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TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,465
God of War has always been cinematic, the story is almost nonexistent, it's almost entirely character driven. The gameplay is shallow how and freedom compared to what? Be specific, instead of saying nothing.
Limited options with more depth to them isn't a bad thing, the Leviathan Axe is as good as any weapon in other action titles and the other weapons are good too, with plenty of option, as is the Boy.

The bosses are lacking though.

I mean, compare that to Devil May Cry 5. You have numerous capacity for variation with Nero's Devil Breakers, Dante's various styles which can be switched on the fly, and V - and all three of them are inherently distinct from another. God of War 3 has five weapons that play more distinctly than anything in the newer title. In the new one, you have your axe, and the Blades of Chaos later in the game; and between the zoomed in camera and the enemy types seeming like they want to play more like a Souls title than character action games, it just doesn't feel as tight.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Almost everything you kill is long dead. Also Kratos never once said be better as in be a good person and don't kill, he straight says be merciless. Just be better to where we don't kill each other like him and his and his father and Zeus and his father.

This is the scene I'm talking about, which has absolutely nothing to do with Kratos and his relationship with Zeus at all.

 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,146
This is the scene I'm talking about, which has absolutely nothing to do with Kratos and his relationship with Zeus at all.


Watch what you posted. Kratos is literary saying "be better than me" I don't know if you know this but Kratos killed millions because he couldn't control his rage and wanted to do nothing but kill Zeus and then die.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,465
I see a lot of people criticize lack of depth, or what can be more accurately called simplicity (or, even more generously, concision), but I don't want something like DMC in God of War. I like that the amount and complexity of combos is incredibly manageable, because to me the fun of action games comes more from positioning, reading enemy types, and deciding which strategy to go with, rather than from attempting to beat the systems of the game. So that of course is it's own form of depth, and can be seen in the many ways encounters can be played out, especially on higher difficulties.

It's the same thing with games like The Last of Us or Uncharted, I know they're not as "deep" as games like Splinter Cell or perhaps Gears of War, but I value the fluidity in which all its systems cohere (stealth/traversal/shooting/melee) and that they are refined to their simplest elements. It's also why I think RE4 is unmatched as an action game—it's mechanics are incredibly simple, but that's to its benefit as an action game. So when you throw the immediately pleasing tactility of the combat systems with an easily digestible narrative experience (thank god I don't have to scroll through menus full of long paragraphs of tiny text to get narrative, or listen to dozens of audio logs), and thrown in a fleshed out setting, you get a type of experience that I often find preferable to games that are—to my personal tastes—too needlessly, even arbitrarily, obtuse, complex, or (at worst) clunky. Gameplay and game system economy is just as valuable as narrative economy in my opinion. I think there are plenty of specific critiques that can be lobbed at God of War, TLOU, and Uncharted, but I will go to the mat any day to defend their basic principles and gameplay systems.

Okay, but. Strategy? Choosing how to take on the systems of the game? That's something the DMC series is great at. It's not a matter of "insert combo = win", the whole point is giving the player a variety of tools to play the game how they wish to. That's why combo videos are so popular; it's not just about seeing how high someone can rack up the hits, but watching the skill and creativity they use to get there.

I don't see that in God of War. The battles seem to mostly be arena combat, and you struggling against large groups of enemies. Positioning doesn't feel important when you can't bottleneck opponents or use the terrain like you can in a Soulesborne title. It feels like it's trying to be one kind of game while also trying to be another, and unlike other character action titles, which more or less embrace the fact that their level design is limited and instead focus on making enemy encounters right and memorable, GoW haves you a mostly linear path between hordes that don't feel as distinct.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Okay? The thing I'm saying is nothing is forcing them to tell only one kind of story. Devs already shown willingness to step outside of their personal experience for perspective, this is just another way they could.

