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elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,825
As someone that used to have official forums for their games, to be honest with you, most devs actually do not want to interact with their games' official communities and forums. The only reason to go there is if it is part of your job description. Otherwise, for your mental health it is better to stay away. And quite often that is encouraged, to prioritise your own mental health over engaging with a community. I can fully understand why they may not be following the forums well and moderating closely.

When we had the Battlefield forums, going on them was very demotivating, and there was little point to go there and have a quality discussion about the game with someone, because that was so rare. Unfortunately, as games get bigger, forums become more and more toxic places.
 

Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,023
I personally feel like the lesson we should take from "all companies are bad" is to take a closer look at other companies and criticize them accordingly rather than taking it easier on Activision-Blizzard. For example, maybe uncritically recommending FFXIV to lapsed WoW players isn't the best reaction to this fiasco?


Users here were definitely not responsible about the Cyberpunk 2077 situation.

Thanks. I'm also taking this stance.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,682
Hamburg, Germany
I personally feel like the lesson we should take from "all companies are bad" is to take a closer look at other companies and criticize them accordingly rather than taking it easier on Activision-Blizzard. For example, maybe uncritically recommending FFXIV to lapsed WoW players isn't the best reaction to this fiasco?


Users here were definitely not responsible about the Cyberpunk 2077 situation.

So can someone who knows elaborate on this in a seperate thread? The one post from 7 years ago is the only thing I've found after a short search, and everything else seemed like vague pointing towards.. things and/or words happening or not. What did Yoshi-P do, and what did the FFXIV team do? I'd honestly appreciate a thread about what's going on (if there's something going on) at FFXIV's dev team.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,731
I can fully understand why they may not be following the forums well and moderating closely.
I think it can be forgiven in a non-Minority Report world for trash to eventually be posted to a community forum because of the inevitability of it. My problem with Blizzard's staff is that they equivocate all posts; a racist post gets the same treatment as a snarky one responding negatively to the racism. On top of that, they've got a Reddit style vote system that will flag any post as moderation worthy, and in an environment of incels, it's very easy for staff to just ban members who are pro-inclusion based upon mob rule. The way the forum is set up and maintained guarantees a shitty environment, and hell, given the lawsuit, this was probably by design. Ultimately if that is the best these billion dollar companies can do, these forums should be shut down.
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,784
Fort Lauderdale
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Tbm24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,329
I think it can be forgiven in a non-Minority Report world for trash to eventually be posted to a community forum because of the inevitability of it. My problem with Blizzard's staff is that they equivocate all posts; a racist post gets the same treatment as a snarky one responding negatively to the racism. On top of that, they've got a Reddit style vote system that will flag any post as moderation worthy, and in an environment of incels, it's very easy for staff to just ban members who are pro-inclusion based upon mob rule. The way the forum is set up and maintained guarantees a shitty environment, and hell, given the lawsuit, this was probably by design. Ultimately if that is the best these billion dollar companies can do, these forums should be shut down.

The forums were actually a decent place to be around 2008-2009 when I was active on them. Granted there was a lot of shit, but there was decent discussion happening and from what I remember, their mods/community managers were more visible/active. Granted I'm speaking strictly from the WoW side of things as that's my only reference point. It's gotten increasingly more hands off as the years went which ironically reflects how hands off the WoW themselves have been with the community as a whole to the point where they actually gives us next to no information about why they do anything. So, the forum is going to reflect that disconnection.
 

neonneongod

Member
Feb 21, 2019
294
So can someone who knows elaborate on this in a seperate thread? The one post from 7 years ago is the only thing I've found after a short search, and everything else seemed like vague pointing towards.. things and/or words happening or not. What did Yoshi-P do, and what did the FFXIV team do? I'd honestly appreciate a thread about what's going on (if there's something going on) at FFXIV's dev team.
at a fanfest cosplay contest yoshi p made a reference to a specific scene where a female character steps on a male character at fanfest to a female cosplayer of said character. Said cosplayer was taking photos at the con stepping on people recreating it, as far as i remember, so i'm not sure its' worth getting up in arms about that.

