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headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,627
He submitted videos of mame gameplay and claimed they were legit. That's cheating.

I would argue that maybe the gameplay videos should be considered as invalid, sure... but cheating? If you're saying he's cheating then you would assume he would never actually be able to hit the 1 million target WITHOUT cheating by using an unofficial version, but that's clearly not the case.

Am I missing something? I'll admit I don't know all the details.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,117
I would argue that maybe the gameplay videos should be considered as invalid, sure... but cheating? If you're saying he's cheating then you would assume he would never actually be able to hit the 1 million target WITHOUT cheating by using an unofficial version, but that's clearly not the case.

Am I missing something? I'll admit I don't know all the details.
Strats improve over time. People figure out more efficient ways to play the game. 1 million points in 2018 is a lot different than 1 million points a decade ago.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,783
I would argue that maybe the gameplay videos should be considered as invalid, sure... but cheating? If you're saying he's cheating then you would assume he would never actually be able to hit the 1 million target WITHOUT cheating by using an unofficial version, but that's clearly not the case.

Am I missing something? I'll admit I don't know all the details.

Besides what Rats said my base level understanding is mame would also not run the same as legit hardware and gives an unfair advantage.
 

Kraken3dfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,955
Denver, CO
Return of the king

Haters faced
kQdulRy.jpg
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,663
Doesn't erase the cheating scandal of course but still awesome to see nonetheless, Mitchell obviously has legit incredible skills. Also people need to relax a bit on the hate regarding his personality, based on what I've read it's at least partly a heel act/persona he does.
 

Minions

Member
Oct 25, 2017
432
I'd be lying if I say I didn't find this entertaining. Hats off to Billy. He really know how to put on a show.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,024
I would argue that maybe the gameplay videos should be considered as invalid, sure... but cheating? If you're saying he's cheating then you would assume he would never actually be able to hit the 1 million target WITHOUT cheating by using an unofficial version, but that's clearly not the case.

Am I missing something? I'll admit I don't know all the details.
He did what he did so that he could hit that target first.
 

scrapple

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
676
you need Dbag's like him to make videogaming competitive... and fun...
this wouldn't be a story at all if he wasn't who he is as far as personality.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,819
USA
Doesn't surprise that he CAN do it. Just that all of his other records were suspicious as hell.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I would argue that maybe the gameplay videos should be considered as invalid, sure... but cheating? If you're saying he's cheating then you would assume he would never actually be able to hit the 1 million target WITHOUT cheating by using an unofficial version, but that's clearly not the case.

Am I missing something? I'll admit I don't know all the details.
He claimed his footage was made on real hardware which was false. It's absolutely grounds for a ban.
Besides what Rats said my base level understanding is mame would also not run the same as legit hardware and gives an unfair advantage.
Using Mame is actually allowed. The issue wasn't the use of a emulator per se, but him claiming it was done on legit hardware when it wasn't. Emulators are absolutely valid and fair to use, but you must abbide by the rules set up for emulator runs. That includes specifics on game recording, as well as having to use a specific fork of the emulator done specifically for DK runs.
 

nicoga3000

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,999
great achievement, he proved all of his doubters wrong

I don't think anyone ever really doubted him. Even though he's kind of a douche, he's proven to be a solid Donkey Kon player. It was the fact that he was submitting scores on "official hardware" that most people believe was MAME. Therefore, it nullifies his achievement of being the first to do XYZ on official hardware.
 

perfectchaos007

It's Happening
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,263
Texas
Whats great about Billy Mitchell is he also sticks his neck out for other cheaters, like the guy who holds the record for Dragster even though the score/time is literally impossible to achieve by humans
 

Deleted member 15538

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,387
Whats great about Billy Mitchell is he also sticks his neck out for other cheaters, like the guy who holds the record for Dragster even though the score/time is literally impossible to achieve by humans

But you don't see that fuck doing panels, Mitchell knew he had the skills and showed it once again.
It's that whole persona that is amazing, nobody cares about Wiebe or the current record holder.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,254
I wonder what the overlap is of people rooting for Billy "The King of Kons" Mitchell and people that voted for Trump.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Yes, use google.
For example, to check the Twin Galaxies report here:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_d...s-donkey-kong-and-all-other-records-removed/4

I keep hearing how he used save states, or tampered with the footage to include gameplay from more than one session, to achieve his score, among other things.
People should read the report that resulted in his banning, so see what the actual "cheating" was.

