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Oct 27, 2017
11,539
Bandung Indonesia
UK isn't much better. It seems we're willing to turn a blind eye to Israel's actions and I, for the life of me, can't understand why.

Isn't it obvious? Because the UK, and any other country, doesn't want to risk ruining their relationship with the US.

Which is, although disagreeable, but also understandable, considering bathing the land with Palestinian blood by supporting the Israel carte blanche is something that has unilateral support from the US.
 
I'm curious, is the US the main gate in condemning Israel, or is the rest of the West just as supportive?

Edit: To expand, why would that be? I get the US reasoning, as it's tied heavily for one parties platform and in our military spending/investment. I don't recall any other nations investing as much of themselves in continuing such support.
Germany is extremely supportive of Israel (for obvious reasons).
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Fuck Israel. Can't ignore the civilians hands in this, since it is a "democratic" state after all, isn't it?
Fuck them too, everyone who keeps voting for this shit.
Guys guys it's ok prominent members have decided you can call jews in the trump admin nazi's but not jews in a party whose policy is ethnic cleansing.
Apparently..

Have to say it's bloody laughable how we can call Trump and co. full blooded Nazis when the damage they've done is nothing compared to Israel's war crimes and ethnic cleansing. Literally ruling with racial superiority.
Fucking laughable lads.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
7,510
I wish moderation was this strict for racism and sexism on this board
giphy.gif
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Pretty much agree that you shouldnt conflate civilians with the leadership. It's a gray as hell area that I'd avoid. Much like how I dont conflate what the United States government has done in the past 60 years with the people.

I have already given more than my 2 cents on the nazi comparison. It's sad though, that while I understand the reason, you have Israel week by week making decisions that makes the comparison ever more stronger.
 
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Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
I wish moderation was this strict for racism and sexism on this board

Fuckin' right? I wish the bans were as long, too. Gonna beat that fuckin' drum 'till the sun comes down.

Yunno, I keep hearing that there are pro-Palestine mods here on ERA. I do wonder when enough is gonna be enough for them-- what fucking heinous shit is going to have to go down before they seriously sit down and examine whether or not protecting this factory of human misery, however obliquely, is remotely worth it when it's clear people only have a handful of comparison points when it comes to slow escalations into genocide. Children getting shot didn't do it. Medics getting shot didn't do it. Journalists getting shot didn't do it. Speeches that are very reminiscent language-wise didn't do it. Judicially-sanctioned village burnings won't do it.

I mean, we can all see the trend, right? We can all see where this is going? Last thread a mod admitted Israel's actions are outright genocidal. Sssooo. How bad's it going to have to get before you guys consider that the pros of... I don't even know at this point are outweighed by the cons of slowing the spread of this information and discussion about these atrocities. Last thread we got someone banned because it was clear they were using the comparison issue to derail the thread entirely and try to get it closed. And all I can ask myself is-- in what world is that remotely worth it, and how long is it going to stay worth it?
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,143
NYC
man, this is so fucking sad. this shit will just keep happening and happening until they just don't exist or are all pushed out to other countries entirely.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
Netanyahu and his government choose to ally with actual nazis while perpetrating a genocide. This site's moderation is pretty much re-enacting the "it's worse to be called X than it is to do X" that we all have seen in the racism threads. Except of course that there it's not worthy of moderation.
 

DryCreek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,987
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
Also, let's not ignore the fact that, within the context of a supreme court ruling on villages being razed, there's actually a certain relevance to talking about how fair or just it is to uphold something effectively because "rules are rules." That's really the only justification that's been given, the only justification that at this point even holds up to scrutiny, and the fact that it's being made in the shadow of these atrocities speaks for how bankrupt on an intellectual level the ruling actually is.
 
Oct 30, 2017
169
Grande Bretagne
User banned (permanent): History of deliberately trolling sensitive threads. Profile admits to being a troll account.
Oh well it seems this is a whole heap of Nazi

Let's hope nobody gets offended by that
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,194
Toronto
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.
Uhhhhh Trump winning the election has always been a huge blemish for Americans and massive indicator of serious problems within the country. Like you can say he lost the popular vote but it's a massive problem for America that Trump not only was just 3mil sort, but that he gets to be the president and such huge swathes of the population and the people they put in power are massive shitheads that support him like you'd defend your own child.

