Yes those are "jokes". But this man was already a grown adult when he made them.
How am i supporting an Alt Right hate train? I didn't encourage his firing, i didn't participate in any of it. I simply am disgusted by his own tweets. The alt right did not post this disgusting things HE DID.
You're misconstruing the content of some of the tweets. Just like the Alt-Right did. You even went so far to say that he threatened to rape people. That's dishonest, and you know it.
I'm no stranger to emotional reactions, but those emotional reactions are exactly what they're trying to get from us. They're fighting us, with our weapons, on Gunn's back.
As a child i was molested by a family member, the damage it has caused me in my life has caused me to go through depression, ptsd, and other mental problems. I can't speak for all victims, but when i see someone make "jokes" about raping people it fucking HURTS. im disgusted by it. I don't want anything to do with someone that can make such horrible jokes, and im saying this as a fan of both marvel movies. Sorry if you think im a tool for the alt right. I just want to tell people that i'm not an evil or malicious person because i dont accept his apology.
Edit: i didn't really want to have to admit to this, ive posted a bunch of times in this thread without mentioning it, but i feel like i need to clarify my reasons for not forgiving him, because im constantly being attacked here :\
It's so gross. The precedent this situation sets is terrifying. Roseanne was fired for being continually racist after she was called out, James Gunn was fired for jokes in poor taste from 10 years ago that he's owned up to, apologized for, and never had any issues since. We're basically saying that rehabilitation isn't worth it.This is nothing more than a corporation panic firing someone when they should have stood by him and reiterated his remorse for that type of humor and how much he has changed. Instead, they just abandoned a director they were happy to hire originally and in doing so put a lot of people in the firing line of ongoing harassment by alt right types.
Not only is the firing unjustified, it's dangerous.
Edit: i didn't really want to have to admit to this, ive posted a bunch of times in this thread without mentioning it, but i feel like i need to clarify my reasons for not forgiving him, because im constantly being attacked here :\
It's so gross. The precedent this situation sets is terrifying. Roseanne was fired for being continually racist after she was called out, James Gunn was fired for jokes in poor taste from 10 years ago that he's owned up to, apologized for, and never had any issues since. We're basically saying that rehabilitation isn't worth it.
Also, John Lassiter, an actual sexual predator, was never fired. Fucking think about that one for a minute.
The one thing this whole thing reiterates is that people love their "both sides" hot takes so damn much.
It's ironic since you're the ones conveying these people's message. You're doing exactly what they want.
You didn't read the thread, you didn't gave two f----, why you post then?
At least get into the discussion and argue against the others, but don't straight up post cookie cut responses that are only validating a bad view.
I read his tweets and his response, along with view points from various news outlets, sorry if your personal attachment to his work is misguiding your flakey idea of accountability and responsibility, it's pretty clear cut.
I read his tweets and his response, along with view points from various news outlets, sorry if your personal attachment to his work is misguiding your flakey idea of accountability and responsibility, it's pretty clear cut.
"I felt like Guardians forced me into a much deeper way of thinking about, you know, my relationship to people, I suppose. I was a very nasty guy on Twitter. It was a lot fucking edgy, in-your-face, dirty stuff. I suddenly was working for Marvel and Disney, and that didn't seem like something I could do anymore. I thought that that would be a hindrance on my life. But the truth was it was a big, huge opening for me. I realized, a lot of that stuff is a way that I push away people. When I was forced into being this" — he moved his hand over his chest — "I felt more fully myself."
And what's "this"?
"Sensitive, I guess?" he said. "Positive. I mean, I really do love people. And by not having jokes to make about whatever was that offensive topic of the week, that forced me into just being who I really was, which was a pretty positive person. It felt like a relief."
But the path Gunn took to get to such a rarefied position is as unlikely as a foulmouthed, spacefaring raccoon named Rocket winning the hearts of a grateful nation. Prior to his career supernova that was Guardians of the Galaxy in 2014, Gunn had only directed two features, 2006's Slither and 2011's Super. Both are R-rated, extravagantly violent movies that made a meager $13.1 million between them worldwide — and they're saturated with a pitch black comedy that doesn't exactly scream please hire me, Disney, to make your next blockbuster movie!
