Bayonetta + Bayonetta 2 |OT| 1-2 Witch

[ToTheMoon]

Man, I wish the Masked Lumen fights were more like Alarune. She also parries and ghosts (which I don't mind in small doses), but at least all of her attacks are nicely telegraphed.

As for the regular demons that parry, I've had decent success spraying them with undine or using the hammer. Only catch is you might have to be more cautious of the timer rather than combo score.

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Agreed. Humanoid bosses having invincibility frames isn't necessarily bad. Jeanne parries out of rapid attacks and has invincible dodges too. The difference between her and the Masked Lumen is that Jeanne is fair about things. Her dodge is slower and easier to follow with your eyes, and she'll pause for a moment after her parry to let you process what just happened. If you throw a Wicked Weave at Jeanne, then you know that she'll either A. get hit or B. dodge, which prevents her from attacking you for a moment. Offense is rewarded. It's actually viable to do rapid Panther Offset PKPs and Tetsuzanko's and pressure Jeanne into a corner, and the same sort of strategy can also be applied to Joy or Gracious/Glorious (two other enemies with invincibility frames).

The Masked Lumen, by comparison, will ghost out of attack (even rapid Umbran Climax punches!), then hit you immediately with fast attacks. At some point, it just gets beyond what you can expect from a human's biological reaction time, and that means that the only way to fight the Masked Lumen is by being super defensive. (This isn't helped by the fact that Bayonetta's dodge is less mobile and more easily punished in the sequel, which further discourages you from using dodging for anything besides defense.)

 

[FLCL]

Finished 2 a few hours ago, on normal. I really enjoyed the game and it was a better experience than the first game (which was also good). The combat on normal was way easier than normal in the first game which is a shame and going by what people say here on last page hard in 2 can be pretty annoying? I'll give it a go later on though. The more human opponents were really fun boss fights and I hope 3 has even more of those.

I will definetly do all the optional stuff in both games at one point, is that content any good?

 

[DanteLinkX]

Man replaying bayonetta 1 again feels so awesome. That game is just so fucking tight. Everything is responsive as it should. A tecnical marvel on portable mode. Cant fucking wait for bayonetta 3 gameplay

 

[Revolsin]

'Dumbed down' isn't quite the right way to put it. Rather, it's 'missing the point.' Above normal difficulty, enemies are overly defensive bullet sponges. They all have the Moon of Mahaa-Kalaa, and they'll be damned if they're not using it. Half of them can 'dodge' which makes them ghost through attacks. If for some reason they can't play the dodge animation, attacks will still pass through them, so good luck! Enemies are heavy and break out of combos extremely quickly. The solution? Witch time, which lasts 1/2 a second now. On Non-Stop Climax the combo system breaks down because it's basically impossible to perform combos; outside of which time enemies will block random attacks, stopping cold your combos, and which time will barely let you do PKP. Worse, if you try to dodge offset cancel into a Wicked Weave, many enemies will still dodge wicked weaves in Witch Time on Non-Stop Climax. (I'm looking at you, reoccurring boss-guy!')

Normal mode is fine, while Hard Mode is a bit uneven. Parts of hard-mode are easier than Normal on bayonetta 1, then all of a sudden you reach an input reading boss and it all goes to hell. So, that's an assessment of Bayonneta 2.

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Yeah that doesn't sound great.

I might just skip 2 and wait for 3 which is hopefully better.

 

[SweetVermouth]

Hey guys should I bother with trying out Bayonetta 2? I've played the first one on Wii U but rage quit. I think it was an annoying boss fight or smth that just made me hate the game. I heard that the sequel is definitely the better game though and in theory I should like everything about it because it just looks like exactly my type of game, but I was so disappointed by the first one.

 

[Rommaz]

I just binge-played Bayo 2 from start to finish today. Normal mode. First time I've done that in years. It was fun AF. Will start hard mode tomorrow, I hope the issues being mentioned there won't have too much effect :(

 

[Jintor]

Oops, accidentally got myself checkpointed with a Gaze of Despair'd Grace and Glory pair.