A country's people is very much responsible for the governments they elect.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.
1448896639-9a039f807d0e66658d02d901483efd9e.gif
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.
The problem here is that mods don't ban people for generalizing America. I'd have no issue with this rule if it was applied for everyone, but having it only applied for Israel (especially in threads like this one), is rather, umm, questionable.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Halifax, NS
So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid..

Israelis on average support these actions. It's been touched on already. Trump lost the popular vote, by lazy extrapolation you could argue less than 50% supported him. It's not the same for Israel, where more than 50% of the vote is split among parties who all support the actions against the Palestinians.

At best you could argue they are indifferent to it (the whole "I'm not voting for that reason" defense), but being indifferent to genocide is effectively endorsing it.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
Uhhhhh Trump winning the election has always been a huge blemish for Americans and massive indicator of serious problems within the country. Like you can say he lost the popular vote but it's a massive problem for America that Trump not only was just 3mil sort, but that he gets to be the president and such huge swathes of the population and the people they put in power are massive shitheads that support him like you'd defend your own child.

A country's people is very much responsible for the governments they elect.

Right? Israel is a democracy. I don't understand where people get off revising history by saying that people don't broadly blame Americans for Trump. And it's broadly understood that there's plenty of people who oppose Trump. However, it's clear that when discussing Israel and discussing Likud you have to labor that distinction significantly. It seems pretty logical to me that this produces a barrier to entry for discussion and has a chilling effect. Again, it impies to me that the reason for the ban on the comparison is a bit more broad-reaching than moderation is willing to admit-- because treatment is across the board broadly distinct.

The long and short of it is people have to approach Israel with a fundamentally different tack than they do any other nation, and that's going to be fundamentally aggravating when Israel is ramping up a genocide and their leaders knowingly use that distinction to dampen criticism of their crimes against humanity-- that cover extends to the complicity of Likud's supporters, too. It seems fundamentally, deeply stupid to play that game as things get worse and worse.
 

3bdelilah

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,615
I, and every other sane human being should, hold the US government highly responsible for the atrocities committed by Israel, past and present. If it wasn't for the good ol' Uncle Sam, this shit would have never, NEVER, ever escalated to the point where it's at now. It seems the whole world, at least the great powers, are condemning this shit, except for the USA. What's the point of international law if there's seemingly no one that enforce it?
 

Jpop

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,655
Hey, if you guys want to throw something my way that I can bring up and discuss with staff when I can, I'm all ears, or the circle can just keep going on and on. I'm more than happy to try and cut through the chaff to put something together.

So,

Please enlighten us on how citizens cannot be conflated with a democratically elected government. Because reasons? Okay.

Are we not allowed the criticize and conflate people who voted for Trump for the policies his government has enacted? Okay.

In that same logic are we not allowed to criticize Israeli citizens for the policies of their government, who are elected by them.

Just do a poll, and stop being hypocrites feeding this right wing bullshit.

Let's not even get into the fact that this is the Supreme Court of a country holding up genocide as legally acceptable. But yeah, lets not attack Israel guys!
 

DryCreek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,987
Yeah but if you didn't vote trump then his actions aren't your responsibility and referring to Americans rather than trump voters specifically is a generalisation. It just is.

The bile in these threads is just insane. It's not condemnation of Israel's actions and then talk about what can be done to prevent it. It's just bile and hate towards Israel, Israelites, while wanting to get off on calling them Nazis and then getting angry when you rightfully get banned for it like a white dude that just got told they can't say the n word for the first time.

Read this and take it on board because I am worried that a lot of people are going over the line on this one

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.
People here are blaming the government not the people. Read the thread before you start calling people idiots.
 

3bdelilah

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,615
Israelis on average support these actions. It's been touched on already. Trump lost the popular vote, by lazy extrapolation you could argue less than 50% supported him. It's not the same for Israel, where more than 50% of the vote is split among parties who all support the actions against the Palestinians.

At best you could argue they are indifferent to it (the whole "I'm not voting for that reason" defense), but being indifferent to genocide is effectively endorsing it.