And if this dev wants to make a story about being a dad based on his own experience, that's fine. But I don't think it's unwarranted for us, as people reacting to the product, to think that God of War does anything particularly new. Hell, Devil May Cry 5 has similar themes of fatherhood and legacies and destiny, and it does that while being much better as an actual action game. God of War tells a very typical story at the cost of its gameplay, but for some reason it's held up as a great achievement.
Lol. GoW gameplay isn't affected at all because of the story. It is a fucking blast to play. The story is just the reason behind the trip, just like almost every single game. In fact is really well integrated into the 'non action sections'. It also doesn't have to do anything new, if that was mandatory, 99'99% of games would fail to deliver.
I don't see that in God of War. The battles seem to mostly be arena combat, and you struggling against large groups of enemies. Positioning doesn't feel important when you can't bottleneck opponents or use the terrain like you can in a Soulesborne title. It feels like it's trying to be one kind of game while also trying to be another, and unlike other character action titles, which more or less embrace the fact that their level design is limited and instead focus on making enemy encounters right and memorable, GoW haves you a mostly linear path between hordes that don't feel as distinct.
So wrong..... You can have many strategies when dealing with enemies. And of course, it doesn't pretend to be DMC, it is GoW and has its own way of delivering action and combat, and not everyone needs to enjoy it. Just like i find DmC or Bayonneta style games boring and oriented to certain gamers (that btw sometime seem to be a bit elitist to be honest)
 
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Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,412
Okay, but. Strategy? Choosing how to take on the systems of the game? That's something the DMC series is great at. It's not a matter of "insert combo = win", the whole point is giving the player a variety of tools to play the game how they wish to. That's why combo videos are so popular; it's not just about seeing how high someone can rack up the hits, but watching the skill and creativity they use to get there.

I don't see that in God of War. The battles seem to mostly be arena combat, and you struggling against large groups of enemies. Positioning doesn't feel important when you can't bottleneck opponents or use the terrain like you can in a Soulesborne title. It feels like it's trying to be one kind of game while also trying to be another, and unlike other character action titles, which more or less embrace the fact that their level design is limited and instead focus on making enemy encounters right and memorable, GoW haves you a mostly linear path between hordes that don't feel as distinct.
I'm not saying there is no strategy to DMC games, I'm not even saying that that type of game isn't good, but I'm saying that that level of systemic complexity, where to feel I'm taking full advantage of the systems I have to learn a bunch of inputs (and the inputs are primarily where the variety comes from) rather than being able to grasp the mechanics instantly and instead can focus more on less arbitrary conflicts (rather than strings of inputs) like reading where enemies are, using the environment to my advantage, juggling which enemy types need priority, etc isn't as appealing to me. Add on to the fact that I feel like God of War and the ND games are more tactilely satisfying to play, and have adventures that are full of peaks and valleys and interesting settings that oscillate the player's experience rather than being pure mechanical exercises is just a more appealing notion to me because there are fewer barriers between the artifice of the medium and my engagement with it. Dismissing them entirely as dumb movie rip-offs that have no regard for gameplay is a reductive and silly argument.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Okay? The thing I'm saying is nothing is forcing them to tell only one kind of story. Devs already shown willingness to step outside of their personal experience for perspective, this is just another way they could.

And if this dev wants to make a story about being a dad based on his own experience, that's fine. But I don't think it's unwarranted for us, as people reacting to the product, to think that God of War does anything particularly new. Hell, Devil May Cry 5 has similar themes of fatherhood and legacies and destiny, and it does that while being much better as an actual action game. God of War tells a very typical story at the cost of its gameplay, but for some reason it's held up as a great achievement.
I love me some DMC 5 and while yes the core combat is more in depth, the game basically focuses on 1 thing. It's scope is MUCH smaller than God of War. There is no way I could have played that game 40 hours the same way I did with God of War.

In some ways I would argue that just because there are MORE moves doesn't necessarily make it more compelling. The reality is, because it is SO dense, I actually don't end up getting to know the combos and combat depth as much as I'd like because it becomes daunting by the end.

God of War introduces its mechanics at a pace that is much more manageable to learn, so I found myself utilizing a much wider spectrum of attack combos and strategies than I did in DMC V which somewhat devolved into me button mashing and running into combos by accident. Obviously this is a YMMV thing, but I think DMC could have done a much better job of introducing its combos and mechanical depth than it did.

There is also just the fact that "better as an actual game" is so incredibly subjective. You might like the mashy fast paced style of DMCV more, but I find the deliberate slower crowd management style of GOW more appealing. It feels like a combo of RE4, Character Action, and Dark Souls.