Time to GIT GUD

EDIT:
GIT GUD'ED ENUF

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very nice dude, but you should be using panther offset way more to rack up combos without having to get in too close. Shotguns help since they actually force G+G to flinch.

 

[Roytheone]

Hey guys should I bother with trying out Bayonetta 2? I've played the first one on Wii U but rage quit. I think it was an annoying boss fight or smth that just made me hate the game. I heard that the sequel is definitely the better game though and in theory I should like everything about it because it just looks like exactly my type of game, but I was so disappointed by the first one.

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Definitely. I was also anoyed with the pretty crappy difficulty balancing in 1 for first time players, and 2 is indefinitely better then 1 on that front.

 

[FLCL]

Hey guys should I bother with trying out Bayonetta 2? I've played the first one on Wii U but rage quit. I think it was an annoying boss fight or smth that just made me hate the game. I heard that the sequel is definitely the better game though and in theory I should like everything about it because it just looks like exactly my type of game, but I was so disappointed by the first one.

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I say go for it. Bayonetta 2 on normal was a much "smoother" experience than the first one. It was a lot easier too.

 

[ToTheMoon]

I will definetly do all the optional stuff in both games at one point, is that content any good?

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Both games have tons of unlockables and bonus challenges, and they're all fantastic. Bayo1's Hard mode mixes up all the enemy waves and will really force you to get better at the game, and there's a lot of arena-combat-style fun to be had with Bayo2's Witch Trials and Tag Climax. There's also some more obscure unlockables that can still be fun to go for, such as doing speed runs of all of Bayonetta 1's levels.

And, of course, you can always just go for higher ranks! Kamiya considers the first playthrough of Bayo1 to be the tutorial (hence the achievement name "A Taste of the Witching Hour"). You'll find that there's a ton of room for you to get better, and the higher difficulties are challenging enough to reward you for it.

Hey guys should I bother with trying out Bayonetta 2? I've played the first one on Wii U but rage quit. I think it was an annoying boss fight or smth that just made me hate the game. I heard that the sequel is definitely the better game though and in theory I should like everything about it because it just looks like exactly my type of game, but I was so disappointed by the first one.

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Bayo2 is significantly more new-player-friendly than the first game. A lot of people love it, so I'd recommend giving it a shot!

By contrast, Bayo1 is very, very new-player-unfriendly. The beginning is filled with cheap deaths, insta-kill QTEs, hard bosses, and difficult fighting conditions (like floors covered in lava). My first time playing Bayo1, I actually quit it fairly early on. It wasn't until I picked it up again several months later that it actually started to click for me, and it has since become my favorite game of all time.

 

[DrMario]

Question about the bayo 3 plot, obviously involving 1 & 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

i just beat these games for the first time. Still trying to wrap my head around all the time travel implications and i figure you guys can help me out with a few things.

Do a lot of people adhere to the theory that there's a split timeline created when cereza didn't get sealed away? If so, what are the chances 3 involves some sort of convergence timeline where the Bayonetta we know and love somehow meets the Bayonetta that's been alive for 500 years. Seems crazy that they would introduce a second Bayonetta possibility and not use it.

 

[ToTheMoon]

Question about the bayo 3 plot, obviously involving 1 & 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

i just beat these games for the first time. Still trying to wrap my head around all the time travel implications and i figure you guys can help me out with a few things.

Do a lot of people adhere to the theory that there's a split timeline created when cereza didn't get sealed away? If so, what are the chances 3 involves some sort of convergence timeline where the Bayonetta we know and love somehow meets the Bayonetta that's been alive for 500 years. Seems crazy that they would introduce a second Bayonetta possibility and not use it.

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Spoiler

That's a really interesting idea! Historically, I just thought that Kamiya was kind of being lazy with his idea of a parallel universe, and that Cereza-not-getting-sealed-away only affected the very end of Bayonetta 1 (but didn't significantly alter the events leading up to that point).

But I really like the idea that Cereza-not-getting-sealed-away created a proper split timeline with a different history, and (due to some sort of cross-parallel-universe-magic) the Cereza from that new timeline unlocks the memories of the Bayonetta in the game's timeline.

