for the dust to settle and allow them to make a more informed decision .
Surely the correct move is to announce "We hear the claims. Person X is on suspension until we've completed our internal investigation and we will announce the outcome then".
It would give time for the dust to settle and allow them to make a more informed decision .
He has donated money to charities supporting rape, abuse victims, also helped LGBT programs, he's one of the most inclusive directors out there. I think he's done that now.
Eyyyyyy! Shaming other thresholds!
James Gunn was insanely active through the MeToo movement openly codeming rape and abuse. So you might want to chill a bit on tweets he made 10 years ago.
There's a reason he was an Alt Right Target, and it wasn't just because he called Ben Shapiro an asshole
There's a theory that Disney doesn't want to look bad before the Fox merger, what's with them edging the competitor was by betting on their stock prices.
So he HAS passed your personal threshold!
Now you can change your mind about him.
I've tried to keep out of this topic for a while because it'll likely be a bad idea to post in it but here we go I guess.
As a reminder, since it seems to be lost in all of this: the tweets were exactly that - tweets. Gunn did not go out and commit actual acts of pedophilia and rape etc.
Obviously if you have actually been through those things - as I have - words still hurt and those aren't topics of actual jokes but not all people get that as he obviously didn't.
But the fact is the man had poor judgement in his pre-Guardians career, owned up to it and moved on - as did the rest of the world. If you don't think Disney already knew about all of it I don't know what to tell you.
This is about the altright because it was a targeted attack to draw a response and they succeeded. Period.
As a reminder, since it seems to be lost in all of this: the tweets were exactly that - tweets. Gunn did not go out and commit actual acts of pedophilia and rape etc.
Obviously if you have actually been through those things - as I have - words still hurt and those aren't topics of actual jokes but not all people get that as he obviously didn't.
But the fact is the man had poor judgement in his pre-Guardians career, owned up to it and moved on - as did the rest of the world. If you don't think Disney already knew about all of it I don't know what to tell you.
This is about the altright because it was a targeted attack to draw a response and they succeeded. Period.
You do know people like Dave Batista have come out and supported gun. So people that know him and work with him think this is bullshit.
Ok, in that case I might very well be wrong in my stance on these issues. I hope he continues to do that. As others have said, he seems to be taking this (at least publicly) better than many posters here so while I agree that we should be calling out every piece of shit thing done by piece of shit fascists and crushing their hate movement trying to silence progressive ideas, I still don't think (nor would Gunn himself, presumably) we should be vehemently apologizing in a hand-waving manner about crude rape jokes. But yes, you could be right in terms of him doing actual activist work that I have missed as someone who doesn't follow anything around Hollywood directors aside from what I've read on this forum, in which case I am willing to rethink my stance and regardless of everything else make sure to praise what actual work he has done.
Good.
Except of your RDJ or Johnny Depp. Drugs and beating your wife totally fine, making a shitty joke, totally not cool
Making a pedo joke for a company that brands themselves on "family friendly" is probably the worst crime in Disney's eyes
Also iirc Johnny Depp was never charged with beating his wife.
He didn't make them yesterday. They've literally been sitting there before he was hired by that same company. The same company that hired him when his resume was nothing but troma b movies full of gore and crass humor and his g rated porn. Stuff he's already stopped doing 7 years ago and apologized for