Also, pacing and scope wise, there is just much more going on in GOW.

GOW has:

Core combat
Boss Battles
Challenges
Puzzle Solving
Open Exploration
Side Missions
Main Story Path
Metroidvania Light lock and key ability gating

DMC V
Core Combat
Linear Traversal
Boss Fights
Challenges
Bloody Palace


Again, DMC V is amazing, but it just has a much smaller focus in its ambitions. Which maybe is advantageous in some ways, but I don't think I'll revisit it the same way I have with GOW.
 
Mar 8, 2018
1,161
Story can absolutely impact gameplay. It can influence player motivations, enhance fun factor, and push players to make interesting decisions during the course of play.

Treating story and gameplay as entirely separate entities that can be evaluated without respect for their influence on each other. Even God of War 2018 toys mildly with the intersection between story and gameplay with the way that Atreus starts to ignore your commands.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Watch what you posted. Kratos is literary saying "be better than me" I don't know if you know this but Kratos killed millions because he couldn't control his rage and wanted to do nothing but kill Zeus and then die.

I did watch it, when I played the game, and when I looked it up just before I replied to you to make sure I wasn't remembering incorrectly.

I agree that Kratos tells him to be better, I disagree with your notion is that he stated that so they didn't kill each other. He literally tells him strength from the heart but only if its tempered by the mind. This falls flat on its face in the climax of the last boss fight in the story.
 

LastNac

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,315
It's basically in the first few lines, the rest of this blog post is just one giant rant about why people who praise "prestige" games must be either ignorant morons or weirdos seeking validation by pretending to enjoy them.

Nothing to feel attacked by for sure
The irony here being is that the games receiving the blunt of the criticism in the article actually have mature literary inspirations and tackle complex themes.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I did watch it, when I played the game, and when I looked it up just before I replied to you to make sure I wasn't remembering incorrectly.

I agree that Kratos tells him to be better, I disagree with your notion is that he stated that so they didn't kill each other. He literally tells him strength from the heart but only if its tempered by the mind. This falls flat on its face in the climax of the last boss fight in the story.
How so?

He is far more controlled than he was in the original trilogy.

He even goes so far as to give the bad guy a chance to redeem himself, and only does what he does, because he is left with no choice after the fact. Throughout the game, his policy is basically about acting in self defense.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,465
I love me some DMC 5 and while yes the core combat is more in depth, the game basically focuses on 1 thing. It's scope is MUCH smaller than God of War. There is no way I could have played that game 40 hours the same way I did with God of War.

In some ways I would argue that just because there are MORE moves doesn't necessarily make it more compelling. The reality is, because it is SO dense, I actually don't end up getting to know the combos and combat depth as much as I'd like because it becomes daunting by the end.

God of War introduces its mechanics at a pace that is much more manageable to learn, so I found myself utilizing a much wider spectrum of attack combos and strategies than I did in DMC V which somewhat devolved into me button mashing and running into combos by accident. Obviously this is a YMMV thing, but I think DMC could have done a much better job of introducing its combos and mechanical depth than it did.

There is also just the fact that "better as an actual game" is so incredibly subjective. You might like the mashy fast paced style of DMCV more, but I find the deliberate slower crowd management style of GOW more appealing. It feels like a combo of RE4, Character Action, and Dark Souls.

Also, pacing and scope wise, there is just much more going on in GOW.

GOW has:

Core combat
Boss Battles
Challenges
Puzzle Solving
Open Exploration
Side Missions
Main Story Path
Metroidvania Light lock and key ability gating

DMC V
Core Combat
Linear Traversal
Boss Fights
Challenges
Bloody Palace


Again, DMC V is amazing, but it just has a much smaller focus in its ambitions. Which maybe is advantageous in some ways, but I don't think I'll revisit it the same way I have with GOW.

That's where we differ I guess. To me, a lot of the extra stuff that makes GoW feel larger in scope for you come off to me like tedious padding. Like. It doesn't do things like puzzles nearly as well as games that focus on Zelda, so when I see them I'm just struck by how forced they seem. The "openness" doesn't feel very strong because of all the invisible walls, and the story keeps dangling an objective in front of Kratos that it yanks away before baiting him with another one, so it's not effective at its Metroidvania aspects to me either.