It definitely seems plausible that Bayo3 involves some parallel universe shenanigans, and I think that your theory would be an awesome way to tie it into the existing story!

 

[chocolate]

A lot of what I'm hearing about Bayo 2 is starting to sound unappealing.

As someone who adores the deep mechanics of Bayo 1 and has basically deep dived into learning it, Bayo 2 sounds like it might be dumbed down. Also easier which is 100% not what I want at all after experiencing the sheer thrill of using Gaze of Despair and fighting enemies trying to maul me down every second.

Might not buy it actually, despite Bayo 1 being a 10/10 for me.

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I was like you at first. Loved 1 and heard about 2's combat system, which dampened my enthusiasm.

It's not as bad as it sounds. Bayo 2 is an excellent game and should not be missed at all.

 

[chocolate]

Yeah that doesn't sound great.

I might just skip 2 and wait for 3 which is hopefully better.

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2 is an excellent game in and of itself.

Sure it has some issues, but so did 1 (those god awful motor cycle and rocket stages for instance)

Bayo 2 is a great game and should not be missed imo. It's fantastic. Give it a go :)

 

[Astral Lovelace]

very nice dude, but you should be using panther offset way more to rack up combos without having to get in too close. Shotguns help since they actually force G+G to flinch.

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Psh I ain't that advanced yet. I know the concept of how to panther offset, haven't actually done the practice of learning it.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Started playing the first game on PC today after getting a bit burned out on Bloodborne. It actually scratches the same "hard game" itch that Bloodborne does but is much less frustrating due to the generous check points. I beat the first two chapters and really enjoyed it. Love the fast paced combat, looking forward to being able to afford the new gun I just unlocked.

 

[Golnei]

Love the fast paced combat, looking forward to being able to afford the new gun I just unlocked.

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Completing LPs gives you the weapon automatically - what you see in the shop are alternates that let you use two of the weapon at once (hands + feet).

 

[Narroo]

. It wasn't until I picked it up again several months later that it actually started to click for me, and it has since become my favorite game of all time.

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Interestingly, the same thing happened to me. Except, half the reason I quit was that I couldn't stand Bayonetta herself.

How many other people did this where they quit and came back?

 

[Dance Inferno]

Completing LPs gives you the weapon automatically - what you see in the shop are alternates that let you use two of the weapon at once (hands + feet).

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Oh I see. By competing do you mean picking them up? Or can I play these levels somewhere?

 

[Golnei]

Oh I see. By competing do you mean picking them up? Or can I play these levels somewhere?

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As you progress in the game, later LPs are spread into various fragments instead of being whole when you get them - I just meant collecting every piece of a given one.

 

[Astral Lovelace]

The Alts also have slightly different designs -- I know on Durga, there's a little vial attached to the primary ones that isn't on the alts.

 

[Dance Inferno]

As you progress in the game, later LPs are spread into various fragments instead of being whole when you get them - I just meant collecting every piece of a given one.

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Ah ok got it, thanks!

 

[ToTheMoon]

The Alts also have slightly different designs -- I know on Durga, there's a little vial attached to the primary ones that isn't on the alts.

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Yep! For the shotguns, the alts have different color gems in them (the normal version has gems that match the Scarborough Fair guns that Bayonetta carries in her hands, whereas the alts match the gem colors for her feet). For Kilgore, the normal version has gold highlights while the alt Kilgore has black highlights.

 

[StuBurns]

It's been a few years since I played through Bayo 1, more than five years actually according to my achievements, but good God the pacing in the first two chapters is intolerable (and to be fair, even five years ago I would have been skipping all this stuff, because I'd already played it a couple of times on PS3). It stops you constantly for painfully bad, and insanely drawn out cutscenes. It really does make for an extremely poor opening. It took me an hour and forty minutes to get to chapter three, and I feel like about a third of that was playing the game, and it's not exactly a long game either.

When I think back at the game, I remember hating the missile and bike bits, and some irritating cosmic platforming stuff, but for the most part, I remember it very fondly, and I don't remember all these painful interruptions.

I also really need the cat transformation thing, because running feels so slow.

I hope Bayo 2 holds up a lot better. I played that much more recently, so I trust my memory of that one a lot more.