Other than that most of the gripes are localization related and pretty fair (the eng localization tends to have some raunchy jokes, occasionally in poor taste and of course women get the short end of it).

It's worth cleaning up but i'm not sure anything here is within the same galaxy as what's going on at blizzard and it seems in oddly poor taste to conflate the two.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,682
Hamburg, Germany
at a fanfest cosplay contest yoshi p made a reference to a specific scene where a female character steps on a male character at fanfest to a female cosplayer of said character. Said cosplayer was taking photos at the con stepping on people recreating it, as far as i remember, so i'm not sure its' worth getting up in arms about that.

Other than that most of the gripes are localization (the eng localization tends to have some raunchy jokes, occasionally in poor taste and of course women get the short end of it).

It's worth cleaning up but i'm not sure anything here is within the same galaxy as what's going on at blizzard and it seems in oddly poor taste to conflate the two.
Thank you.

Honestly, " i'm not sure its' worth getting up in arms about that." is pretty much summarizing the impression I got so far, and I'm not sure why everyone bringing it up does so with only the vaguest of implications, usually. Feels a bit intentional conflating and artificial to me as well.
 

Steiner_Zi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,345
Woke capitalism was the culture internally for a very long time, as most of the people working in rank and file positions at the publisher's office were left leaning and diversity was regularly celebrated with warm word and the occasional pride party (that contractors weren't even supposed to attend). Yet the moment their ass is exposed, the company shows its true face and lashes out at its workers and victims, tells everyone not to talk about it internally, and goes full union buster.

Fucking burn it to the ground. That place drove me fucking therapy and I hope it never recovers. The amount of unethical shit happening under that roof is disgusting, including leadership openly discussing layoffs in front of the vulnerable parties and being generally callous towards hourly workers.

edit: I'm not done yet. The fucking Hong Kong shit that happened a few years ago was also disgusting, and we were banned from speaking internally about it after we voiced our disgust at the company's handling of the situation. Narrative moments were scrapped or rewritten to make sure we didn't anger any reactionary players or hostile governments at the demand from C-class.

Or the hiring of 'VIP management' within the company to make sure Saudi Princes continued to bankroll microtransactions in COD and kowtowing to their every whim.
This post should not be lost in the last page. Sorry about your experience and thank you for shouting out all these toxic incidents.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Thank you.

Honestly, " i'm not sure its' worth getting up in arms about that." is pretty much summarizing the impression I got so far, and I'm not sure why everyone bringing it up does so with only the vaguest of implications, usually. Feels a bit intentional conflating and artificial to me as well.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Okay but that doesn't actually mean that Blizzard-Activision is worse than the other companies, it just means they (California) have enough solid evidence and that the company has enough assets that it's worth them spending resources to go after. I'm for linking what we know to every Blizzard-Acti thread but I still feel banning them when we know the same thing is happening everywhere else in the games industry just seems to me like it's to make people feel better like they've achieved something when they really haven't at all and let's people act like the problem was only that company. I've already seen enough people encourage people to move from WoW to final fantasy MMO for this even though we know abuse and sexism happens there too.

Hot take, but maybe even though we can safely assume most (if not all) cops are bastards, maybe it would be okay to ban those that are on trial for murder?

Seems like banning/suppressing companies that are being sued by state entities with copious evidence isn't a super high bar.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Yes, I saw that, but it's also vague as fuck. Japan studios? US localization offices? Both? What happened? How many incidents? How "bad"? What on earth happened?

I easily believe there was SOME shit going on, but how does that post help anyone with anything?
Great, now the sexism and harassment comparison police have arrived - nice to know she has to prove it was bad enough to you

Hot take, but maybe even though we can safely assume most (if not all) cops are bastards, maybe it would be okay to ban those that are on trial for murder?

Seems like banning/suppressing companies that are being sued by state entities with copious evidence isn't a super high bar.
This forum is not a trial and see the above stuff that happens with posters going to compare which stuff counts to be worthy of "bad enough" - I'm really not dealing with that. I would literally leave this forum if that stuff starts happening were women's experiences gets judged to each other of what sexual harassment and sexism is worse and worth banning of discussion. And I doubt I'd be the only one.
 