"He rides that fine line of appropriateness," Guardians star Chris Pratt gently said of the director who made him a movie star.
I hope it goes without saying that I love and support my brother James. And I'm quite proud of how kind, generous, and compassionate he is with the people in his life, whether they are friends, family, colleagues, fans, or strangers.
Since he was a kid, it was clear he had a desire (maybe destiny) to be an artist, tell stories, find his voice through comics, films, his band. The struggle to find that voice was sometimes clunky, misguided, or downright stupid, and sometimes wonderful, moving, and hilarious.
Since devoting his entire life to the Guardians movies and MCU six years ago, I've seen him channel that voice into his work on those movies and seen him transform from the guy who made up things to shock people.
I saw firsthand as he went from worrying about "softening his edge" for a larger audience to realizing that his "edge" wasn't as useful of a tool as he thought it was. That his gift for storytelling was something better.
I saw that he was more open-hearted than the guy who needed to get a rise out of people by making nasty or offensive jokes (or whatever you choose to call them--I don't think his bluer material was ever his funniest and neither does Mom).
In many respects this change in my brother was reflected in the change that the Guardians go through. I've heard my brother say many times that when Quill rallies the team with "this is our chance to give a shit"--to care--that it's the pep talk he himself needed to hear.
It's part of what made working on the Guardians movies such a rewarding experience for the cast, myself included. We managed to find ourselves involved in a big-budget superhero movie that was, at its core, deeply personal. That's a gift. And that's why it's good.
This isn't new information, by the way. It's all stuff that James has explained many times in interviews, in more detail and more eloquently. It's not some new spin. It's always been part of the story.
So I guess my hope is that fans continue to watch and appreciate the Guardians movies, not despite the fact that the filmmaker used to be kind of a jackass, but because of it. They are, after all, movies about discovering your best self.
Working on those movies made my brother a better person, and they made me one too. I'm proud of that. Peace.
You're an alt-right puppet, and you're too fucking stupid to realise it.
Do you believe people are capable of self-improvement? Or are you the kind of simple-minded fool who condemns people forever, with no chance of redemption?
On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
Because it sets the expectation that even if you change, you'll never be accepted again. It pushes the idea that rehabilitation isn't worth offenders' time. There are also no victims here, so it's really strange to not accept his growth as a human. He didn't rape, murder or molest anyone. He made bad jokes. Do you also hate Anthony Jesselnik and think he's a vile person because of jokes he makes?On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
Because they are just jokes. He didnt hurt anybody and its a long time ago and he apologised.On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
On the flip side why SHOULD everyone accept his apology? If you want to, that's fine. Why is it unacceptable that other people don't?
Ooh ooh, damn it! I missed out on being called an alt-right puppet which would have been hilarious considering my incredibly aggressive stance on anything even remotely fascist/alt-right ever since pre-Gamergate uttered the words "Zoë Quinn" the first time.
Because it sets the expectation that even if you change, you'll never be accepted again. It pushes the idea that rehabilitation isn't worth offenders' time. There are also no victims here, so it's really strange to not accept his growth as a human. He didn't rape, murder or molest anyone. He made bad jokes. Do you also hate Anthony Jesselnik and think he's a vile person because of jokes he makes?
Because they are just jokes. He didnt hurt anybody and its a long time ago and he apologised.
How about grow as a person yourself and stop damning everyone for eternity that steps out of the line once?
You people dont care about people growing and with that dont grow yourself.
You're aware these tweets from from 2008 and 2009, and not yesterday? Just want to check
So, what you're saying, is that people should never change because, ultimately, they should be punished anyway?
What an incredibly defeatist point of view.
You're aware these tweets from from 2008 and 2009, and not yesterday? Just want to checkI don't even know who Anthony Jesselnik is. I actually don't give a shit what expectation it sets. It should set the expectation that joking about rape in that way is not fucking OK and should be follow by consequences. I also think that Cernovich is a fucking rapist who should be locked up with the key tossed away. I certainly don't think the same should happen to Gunn over this, that would be absurd.