 

[DNAbro]

Bought and beat Bayonetta 2 in 3 days. Fucking amazing game. Everything feels a lot better than Bayo 1 and it's a lot more pleasing to look at. Most enemies don't feel as bullshit and the extra challenge arenas aren't hellish lol. Only complaint is that the ending didn't get nearly as bat shit crazy as Bayo 1. I was kind of expecting way more at the end because of that.

 

[Marmoka]

So I replayed Chapter 14 today. It's amazing how much I have improved since I played this chapter for the first time. Today I just died once, and just because I missed a QTE... First time Jeanne killed me like 8 times.

Using the Evil Harvest Rosary and the sword (or katana) makes the fight against Jeanne easier by far.

 

[MazeHaze]

Was loving the game. Then I got to the last jeanne fight. Good god, I can not get past the missile part. This is just shitty design. The camera suuuuuucks. It hides the boss from you, and by the time you move the camera to see her she probably already has you in a combo that will take a third of your life bar. Nothing else in the game really gave me too much trouble, but this fight is garbage.

 

[Jintor]

nah it's the best fight in the game. You're talking about the bit where you're actually on the missiles? You can honestly handle Jeanne more through sound cues than your eyes anyway

 

[MazeHaze]

nah it's the best fight in the game. You're talking about the bit where you're actually on the missiles? You can honestly handle Jeanne more through sound cues than your eyes anyway

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Disagree completely. Least fun I've had, and I was LOVING the game. Sound cues are nice, but they're not an excuse for not being able to see the boss at all for extended periods of time just because the camera sucks. Yeah I'm talking about the part where youre on the missiles. You can hold lock on but the camera is still wonky. I said fuck it and just cheesed it with yellow pops. 15+ deaths is more than enough time spent on that bullshit.

 

[Jintor]

i can't remember really having camera troubles there but i haven't played it for a bit. i'll do a quick record when i get home tonight and have a look again

honestly i die more through forgetting the bloody qtes

 

[ToTheMoon]

Was loving the game. Then I got to the last jeanne fight. Good god, I can not get past the missile part. This is just shitty design. The camera suuuuuucks. It hides the boss from you, and by the time you move the camera to see her she probably already has you in a combo that will take a third of your life bar. Nothing else in the game really gave me too much trouble, but this fight is garbage.

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The camera on the missiles can definitely be wonky.

The good news is that Jeanne will never attack you when she's off-screen unless she's in the air. If she's in the air, then she's guaranteed to do one of two moves:
1. A drop kick that lands directly below her (identical to Bayonetta's Kick input in the air).
2. A downward Afterburner Kick that descends at an angle.

When she goes above you, know that she's going to do one of these two attacks and get ready for them! Other than that, she shouldn't ever initiate an attack from off-camera.

Related:

 

[StuBurns]

Finished. I swear Bayo 1 is half cutscenes, it's like MGS4 levels of self-indulgent crap. And putting the best fight at the tail end of the worst level is just cruel. I should never replay Vanquish, I should leave it in my head as the masterpiece I currently believe it is, because in retrospect, I thought way too highly of this game.

Bayo 2 I'm sure is still much better though, fingers crossed.

 

[chocolate]

Finished. I swear Bayo 1 is half cutscenes, it's like MGS4 levels of self-indulgent crap. And putting the best fight at the tail end of the worst level is just cruel. I should never replay Vanquish, I should leave it in my head as the masterpiece I currently believe it is, because in retrospect, I thought way too highly of this game.

Bayo 2 I'm sure is still much better though, fingers crossed.

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If you're referring to the Jeanne 3 fight after the absurdly horrendous missile mission, then yes, I agree. If only that fight was in its own chapter... I'd replay the crap out of it.

Bayo 2 is better in every single way except in regards to how tight the combat can be (it's still great though).

 

[Jintor]

bayo unlocks the instant skip cutscene shortcut from the beginning of a game for a reason imho

 

[StuBurns]

bayo unlocks the instant skip cutscene shortcut from the beginning of a game for a reason imho

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Yeah, and I could have done that, but it's been years since I played it, and since launch that I actually played it and didn't skip the cutscenes, so I wanted to experience the full thing again. I'll probably never play it again, but if I did, I'd skip, yes. And I actually do like Bayonetta's character. She's incredibly charming when she's talking to Cereza.