When you take that stuff away you get the stuff that I'm actually here for, and... yeah, I just can't grock it. There's shades of a good game there; just pulling the camera back would improve it significantly, but it just doesn't work for me and I don't think it's gameplay is as strong as everyone is saying.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
That's where we differ I guess. To me, a lot of the extra stuff that makes GoW feel larger in scope for you come off to me like tedious padding. Like. It doesn't do things like puzzles nearly as well as games that focus on Zelda, so when I see them I'm just struck by how forced they seem. The "openness" doesn't feel very strong because of all the invisible walls, and the story keeps dangling an objective in front of Kratos that it yanks away before baiting him with another one, so it's not effective at its Metroidvania aspects to me either.

When you take that stuff away you get the stuff that I'm actually here for, and... yeah, I just can't grock it. There's shades of a good game there; just pulling the camera back would improve it significantly, but it just doesn't work for me and I don't think it's gameplay is as strong as everyone is saying.
Eh, agree to disagree. The pulled in camera is one of my favorite aspects. There are enough contextual cues that dodging and crowd control are very manageable, and thats without the pointer on your back being activated.

Everyone has their preferences though.
 

Nestunt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,302
Porto, Portugal
I find so much wrong with these premises. Art is communication. Some call it expression. The tons of people who liked those games did so because they shared the same sensibilities as the artists who made them. That's human connection not conspiracy.

What does it mean to "be like movies"? And movies are like what? Books? That's a really limited way of looking at things. What if some genres of games are trying to express what some genres of film/TV are trying, and doing it sometimes better? There are no Prestige whatever. There are themes and aesthetics of our perception of the universe.

Design-wise, the author seems to have an issue with games that take the player away from the "stick". I have 0 problems with that, if those moments serve the purpose of getting to know characters and stories. Life, the most interactive of all games, teaches us a lot when we stop to listen.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,146
I did watch it, when I played the game, and when I looked it up just before I replied to you to make sure I wasn't remembering incorrectly.

I agree that Kratos tells him to be better, I disagree with your notion is that he stated that so they didn't kill each other. He literally tells him strength from the heart but only if its tempered by the mind. This falls flat on its face in the climax of the last boss fight in the story.
He's telling him to control his rage, something he can't do well even after a thousand year of trying, not don't kill people. Also there's no anger in Kratos's actions in the climax of the last boss, he kills someone who is beyond helping, after he ignores his warning, he literally quotes Zeus before killing him too. Then Atrues learns about Zeus and what Kratos did and Kratos says again "you won't be what I was, we must be better".
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,069
I get where he's coming from but disagree with his framing. Games can be absolutely pretentious and treat their subjects with the subtlety of a hammer hitting up upside the head, so you should call them what they are. You don't need to come up your own term, just call them pretentious and leave it at that. Bioshock is pretentious as hell and if it doesn't work with you then that's fine, everyone knows the game is pretentious and people recognize that everyone has different tolerances for that kind of messaging.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,366
Christopher Nolan movies are some of my favorites, and yet I largely agree with this write up however aggressive it is in defining its vague ideology. I can appreciate the technical artistry of something like Uncharted 2, but I don't enjoy playing games like it or Red Dead/GTA whereas I very much enjoy watching a Nolan movie: story, characters, technical wizardry, and all.

I think Prestige Game is a much better term than just calling them Oscar bait video games as well though I do think Oscar bait video games highlights the massive gulf between AAA video games and the biggest dramatic movies every year in terms of storytelling and character performance. What we think of as awards bait every year from big game publishers is a mediocre action adventure movie in the film industry (much like the Road).

Directors of these cinematic games are often just stretching the movie format out over 10 to 20 or even 40+ hours and it absolutely kills me every time. They're not packing the density of storytelling in a good movie into each 2-3 hour chunk of a game so why even have the extra few dozen hours? It's not like they're crafting delightful varied gameplay around the storytelling in these games to fill the hours.

How many games could Naughty Dog put out in the core of a console's life cycle (say 5 years give or take) if they were making 2 to 5 hour games without time filler combat/puzzle gameplay, and how much would the pacing on their games (often the most common criticism of their games) and overall storytelling benefit from freeing themselves of making 10 hours of gameplay to go along with a few hours of cinematics and set pieces.
 