"There are no victims here" is bullshit. Of course there are. It normalizes incredibly harmful sexist views and values which propagates throughout society and, whether Gunn intended it or not (I don't think he did), leads to systemic issues that other people are dealing with in a very real way. If you want to accept him doing that and his apology being enough, that's your prerogative and you're perfectly welcome to do that. I won't even criticize you over it to be honest. But I have no sympathy for him beyond him being a target of fascists which is incredibly regrettable but should be dealt with in several other, more effective ways than apologizing for his behavior IMO.
So, what you're saying, is that people should never change because, ultimately, they should be punished anyway?I don't even know who Anthony Jesselnik is. I actually don't give a shit what expectation it sets. It should set the expectation that joking about rape in that way is not fucking OK and should be follow by consequences. I also think that Cernovich is a fucking rapist who should be locked up with the key tossed away. I certainly don't think the same should happen to Gunn over this, that would be absurd.
"There are no victims here" is bullshit. Of course there are. It normalizes incredibly harmful sexist views and values which propagates throughout society and, whether Gunn intended it or not (I don't think he did), leads to systemic issues that other people are dealing with in a very real way. If you want to accept him doing that and his apology being enough, that's your prerogative and you're perfectly welcome to do that. I won't even criticize you over it to be honest. But I have no sympathy for him beyond him being a target of fascists which is incredibly regrettable but should be dealt with in several other, more effective ways than apologizing for his behavior IMO.
Seriously, I don't give a shit about the alt rights involvement in this, it's the fucking message it sends that makes my blood boil. James Gunn made himself a better person, owned up to everything, Disney already accepted his statements on these subjects, and now he's been fired 10 years later. Fucking come on.So, what you're saying, is that people should never change because, ultimately, they should be punished anyway?
What an incredibly defeatist point of view.
Holy shit.
You guys have lost your damn minds.
You don't get to police people's opinions or bully them as "tools" or accuse them for being part of the Alt Right just because they don't agree. And before y'all come at me with that shit, no. The fucking AltRight has me as some target for god knows why (fuck y'all for logging my posts btw, hi assholes)
So sorry I ain't a part of them either
Someone has experienced personal pain and assault and that changes people's perspectives on issues.
"This is bigger than your personal pain"
What kind of holier than thou moral liberal type shit is that? Wtf?
Truly spoken as someone who's never been fucking abused or had to deal with some traumatic shit.
You guys are going stircrazy. He's a fucking white male director. His career is far from over. He will be fine. Your damn movie will still be made.
Fucking James Gunn took this news better than y'all right now, he's the one who actually lost something here.
Shape the fuck up. Take all this energy and anger and point it at Cernovich or whoever the fuck he is. Mobilize, do a public campaign to let the world know how shitty he is.
50 fucking pages of discussion like y'all think this thread is doing anything important in this matter.
Seriously, I don't give a shit about the alt rights involvement in this, it's the fucking message it sends that makes my blood boil. James Gunn made himself a better person, owned up to everything, Disney already accepted his statements on these subjects, and now he's been fired 10 years later. Fucking come on.
Wtf is your personal threshold of making up for it? 30 years instead of 10 years of abandoning the behavior?
Wtf is your personal threshold of making up for it? 30 years instead of 10 years of abandoning the behavior?Yes. I don't care. I would personally not want to be associated with him until he passes my personal threshold of making up for it, which he hasn't. That's my call.
Given everything we now know about Russian bots and the Alt-Right, are you entirely sure they did not have a hand in this so called "hate train"?He was born in '77, so technically, yes. But I just meant that he's been a right wing provocateur since before Putin's government made concerted efforts to undermine our electoral process and fracture our society. And that you should judge him more on the fact that he's an idiot and an ass than the fact he has a vaguely slavic last name.
Doing real work in support of rape victims, standing up and openly condemning men's violence toward women and personally doing everything realistically within one's power to oust sexist structures from my career of choice would pass my personal threshold.