 

[Jintor]

i still think the line "well i suppose a crying baby cockroach would be truly terrifying" is still one of the funniest things i've ever heard in a game. All in the delivery (and the absurdity of how tall Bayo is compared to Cereza in that scene especially)

 

[StuBurns]

Started 2, only played up to chapter 2, but it's even better than I remembered. Fixes almost all my issues with the first one. And I love the way it looks. At the time I remember thinking it didn't look any better graphically but playing them back to back, there's a major leap for sure.

EDIT: Played a little more, and it is such a vast improvement on the first game. Technically it looks better, artistically it looks better. They've cleaned up a lot of the messy alpha crap that might have made the combat of the original feel more fluid, it hurt the readability of combat at times. The story focus is pulled back a little. The Wicked Weave button mashing is toned down. The QTEs are gone. There's a little more exploration in levels.

The music isn't quite as good, and the weapons are a step back, but in every other area, it's a significant improvement. It's great. I can't believe we got a sequel to Bayo, and I can't believe we're getting another one.

 

[Garou Beast]

Almost finished with Bayo 2 on Hard mode. I had smoother experience on the second time thru. I'm definitely not doing a Pure Plat on my first run thru the game again. That was brutal. And I said it once and Ima say again, Balder is bullshit. Sloth is bullshit. Man, I can't believe when I fought Grace and Glory, they are fairer than Sloth is and there's two of them. It's actually fun to fight them. And probably the only humanoid boss I actually to fight is Alarune. She doesn't faze thru wicked weaves or UC attacks or have infinite dodges. Not only that she stands out the most out of all the bosses imo.

 

[catboy]

The Wicked Weave button mashing is toned down.

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Loooooooooooool

Umbran Climax is literally wicked weave button mashing

 

[Jintor]

honestly it's amazing how wrong to me Bayo 2's combat feels. I mean i'm a crazy person who probably spent 60-70% of their time doing angel slayer/witch trials over and over again experimenting with setups and man let me tell you the gamefeel in bayo 2, despite being ridiculously similar, is just off.

 

[StuBurns]

Loooooooooooool

Umbran Climax is literally wicked weave button mashing

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I meant literally the button mashing. I.E. Pound on Y for five seconds while a monster bites something.

Giving an actual button to unleash them is better I think, avoid those dumb circle button mashing mini summons.

 

[Jintor]

you don't actually have to do those tho they're just bonus shit

 

[StuBurns]

you don't actually have to do those tho they're just bonus shit

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And you don't have to do the Umbran Climax either.

Anyway, just finished it. Whilst I liked Bayo 1 a lot less than I remembered, I liked 2 more than I remembered. It still has its own versions of shitty bike/missile levels, still has way too many cutscenes, and horrible film strip ones too. 2 drops the terrible post-level shooting gallery game, but it does add horrible walk-and-talk 'cutscenes' that would make those parts painful on replays. It did remove QTEs though, and whilst it took me less time to finish (7:07 versus 8:18) it's paced in a much more pleasing manner to me, and there's just a lot more fun combat encounters. Overall, I think it's a much stronger game.

I do wonder about 3 though,

Spoiler

I kind of want a game where you play half as Rosa and half as Jeanne, but story wise, 2 feels like it was totally intended to be the last game. There are two eyes, two Gods, and 2 is a prequel as well as a sequel, and it literally ends with showing a tease for Bayo 1 and then throwing the Bayo 1 logo up. It feels pretty blatant that there wasn't meant to be a third game.

 

[Jintor]

you kinda do have to do umbran climax the way the game is balanced, weaves whiff like mad and don't stagger properly anymore, witch time lasts a half second. The entire game is balanced around climax and it gives me the shits

 

[DNAbro]

And you don't have to do the Umbran Climax either.