JimD

Member
Aug 17, 2018
3,511
Yes, I saw that, but it's also vague as fuck. Japan studios? US localization offices? Both? What happened? How many incidents? How "bad"? What on earth happened?

I easily believe there was SOME shit going on, but how does that post help anyone with anything?

By pointing out that it happens EVRYWHERE. Its important in the context that it's adding to dozens of people who worked at various devs coming forward at saying it was happening there too. They're being posted in response to the takes of "Sure [company x] probably isn't great either, but at least they're not as bad as Blizzard." She doesn't need to show receipts to get that message out there.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,682
Hamburg, Germany
By pointing out that it happens EVRYWHERE. Its important in the context that it's adding to dozens of people who worked at various devs coming forward at saying it was happening there too. They're being posted in response to the takes of "Sure [company x] probably isn't great either, but at least they're not as bad as Blizzard." She doesn't need to show receipts to get that message out there.
And I absolutely believe that. How did I say otherwise?

what I asked for, initially, was some more information on what the hell is/was happening at Squenix.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Sure, if you think that of me carry on ignoring literally all my posts in this and many, many other threads.
But that's exactly what you just did there and your other posts don't undo that. You can learn from it or be defensive but that doesn't change the fact you dismissed a women discussing her harassment (which she mentions has a case file at the same California department) because you didn't count it as bad enough as Blizzard. She doesn't have to go into her personal details (and it's extremely tramautising to have to give every horrible detail to prove that you've been hurt enough to count as a victim) just to prove it's enough to you.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,682
Hamburg, Germany
But that's exactly what you just did there and your other posts don't undo that. You can learn from it or be defensive but that doesn't change the fact you dismissed a women discussing her harassment (which she mentions has a case file at the same California department) because you didn't count it as bad enough as Blizzard. She doesn't have to go into her personal details (and it's extremely tramautising to have to give every horrible detail to prove that you've been hurt enough to count as a victim) just to prove it's enough to you.
It's a gif with tha vaguest of texts. I have no idea what you're talking about.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
And I absolutely believe that. How did I say otherwise?

what I asked for, initially, was some more information on what the hell is/was happening at Squenix.
You have to understand that, sometimes, a person doesn't want to give more details because they're worried about how it could affect their career. Most of the time, we won't see public details about a harassment situation. It's up to you to trust them or not.
 

JimD

Member
Aug 17, 2018
3,511
And I absolutely believe that. How did I say otherwise?

what I asked for, initially, was some more information on what the hell is/was happening at Squenix.

You asked for specific details on an allegation of harassment and then asked how it helps if she doesn't supply it. She mentions in the replies to that tweet that she filed complaints with the DFEH specificaly. I just told you how it helps. Go read that post again if you think it was appropriate.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,682
Hamburg, Germany
You have to understand that, sometimes, a person doesn't want to give more details because they're worried about how it could affect their career. Most of the time, we won't see public details about a harassment situation. It's up to you to trust them or not.
My god. Yes, I do understand that. Yes, I absolutely believe shit's going on at Squenix.

Literally all I asked for is "Does someone know what she's talking about exactly, or has any examples of what's going on in their work culture".

edit
she mentions the dfeh in the replies, though not capitalized so it's easy to miss.
Thank you! I had literally no idea there are replies on this, since all that's been posted was the gif post. This actually helps.
 
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Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
My god. Yes, I do understand that. Yes, I absolutely believe shit's going on at Squenix.

Literally all I asked for is "Does someone know what she's talking about exactly, or has any examples of what's going on in their work culture".
I'm not sure you understand.

We don't have the details, and we might never know. You have to decide what to do with an information that is super vague. I know it's frustrating, but I'm sure you understand that we need to respect the victim's desire to not share more.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
I'm not sure you understand.