He submitted footage that, according to Twin Galaxies findings, wasn't generated in unmodified hardware.
There's a high chance the footage was from a machine running MAME, but that wasn't proven, because that wasn't part of the scope of the inquiry.
Since that leaderboard was for games done on unmodified hardware, and their conclusion was that the machine he used wasn't one, his scores were removed.

There were no claims of the use of save states, nor image tampering. I don't think anyone even accused him of doing so.
What the image showed, is that board transitions on MAME are rendered differently than on an unmodified arcade, and the ones on his footage closely resemble the ones from MAME.
Nothing on the footage he submitted shows him using any kind of advantage, or nothing out of the ordinary in terms of gameplay, outside of what I mentioned above.

He is guilty of playing (knowingly or not) on a machine that wasn't an original cab, or unmodified hardware.
Nothing more.

As usual, all people take from these reports is the word "cheat", and come up with all kinds of ridiculous allegations that aren't part of the actual report that resulted in his punishment.
It's impossible to prove what cheats Billy Mitchell was using, because he filmed it in a way that made it impossible to see anything other than what Mitchell wanted people to see.

It's like if Lance Armstrong got caught, several years after the fact, because modern testing was finally able to reveal that the clean blood sample Armstrong turned in during that one world record attempt came from a guy Armstrong met in a Home Depot parking lot. That doesn't prove that Armstrong was doping. How can it prove Armstrong was doping, if it can't even tell us which drugs he had in his system? It's possible that Armstrong was riding completely clean, maybe at a disadvantage even, and swapped his blood samples because... I dunno, he doesn't like needles or something (even though he's on record as saying that he loves needles, and stabbed himself in the arm multiple times just to prove the point).

Oh, but hey guys, look out the window! Lance Armstrong is currently riding his bike around France! He's doing the Tour de France all on his own, to prove he can do it! He's the real champion. Nevermind all the real champions he crushed into the dirt on the way to his false victories. Fuck Lance Armstrong. And fuck Billy Mitchell.
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,739
I wonder what the overlap is of people rooting for Billy "The King of Kons" Mitchell and people that voted for Trump.
It is nihilism. This is all meaningless trashy entertainment of character drama to them. Anyone who cares about any of this stuff even a little bit are the real assholes here.
 

violent

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,678
Yeah, Billy Mitchell, Lance Armstrong and Trump should team up and do a "I Didn't Cheat To Win" tour. I'm sure it will contradict all the evidence against them.

With Mitchell and Armstrong specifically, if they succeeded in their respective skills in a controlled scenario, while not redeeming or contradicting the evidence against them, it still proves they could do it. And that is of greater value than the judgment of the people.
 

Wood Man

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,449
The guy's a cheat, but I still find him fascinating for some reason and he still has some skill. Unfortunately for him the damage is done and I doubt TG will ever submit another score from him, even if he does it legit this time.

I go to his Ricky's sports bar every now and then. Last couple times it wasn't that great, wings were scrawny, dry and overcooked. But they still have some of the best hot sauce.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,117
With Mitchell and Armstrong specifically, if they succeeded in their respective skills in a controlled scenario, while not redeeming or contradicting the evidence against them, it still proves they could do it. And that is of greater value than the judgment of the people.
Billy didn't prove anything. He claimed to be the first person to hit a million points. In this case, being first matters. You don't set a Donkey Kong record just by being really good at Donkey Kong. You have to have a strategy, know what to prioritize in order to get the points you need in a finite number of levels. Steve Wiebe was the first person to legitimately execute a million-point strategy. Billy Mitchell is almost 30th in line, on a game that has been optimized to its very limit in the interim decade.

So no, Billy has not "proved he could do it."
 

violent

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,678
Billy didn't prove anything. He claimed to be the first person to hit a million points. In this case, being first matters. You don't set a Donkey Kong record just by being really good at Donkey Kong. You have to have a strategy, know what to prioritize in order to get the points you need in a finite number of levels. Steve Wiebe was the first person to legitimately execute a million-point strategy. Billy Mitchell is almost 30th in line, on a game that has been optimized to its very limit in the interim decade.

So no, Billy has not "proved he could do it."
I ain't talking about him being first. That's already been proven factually and obviously cannot be overwritten.

He did however prove that he can walk the walk regardless of his moral standing.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,265
With Mitchell and Armstrong specifically, if they succeeded in their respective skills in a controlled scenario, while not redeeming or contradicting the evidence against them, it still proves they could do it. And that is of greater value than the judgment of the people.

Mitchell wouldn't be doing all this unless it was about the judgement of the people. Why do you think he's out there making a big deal about this?
 
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JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,207
Chicago
Way I see it, it's like you're a good boyfriend/girlfriend until you cheat, then you're a bad one.