JCX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
795
Yeah pretty much spot-on for my tastes. I do wonder though if a writer more familiar with tropes in Japanese media could w rite a similar story critique of Japanese games. I know anime character and story tropes are common in JRPGs, for example.

My guess though is that it's not just western prestige games' "borrowing" from TV/Film that makes them seem shallow, but that the story element are the focus. In Japanese games like Astral Chain, while elements might nby inspired by Akira, the focus is on gameplay. To me, gameplay has always been the mot beautiful, moving, and unique aspect of games.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,083
I think Prestige Game is a much better term
Going by "definition" outlined in the article it's a terrible term because it literally applies to every 'AAA' game, including the ones the author tried to exclude. Not that Oscar Bait is much better - there's no such thing as a big-budget mainstream game that is 'not' baiting for awards - some are just more successful at it than others, like in every competition.
And if you want to filter for the winners - we have a rather clear definition - it's called 'Award Winning' - I'm sure internet will find ways to make that into a negative connotation if so desired.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,146
Christopher Nolan movies are some of my favorites, and yet I largely agree with this write up however aggressive it is in defining its vague ideology. I can appreciate the technical artistry of something like Uncharted 2, but I don't enjoy playing games like it or Red Dead/GTA whereas I very much enjoy watching a Nolan movie: story, characters, technical wizardry, and all.

I think Prestige Game is a much better term than just calling them Oscar bait video games as well though I do think Oscar bait video games highlights the massive gulf between AAA video games and the biggest dramatic movies every year in terms of storytelling and character performance. What we think of as awards bait every year from big game publishers is a mediocre action adventure movie in the film industry (much like the Road).

Directors of these cinematic games are often just stretching the movie format out over 10 to 20 or even 40+ hours and it absolutely kills me every time. They're not packing the density of storytelling in a good movie into each 2-3 hour chunk of a game so why even have the extra few dozen hours? It's not like they're crafting delightful varied gameplay around the storytelling in these games to fill the hours.

How many games could Naughty Dog put out in the core of a console's life cycle (say 5 years give or take) if they were making 2 to 5 hour games without time filler combat/puzzle gameplay, and how much would the pacing on their games (often the most common criticism of their games) and overall storytelling benefit from freeing themselves of making 10 hours of gameplay to go along with a few hours of cinematics and set pieces.
Lol, U4 is criticised for it pacing, not all ND games. Uncharted 2 has some of the best pacing you'll find in a game and it's 1 of it's biggest strengths. Uncharted 3 is fine, bit jumpy in the midway point, but not really much of a problem. TLoU has a slow start, but after Bill's Town (2-3 hours in) the pacing is great.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,366
Lol, U4 is criticised for it pacing, not all ND games. Uncharted 2 has some of the best pacing you'll find in a game and it's 1 of it's biggest strengths. Uncharted 3 is fine, bit jumpy in the midway point, but not really much of a problem. TLoU has a slow start, but after Bill's Town (2-3 hours in) the pacing is great.
Nah. Every one of them has bad pacing.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,134
Chile
I kind of agree, but I think that he missed the mark in some places. Red Dead for example, rather than copying what movies did, comes off as paying homage to the classic films. The Last of Us feels more like checklisting tropes, while both also being lackluster at some desing choices.

So, "doing something that has been done in movies" is not bad per se, but it has a lot to do about how it's being done, and the intention behind it.

It also reads like it's awful when people have this attitude about some games being "high art" and other being "lesser games" (Like what happens with Mobile and Sports game. That's no man's land, and companies just do whatever the fuck they want because they know that mainstream videogame media don't look too much into them), but then it does the same thing with some games, and so on and so on. It's heavily subjective though.

When I say I kind of agree, is that ultimately games should aim to be better than just checklisting stuff. We don't need XP and levels and skill trees in every game. Stop fucking chasing trends and stuff that tries to give depth to your games if they don't really have them in the first place. It seems artificial, and a forced way of pouring player choice in a game that doesn't have it or need to have it.
 