I agree. Sure, we shouldn't reflect all government actions to the civilians per se, but definitely to a certain high extent. For example, if the majority of a country votes for one or several parties known for opposing immigration, wanting to close borders, with the intention of treating minorities like second-class citizens, can you not say that the majority of the people in that country share that view as well? I don't buy the "but I didn't vote them for that reason". The lives and well-being of your fellow human beings should outweigh most other political views.

The majority of the Israelis, as in the citizens that voted for parties that condone or actively pursue this, are jointly responsible for the crimes committed by their government. Plain and simple. We shouldn't sugarcoat it.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,758
Can we stop worrying about terms being used?

If people say "Israel is awful", they clearly are referencing Israel as a political entity, not the people.

Again, it's a complaint that detracts from the actusl issue.
 

3bdelilah

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,615
"1. Do not conflate civilians with their leadership: "

But... the people chose their leadership and they're fine with what they're doing?

True, but I'd like to believe that "... You should also not hold all Israelis responsible for the actions of their government" implies that it's only a problem if you put everyone under the same umbrella. I'm sure there are plenty of rational Israeli voters that condemn the treatment, belittling and segregation of the Palestinians, but unfortunately not enough. Based on the votes and the party seats, most Israelis either don't give a fuck or actively support their government's decision, which makes them co-responsible. And those people should rightfully be criticized.
 

Deleted member 1041

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,725
There are a lot of right idiots in this thread.

Should we start blaming all Americans for trump locking splitting up children and families and locking them up?

It's Americans fault the Iraq war happened look at all the civies that Americans are okay with killing in Syria, Iraq and iran.

All Americans are racist because they voted in trump.

So like stop conflating all Israelis with their government. It's reductionist and stupid.

Go in on Israel however as usual their actions are disgusting.

tbf people are content with blaming all republicans for Trump and well...the republican parties issues.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,539
Bandung Indonesia
Yeah but if you didn't vote trump then his actions aren't your responsibility and referring to Americans rather than trump voters specifically is a generalisation. It just is.

The bile in these threads is just insane. It's not condemnation of Israel's actions and then talk about what can be done to prevent it. It's just bile and hate towards Israel, Israelites, while wanting to get off on calling them Nazis and then getting angry when you rightfully get banned for it like a white dude that just got told they can't say the n word for the first time.

Read this and take it on board because I am worried that a lot of people are going over the line on this one

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Quote the people who conflate all the citizens of Israel and the Israel government in this thread. Quote them.
 

DryCreek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,987
tbf people are content with blaming all republicans for Trump and well...the republican parties issues.

Yeah holding the republican party to account makes sense though. They directly use populist tactics to scare people into voting for them though misinformation and fear of the other. They then install trump who is basically a tinpot dictator as a leader and then care more about staying in power than doing the right thing and removing an absolute butter from the role of president. The republican party is fucking disgusting.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I am interested in both the mod policy and the story but I felt this post was buried even though it is a good post:
Hey guys, are you more interested in the actual story here, or in beating your heads against the only wall the mods have put up? Because all this complaining is doing is derailing the thread and distracting from the issues.

Now, to add some context to the article, it should be noted that yes, there is technically a process by which Palestinians could be granted permission to build on land in the West Bank. The BBC notes, however, that this is rare, while vaguely attributing this remark to some Palestinians and dropping the discussion. So, just how rare is it? Well, have a look for yourselves:



Less than two percent. Palestinians looking for places to live are basically damned if they do, damned if they don't when it comes to seeking out government permission. Of course, the Israeli government doesn't care about this. After all, while they already have a very lenient policy toward the Israeli settlements that encroach on Palestinian land, somehow the reverse is practically impracticable in the law's biased eyes. It only "makes sense" if such policies are taken as the preamble to outright displacement, including genocide, and annexation—and at this point, it's hard to see the current Israeli government's motives in a more positive light than that.

This maneuvering over building permits is completely transparent and craven, and if the Israeli courts don't force a more equitable interpretation of the law (and this case was a major litmus test), there's very little hope for the Palestinians barring a shift to a more liberal and tolerant Israeli government.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,346
Yeah but if you didn't vote trump then his actions aren't your responsibility and referring to Americans rather than trump voters specifically is a generalisation. It just is.