Same thing applies here.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
Yeah, he passed off a fake tape. That's easily worth a lifetime ban. There is no redemption for him.

It's probably not even 'just MAME'. I wouldn't be surprised if it is tool assisted and/or edited.
 

Starlite

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
565
Yeah, he passed off a fake tape. That's easily worth a lifetime ban. There is no redemption for him.

It's probably not even 'just MAME'. I wouldn't be surprised if it is tool assisted and/or edited.
Yeah, if I recall, his tape obviously being MAME is only one of it's many issues. That it had absolutely no audio, had extreme luck brings the legitimacy into question, although with no hard proof. His later 1.05 mil shows significant evidence of being spliced together, which brings the legitimacy of his initial 1.04 into real nebulous territory.

I don't think the community ever doubted that Billy Mitchell could get 1,000,000 in DK, and if there were, it was a small minority. The guy has shown that he is quite skilled at the game, there's not doubt about that. The real problem with the whole thing (as far as I know, some of this may be out-of-date) arises from:

- Passing off an emulated and potentially spliced/save-stated DK run as a legitimate arcade run in order to prevent Weibe from getting credit for the first 1mil DK run, effectively robbing him from that victory at the time
- Threatening those who put his run into question
- Maintained this lie for a decade+
- When found out, refusing to admit that his run was fraudulent and apologize for what he did

This whole "redemption tour" being about the idea that he somehow could never get 1 mil. is bizarre, and that this somehow redeems him of any of the shit he pulled is laughable.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,084
Yes, use google.
For example, to check the Twin Galaxies report here:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_d...s-donkey-kong-and-all-other-records-removed/4

I keep hearing how he used save states, or tampered with the footage to include gameplay from more than one session, to achieve his score, among other things.
People should read the report that resulted in his banning, so see what the actual "cheating" was.

There were no claims of the use of save states, nor image tampering. I don't think anyone even accused him of doing so.
What the image showed, is that board transitions on MAME are rendered differently than on an unmodified arcade, and the ones on his footage closely resemble the ones from MAME.
Nothing on the footage he submitted shows him using any kind of advantage, or nothing out of the ordinary in terms of gameplay, outside of what I mentioned above.

Uh actually Wes Copeland analyzed his submitted video and found out that the scores Billy got from barrel smashes were abnormally high. They're supposed to be random, however somehow Billy Mitchell got the random number generator to play in his favor an abnormally high number of times compared to any other legit performance ever, which could only realistically be obtained by using save states to replay levels over and over until you got the RNG to be where you wanted it.

https://twitter.com/wescopeland_/status/959533103457894400
 

ShinySunny

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,730
Oh, but hey guys, look out the window! Lance Armstrong is currently riding his bike around France! He's doing the Tour de France all on his own, to prove he can do it! He's the real champion. Nevermind all the real champions he crushed into the dirt on the way to his false victories. Fuck Lance Armstrong. And fuck Billy Mitchell.

Without Lance, biking wouldn't have grown in popularity. No one in America would bat an eye lid without his incredible story.
Same with Billy.
Their story was great.
Especially with Lance, he generated awareness and money for cancer.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...y-lance-armstrong-still-matters/#405bcc01458f

2012, and nearly 500 millions in research money.
He can cheat all he wants.
The greater good outweighs one lie.

And let's be honest, almost everyone cheated for the Tour. But Lance, he used his cheating way to generate more donation and more awareness.
What did the other champions do with their winning?
Exactly.
They can't beat Lance with dopes, and with both doping they were on equal ground, but from an overall prespective, Lance out achieved them all with his legacy of helping others fighting something that is more important than a yellow jacket and win/loss column.
 
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Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
Without Lance, biking wouldn't have grown in popularity. No one in America would bat an eye lid without his incredible story.
Same with Billy.
Their story was great.
Especially with Lance, he generated awareness and money for cancer.

It doesn't really matter. Billy didn't have the skills at the time to be the first DK player to crack a million so he cheated and lied and created false forensic evidence.

He can brag all day that he helped awareness of DK, but he's a loser, and a cheat, and his records should be erased for life. Anything he does now is just pointless.
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,435
It doesn't really matter. Billy didn't have the skills at the time to be the first DK player to crack a million so he cheated and lied and created false forensic evidence.

He can brag all day that he helped awareness of DK, but he's a loser, and a cheat, and his records should be erased for life. Anything he does now is just pointless.

Damn, did the dude go deep and hard on your partner or some shit?

I was under the impression Mitchell submitted scores on non official hardware and lied about it. Was there any evidence of save states of doctored footage?