Nestunt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,302
Porto, Portugal
The fact that those games are considered GOTY material by a lot of different and not colluded people, tells a lot of what people value more in the human experience. Being "realistic" shouldn't be viewed as lack of imagination. People call bs way more rapidly in that theme.

Putting a lot of resources into characters and story to make people connect and then making passable gameplay can also be a unique act of interaction to tell new, interesting stories. A lot of people don't connect with games with great gameplay, because their livingness is poor.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,096
I love me some DMC 5 and while yes the core combat is more in depth, the game basically focuses on 1 thing. It's scope is MUCH smaller than God of War. There is no way I could have played that game 40 hours the same way I did with God of War.

In some ways I would argue that just because there are MORE moves doesn't necessarily make it more compelling. The reality is, because it is SO dense, I actually don't end up getting to know the combos and combat depth as much as I'd like because it becomes daunting by the end.

God of War introduces its mechanics at a pace that is much more manageable to learn, so I found myself utilizing a much wider spectrum of attack combos and strategies than I did in DMC V which somewhat devolved into me button mashing and running into combos by accident. Obviously this is a YMMV thing, but I think DMC could have done a much better job of introducing its combos and mechanical depth than it did.

There is also just the fact that "better as an actual game" is so incredibly subjective. You might like the mashy fast paced style of DMCV more, but I find the deliberate slower crowd management style of GOW more appealing. It feels like a combo of RE4, Character Action, and Dark Souls.

Also, pacing and scope wise, there is just much more going on in GOW.

GOW has:

Core combat
Boss Battles
Challenges
Puzzle Solving
Open Exploration
Side Missions
Main Story Path
Metroidvania Light lock and key ability gating

DMC V
Core Combat
Linear Traversal
Boss Fights
Challenges
Bloody Palace


Again, DMC V is amazing, but it just has a much smaller focus in its ambitions. Which maybe is advantageous in some ways, but I don't think I'll revisit it the same way I have with GOW.

I still need to play DMCV since it's just been sitting on my SSD for weeks, but I'm inclined to agree with IIFloodyII. Much of what was in GOW2018 felt like fluff. The loot and RPG stuff definitely didn't feel like it needed to be there. Open exploration mostly felt like Souls-lite. The aggressive level gating felt like it was meant to pad out the length of the game. Enemy variety definitely felt inferior to DMC and Souls games. And I wouldn't be surprised if DMC's core combat was deeper than GOW's.

GOW really just adequately executes all those things at the same time while adding to them much better graphics and unprecedented production value. The same could be said for Horizon.

And if someone is really into DMC's fighting system and playing all the difficulty modes, they could probably easily spend 40-plus hours on it. I spent almost 100 hours on RE2.

Lol, U4 is criticised for it pacing, not all ND games. Uncharted 2 has some of the best pacing you'll find in a game and it's 1 of it's biggest strengths. Uncharted 3 is fine, bit jumpy in the midway point, but not really much of a problem. TLoU has a slow start, but after Bill's Town (2-3 hours in) the pacing is great.

See I actually like the slower pace of Uncharted 4, but that's just me.
 

AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,666
15 pages of people discussing a high sodium blog post. Him and and others who think like him are always going to raise their cinematic hate flag because they can't just enjoy the shit they like, knowing others enjoy something different and it so happens to be really fucking popular.

Gaming has outgrown whatever sacred bullshit box certain individuals tried locking it in. It's been like this for decades now, get the fuck over it. Be grateful this industry still has developers who provide you with something you can enjoy, even if it's not loved the way you believe it should.
 
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Tomeru

Member
May 7, 2018
673
The point is that games have more means of conveying story than just dumping cutscene after cutscene and linear scripted events on you that might as well just have been a B-Tier movie.

And puzzles might as wellbe pictures. Lego might as well be a finished whatever. Really good reasoning in this thread for having opinions.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,146
I still need to play DMCV since it's just been sitting on my SSD for weeks, but I'm inclined to agree with IIFloodyII. Much of what was in GOW2018 felt like fluff. The loot and RPG stuff definitely didn't feel like it needed to be there. Open exploration mostly felt like Souls-lite. The aggressive level gating felt like it was meant to pad out the length of the game. Enemy variety definitely felt inferior to DMC and Souls games. And I wouldn't be surprised if DMC's core combat was deeper than GOW's.