The bile in these threads is just insane. It's not condemnation of Israel's actions and then talk about what can be done to prevent it. It's just bile and hate towards Israel, Israelites, while wanting to get off on calling them Nazis and then getting angry when you rightfully get banned for it like a white dude that just got told they can't say the n word for the first time.

Read this and take it on board because I am worried that a lot of people are going over the line on this one

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Yes people, are angry, rightfully so. And I can understand people wanting to call an ethnonationalist who is friendly with actual Neo-Nazis the appropriate word here, even if he's an Israeli. Your link there doesn't justify why that shouldn't be the case. I can understand if the moderation doesn't want the headache of allowing that and having to moderate in the future who exactly can be called that and who not, that's fine. But don't act like it's blind hate at work with this particular person.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
AGAIN, people have changed the thread from being about actual ethnic cleansing and horrific actions of israel to tone policing the people who criticize israel.
FUCK ANYONE WHO'S DOING THAT.
 

3bdelilah

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,615
fuck zionism
fuck the israeli government
fuck anyone who supports them

Preach. It's a shame most people seem to equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism though. I think it's one of the reasons that it escalated to this point. It has been part of Israeli propaganda since its modern inception, "criticizing the Israeli government = antisemitism". And once we're reminded of the atrocities of the WWII, and specifically the horrors suffered by Jews in the Holocaust, we (the collective Western world) seem to have this counterproductive reflex to back down and turn a blind eye to, or even allow, Israel's crimes almost in a misplaced effort to make amends.

Luckily more and more Western countries seem to have let go, or are in the process of letting go, that logical flaw that anti-Israel equates antisemitism. Except for the USA, that is. Especially now with the Trump administration.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
Preach. It's a shame most people seem to equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism though.
that'll always happen. just tell them they're fucking wrong, and ignore their further posts. they'll go away. it's when you engage with them that they go "oooh now the thread isn't about israel being bad anymore, it's about semantics."

Luckily more and more Western countries seem to have let go, or are in the process of letting go, that logical flaw that anti-Israel equates antisemitism. Except for the USA, that is. Especially now with the Trump administration.
sadly UK joined them on that. seems like you can't criticize israel there anymore.
 

fauxtrot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
455
Since the mods are enforcing what they deem acceptable wrt comparing the Israeli government to Nazis, can we at least also start having mods take action on the same handful of posters that come into these threads to derail the discussion every time one is created? These threads about the horrors Palestinians are facing deserve to be on the board and kept on topic.
 

dr_octagon

Member
Dec 31, 2017
240
Hodgy

you should flag posters in any threads who you believe are being anti-semitic

criticising israeli govt and netanyahu is not anti-semitism, regardless of the continuous attempt to discourage any criticism. the link you provide has contradictory information how to criticise a democratic nation and its government (see below)

we speak out about abuse, corruption, torture, injustice and propaganda when it comes to other governments, politicians and political decisions. we expect all nations to uphold the geneva convention and treat their citizens (and any individual) with respect and not disregard basic human rights (even during periods of conflict).


https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism


"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

"Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."


nobody is treating netanyahu or the israeli govt unfairly when we discuss the constant use of excessive force, agressive policies to force people out of their homes, refusal to prosecute crimes, inability to uphold justice when citizens are tortured, corrpution within their own party etc.
 
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Deleted member 8583

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,708
Since the mods are enforcing what they deem acceptable wrt comparing the Israeli government to Nazis, can we at least also start having mods take action on the same handful of posters that come into these threads to derail the discussion every time one is created? These threads about the horrors Palestinians are facing deserve to be on the board and kept on topic.

Yeah, there are posters that just appear in this type of topics to derail it and yet, they survive thread after thread. Like how obvious is that someone with a year old account and no posts prior to a Palestine-Israel topic is just here to derail and defend the actions of the Israel government and the vast majority that supports it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Hodgy
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

"Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
The other I agree with, this though..
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,849
The fear that surrounds criticizing Israel is plain to see. From government to the media to even lowly forums. The question is why??
 
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