Anyway, just finished it. Whilst I liked Bayo 1 a lot less than I remembered, I liked 2 more than I remembered. It still has its own versions of shitty bike/missile levels, still has way too many cutscenes, and horrible film strip ones too. 2 drops the terrible post-level shooting gallery game, but it does add horrible walk-and-talk 'cutscenes' that would make those parts painful on replays. It did remove QTEs though, and whilst it took me less time to finish (7:07 versus 8:18) it's paced in a much more pleasing manner to me, and there's just a lot more fun combat encounters. Overall, I think it's a much stronger game.

I do wonder about 3 though,

Spoiler

I kind of want a game where you play half as Rosa and half as Jeanne, but story wise, 2 feels like it was totally intended to be the last game. There are two eyes, two Gods, and 2 is a prequel as well as a sequel, and it literally ends with showing a tease for Bayo 1 and then throwing the Bayo 1 logo up. It feels pretty blatant that there wasn't meant to be a third game.

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you can just skip through those walk and talk scenes by mashing A. I'm currently playing it again on Hard and that's what I've been doing.

 

[StuBurns]

you kinda do have to do umbran climax the way the game is balanced, weaves whiff like mad and don't stagger properly anymore, witch time lasts a half second. The entire game is balanced around climax and it gives me the shits

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Well, admittedly I only just played through on Normal, and it was beyond a cake walk, unless you count fall deaths, I never died, or was ever close, which is pretty bad. But those Wicked Weaves were always really lame to me. Witch Time being so short only bothers me if I'm trying to focus on a single enemy, because I'll go to another enemy I know the timings of better to get a Witch Time then try and go back to the enemy I'm focusing on to kill, but that almost never worked out due to the short duration. I imagine on harder difficulties it would bother me, but on Normal it was never an issue.

you can just skip through those walk and talk scenes by mashing A. I'm currently playing it again on Hard and that's what I've been doing.

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That's cool. How does that work on the stairs though? Because you're forced to walk up them, I was trying to run, or turn into a panther, no luck... Does it start letting you run if you skip all the dialogue before you get to the top of the stairs?

I will be replaying it on Hard now I have the Bayo 1 sword in a few months when I'm done with Zelda, Mario and Xenoblade.

 

[Jintor]

speaking of xenoblade 2, there's a bunch of shit in xenoblade 2 that really heavily remind me of bayo's artstyle at times

 

[DNAbro]

Well, admittedly I only just played through on Normal, and it was beyond a cake walk, unless you count fall deaths, I never died, or was ever close, which is pretty bad. But those Wicked Weaves were always really lame to me. Witch Time being so short only bothers me if I'm trying to focus on a single enemy, because I'll go to another enemy I know the timings of better to get a Witch Time then try and go back to the enemy I'm focusing on to kill, but that almost never worked out due to the short duration. I imagine on harder difficulties it would bother me, but on Normal it was never an issue.


That's cool. How does that work on the stairs though? Because you're forced to walk up them, I was trying to run, or turn into a panther, no luck... Does it start letting you run if you skip all the dialogue before you get to the top of the stairs?

I will be replaying it on Hard now I have the Bayo 1 sword in a few months when I'm done with Zelda, Mario and Xenoblade.

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i just mashed through, and after a few more seconds it just let me move normally up the stairs.

 

[Lumination]

you kinda do have to do umbran climax the way the game is balanced, weaves whiff like mad and don't stagger properly anymore, witch time lasts a half second. The entire game is balanced around climax and it gives me the shits

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Eh, I'm getting through my hard playthrough just fine without using UC outside of bosses. I've been abstaining because I haven't paid attention to how the combo score is calculated and I'm afraid ohkoing everything will lead to fewer points. In fact, using Torture Attacks is arguably easier because it lets you kill dudes that guard and muck up your combo while getting a hefty heal and a free busted weapon. UC looks cool and wipes out a mob and a half sure, but not actually convinced that it's better anymore.

 

[Astral Lovelace]

Even just regularly playing Bayonetta 2 after Bayonetta 1 I was annoyed at how useless anything other than UC was -- In Bayo 1 if you hit something with a Wicked Weave you *felt* it -- and usually did some pretty heavy damage. Bayo 2 it felt like I was doing half as much damage to build up to UC.