GOW really just adequately executes all those things at the same time while adding to them much better graphics and unprecedented production value. The same could be said for Horizon.

And if someone is really into DMC's fighting system and playing all the difficulty modes, they could probably easily spend 40-plus hours on it. I spent almost 100 hours on RE2.



See I actually like the slower pace of Uncharted 4, but that's just me.
I don't mind it either, it picks up eventually (Madagascar tower set piece onwards is when it really hooked me), just make replaying a lot less desirable. But i did really loved the early super slow parts of Uncharted 4, in Nate's house/before Sam and Scotland especially.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,784
Just saw this post...but bioshock guy....jack, isn't even a dad. Unless you mean andrew ryan.

My point was that I didn't feel that all Prestige Games were Sad Dad games. That was just the initial name I was going to use about them because that's how I'd framed them in my head since I started thinking about them with the release of Bioshock Infinite. My comment, by the way, was about Booker DeWitt there. I just forgot his name. I didn't mean Jack. Though Jack becomes a Big Daddy, and that's pretty sad.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
15 pages of people discussing a high sodium blog post. Him and and others who think like him are always going to raise their cinematic hate flag because they can't just enjoy the shit they like, knowing others enjoy something different and it so happens to be really fucking popular.

Gaming has outgrown whatever sacred bullshit box certain individuals tried locking it in. It's been like this for decades now, get the fuck over it. Be grateful this industry still has developers who provide you with something you can enjoy, even if it's not loved the way you believe it should.
Yeah after reading through the article myself. It really feels like the tone is very "gatekeepery". Are there games that are more "mechanically deep" and less "derivative" than Naughty Dog games? Yeah sure there are.

Are they executed with the same polish and character writing as UC4 and The Last of Us? Not really.

People value good character writing and accessible but meaningful experiences. The Last of Us's ending alone and the conversations it has spawned, clearly shows that it has value.
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,867
How many games could Naughty Dog put out in the core of a console's life cycle (say 5 years give or take) if they were making 2 to 5 hour games without time filler combat/puzzle gameplay, and how much would the pacing on their games (often the most common criticism of their games) and overall storytelling benefit from freeing themselves of making 10 hours of gameplay to go along with a few hours of cinematics and set pieces.

You realize you're asking for ND to take the gameplay out of their games, right?
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
I don't think Faye is so noble, she cares about Atrues and probably Kratos too, but I don't think her goal is to give Atrues a better life, but to get revenge on the Norse gods. Though way too spoilery to really go into here.

Well if you watched the post credit scene it makes sense why she wanted her ashes on the top of the mountain
which forced kratos to look after his son, teach him, and have a closer relationship because she knew what will happen to them.

Knowing this outcome will come to pass she did what she could in preperation.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I still need to play DMCV since it's just been sitting on my SSD for weeks, but I'm inclined to agree with IIFloodyII. Much of what was in GOW2018 felt like fluff. The loot and RPG stuff definitely didn't feel like it needed to be there. Open exploration mostly felt like Souls-lite. The aggressive level gating felt like it was meant to pad out the length of the game. Enemy variety definitely felt inferior to DMC and Souls games. And I wouldn't be surprised if DMC's core combat was deeper than GOW's.

GOW really just adequately executes all those things at the same time while adding to them much better graphics and unprecedented production value. The same could be said for Horizon.

And if someone is really into DMC's fighting system and playing all the difficulty modes, they could probably easily spend 40-plus hours on it. I spent almost 100 hours on RE2.



See I actually like the slower pace of Uncharted 4, but that's just me.
Right, but my point is that DMCV didn't compel me personally to play any past my initial playthrough. I've played through GOW 3 times since it's release.

The breaks in GOW are engaging enough to break thing up for me and keep the main loop engaging. DMCV wore me out after my 15 hours with it.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,480
This is that ERA member: DocSeuss, self-proclaimed game designer and connoisseur of good taste in video games. How do you know he's a writer/designer/consultant or whatever profession he is at the moment? Don't worry, he'll make sure to tell you before telling you why his opinion matters and holds any weight.

Nailed it. This entire situation should be a lesson in why it's a bad idea to give a serial contrarian / console warrior forum poster a platform. This dude getting articles on Kotaku just means we have to hear about more of his Very Important Opinions which most of us read and laughed at on GAF for years.
 