Again, it's perfectly fine if your threshold is lower and I don't mind that one bit - go ahead and accept his apology. But don't for a second dream that you get to shit on my standards just because they don't align with yours. I have always been incredibly consistent on these issues.
James Gunn was insanely active through the MeToo movement openly codeming rape and abuse. So you might want to chill a bit on tweets he made 10 years ago.Doing real work in support of rape victims, standing up and openly condemning men's violence toward women and personally doing everything realistically within one's power to oust sexist structures from my career of choice would pass my personal threshold. Again, it's perfectly fine if your threshold is lower and I don't mind that one bit - go ahead and accept his apology. But don't for a second dream that you get to shit on my standards just because they don't align with yours. I have always been incredibly consistent on these issues.
There's a theory that Disney doesn't want to look bad before the Fox merger, what's with them edging the competitor was by betting on their stock prices.One thing I don't understand on matters like this is how companies knee-jerk a response to claims like these within days/hours of the allegations.
Surely the correct move is to announce "We hear the claims. Person X is on suspension until we've completed our internal investigation and we will announce the outcome then".
It would give time for the dust to settle and allow them to make a more informed decision .
So he HAS passed your personal threshold!Doing real work in support of rape victims, standing up and openly condemning men's violence toward women and personally doing everything realistically within one's power to oust sexist structures from my career of choice would pass my personal threshold.
I don't even know who Anthony Jesselnik is. I actually don't give a shit what expectation it sets. It should set the expectation that joking about rape in that way is not fucking OK and should be follow by consequences. I also think that Cernovich is a fucking rapist who should be locked up with the key tossed away. I certainly don't think the same should happen to Gunn over this, that would be absurd.
"There are no victims here" is bullshit. Of course there are. It normalizes incredibly harmful sexist views and values which propagates throughout society and, whether Gunn intended it or not (I don't think he did), leads to systemic issues that other people are dealing with in a very real way. If you want to accept him doing that and his apology being enough, that's your prerogative and you're perfectly welcome to do that. I won't even criticize you over it to be honest. But I have no sympathy for him beyond him being a target of fascists which is incredibly regrettable but should be dealt with in several other, more effective ways than apologizing for his behavior IMO.
Of course I care about him growing as a person, good on him. I just don't care about him keeping this job when the people around him don't feel comfortable being associated with his past actions. Do you apply this logic to every alt-right person who comes out and apologizes? I sure as fuck don't, why should I apply it here? (Aside from the implication and precedent this sets in legitimizing fascists, which I will concede is a perfectly valid point.)
Yes. I don't care. I would personally not want to be associated with him until he passes my personal threshold of making up for it, which he hasn't. That's my call.
No, the defeatist point of view is assuming that the only reason people change is because they except to be forgiven by everyone else. I don't even think Gunn himself would agree with you on that point.
If I did a fucked up thing and apologized for it, I would be doing it for my own inner self, not to have some apologist pseudo-sycophants praise me for it. What the hell kind of attitude is that and what exactly does it imply if that WAS the only reason people ever changed their mind on things? Being ashamed is a good starting point. It does not come with an expectation that others will automatically hand-wave your problematic actions away.
So he HAS passed your personal threshold!
Now you can change your mind about him.
He has donated money to charities supporting rape, abuse victims, also helped LGBT programs, he's one of the most inclusive directors out there. I think he's done that now.
You don't mess with Mickey and walk away unscathed, right or wrong. Unless you are old fashioned racist ass Disney
Making a pedo joke for a company that brands themselves on "family friendly" is probably the worst crime in Disney's eyesExcept of your RDJ or Johnny Depp. Drugs and beating your wife totally fine, making a shitty joke, totally not cool
Shape the fuck up. Take all this energy and anger and point it at Cernovich or whoever the fuck he is. Mobilize, do a public campaign to let the world know how shitty he is.
50 fucking pages of discussion like y'all think this thread is doing anything important in this matter.
Making a pedo joke for a company that brands themselves on "family friendly" is probably the worst crime in Disney's eyes
Also iirc Johnny Depp was never charged with beating his wife.