Dash Kappei

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,870
Ok,thanks for this....complete clown confirmed.(Of course he's entitled to his opinions....his very bad opinions,lol)

Is the name calling necessary because someone doesn't agree with your opinion on a vidyagaem?

you could always say it to his face since DocSeuss is a member here, right?

Grow up.

Just for the record, I think the article was just a forum post-quality rant devoid of any insight
 
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Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
Right, but my point is that DMCV didn't compel me personally to play any past my initial playthrough. I've played through GOW 3 times since it's release.

The breaks in GOW are engaging enough to break thing up for me and keep the main loop engaging. DMCV wore me out after my 15 hours with it.

Yea, same. I replayed it 3 times already. The pacing, story, locales and the combat are super addicting. ANd I notice certain things I didn't before in previous playthrough.

It's just super well crafted. I will say I think the crafting system is the weak link in that game. I think the skill tree is fine, and actually add's a lot of depth especailly when you try and take on the post game/side content. Especially in harder modes.

To add, I have played DMCV and enjoyed it very much. But have not gone back to it. There's not as much reputability for someone like me, I'm not a combo guy which bloody palace is kind of about with the rank system.

I did enjoy though the fun combat and how much style oozed from that game.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
That had to of been the most pretentious way of saying one doesn't like Sony First Party games I have ever read.

Hats off I'm in stitches.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
I understand what kind of games the author is referring to, and, as someone who places a lot of weight in how expressive the mechanics of a given game are when considering if it's a good game or not, the points made in the article resonate with me. I find it extremely difficult to stay interested about any third-person action-adventure game with a heavy emphasis on impressive visuals and a story narrated through cutscenes and dialogue-focused walking sections.

That said, I also think the discussion about video game literacy and how players often undervaluate mechanical or system-driven narrative is much more interesting than the conversation related to prestige games in particular. These games might be the most appropriate examples to dissect due to them being the best regarded games in the industry, but I think focusing that much on the games themselves does the arguments presented in the article a disservice. As seen in this thread, it comes across as needlessly prescriptive at best, and confrontational about people's tastes at worst. Instead, I'd like to see a similar article speaking a bit more broadly and abstractly about narrative in games in general. I'm sure people would find the article more agreeable if it had a more educational focus (i.e., on how different games approach narrative through different means other than cutscenes and expositional dialogue), but I guess that kind of article wouldn't drive as much traffic, sadly.
 

Manu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,191
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Wrong. Though I'll repeat since you didn't get it the first time that I think less filler gameplay in their cinematic games would make them better games.
But the "cinematic filler" is the reason millions of people like the games.

As always, this boils down to "they should make games that cater more to me, current fans be damned" which in an era where we get more variety of genres than ever is short sighted and kinda selfish.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
Saying that stuff like TLOU, Uncharted or other more cinematic driven games are "repeats of other things" is one hell of a super duper hot take, oof.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,178
I find this writer's style pretty grating and it takes him for ever to make a point, but I agree with the possible, eventual point that making statements like "I don't like prestige games," is a silly statement, and that grouping games into these various categories is a fools errand.

I also think that Red Dead Redemption II is probably the best game I've played from the last 10 years, but I like it for different reasons than I like Celeste, DIshonored 2, Dark Souls, Resident Evil 4, Breath of the Wild, or Sonic the Hedgehog. I think it's possible to like different games for different reasons, and that there's no inconsistency is saying that Bayonetta 2 is a great game and Red Dead Redemption II is a great game, despite that both games are so different.

I think the author is correct that most games are derivative of something else. Most movies are derivative of something else. Most TV Shows. Most books. It doesn't matter and it shouldn't bother anybody and nobody should feel like that's a cogent point against the thing that is derivative. The idea, though, that Western games are more derivative of something other media product versus Japanese games is silly, though, they're just usually derived from something different.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,846
Wrong. Though I'll repeat since you didn't get it the first time that I think less filler gameplay in their cinematic games would make them better games.
I mean the tlou is getting close to 20 million sales with the remaster added in, and tlou2 is the most mega hyped game this gen, so the huge majority disagree with you.
 
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