We don't have the details, and we might never know. You have to decide what to do with an information that is super vague. I know it's frustrating, but I'm sure you understand that we need to respect the victim's desire to not share more.
And also point out that some of the later posts she added to that Twitter thread were ones she had to add more detail because, as she mentioned, people went on at her and didn't believe her. She shouldn't have had to do those extra tweets.
 

Mzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
578
Portugal
Woke capitalism was the culture internally for a very long time, as most of the people working in rank and file positions at the publisher's office were left leaning and diversity was regularly celebrated with warm word and the occasional pride party (that contractors weren't even supposed to attend). Yet the moment their ass is exposed, the company shows its true face and lashes out at its workers and victims, tells everyone not to talk about it internally, and goes full union buster.

Fucking burn it to the ground. That place drove me fucking therapy and I hope it never recovers. The amount of unethical shit happening under that roof is disgusting, including leadership openly discussing layoffs in front of the vulnerable parties and being generally callous towards hourly workers.

edit: I'm not done yet. The fucking Hong Kong shit that happened a few years ago was also disgusting, and we were banned from speaking internally about it after we voiced our disgust at the company's handling of the situation. Narrative moments were scrapped or rewritten to make sure we didn't anger any reactionary players or hostile governments at the demand from C-class.

Or the hiring of 'VIP management' within the company to make sure Saudi Princes continued to bankroll microtransactions in COD and kowtowing to their every whim.
The day that they presented us with the Blitzchung mess was the last day I've logged into Battle.net. Thank you for sharing that with us, it just confirms all of the skin crawling feelings I was having about Blizzard during that time...

And the stuff with the Saudis definitely seals the deal for me. I know that "burn it to the ground" is catchy and memorable, problem is that a lot of innocents (meaning the devs) would get caught in the crossfire if that came to pass. But then again, how is anyone supposed to rehabilitate that nest of vipers?
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,631
T-mobile no longer appears to be a sponsor for CDL or OWL, no idea if this is related to the lawsuit since this is still a rumor

This would be pretty big considering they are the biggest sponsor at least for OWL
charlieintel.com

T-Mobile reportedly no longer a sponsor of Call of Duty League & Overwatch League - Charlie INTEL

T-Mobile appears to have ended their sponsorship of both the CDL and OWL after Activision Blizzard harassment lawsuits surfaced.

I didn't consider that sponsors might pull out of the league. T-Mobile was pretty prominent in their stuff so that'll be seen as a big blow internally, and hopefully adds more pressure to do something meaningful.
 
I didn't consider that sponsors might pull out of the league. T-Mobile was pretty prominent in their stuff so that'll be seen as a big blow internally, and hopefully adds more pressure to do something meaningful.
I think change will only happen if a lot of shareholders see stock prices tank and see eye watering sums in Lawsuits and decide to oust Bobby & Co.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,631
I think change will only happen if a lot of shareholders see stock prices tank and see eye watering sums in Lawsuits and decide to oust Bobby & Co.

I agree but sponsors pulling out is a step in that direction with it having more of an immediate financial impact, while the lawsuit is still a long term issue. Obviously the esports stuff is a small part of the overall business but it's an early sign that brands already want to distance themselves.
 

Solidsnakejej

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,784
Fort Lauderdale
The real issue will be what the contracts with the team owners and if they have something in there about Blizzard doing something that affects the league.

If sponsorships start going they're going to have a lot of unhappy owners who spent 10s of millions of dollars for these spots.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,152
I just saw a video which brought up this article again. Their response in the update sounds exactly like some of the responses they gave to all of the current shit.

www.gamesindustry.biz

Activision Blizzard says interviewing diverse candidates for every opening "unworkable"

Activision Blizzard is looking to avoid a shareholder proposal that it interview at least one diverse candidate when it…

Also Kotaku Interviewed the Blicon woman

kotaku.com

What Really Happened At That BlizzCon Panel, According To The Woman In The Video

A World of Warcraft fan reflects on a decade-old moment in light of Activision Blizzard's new lawsuit
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
The day that they presented us with the Blitzchung mess was the last day I've logged into Battle.net. Thank you for sharing that with us, it just confirms all of the skin crawling feelings I was having about Blizzard during that time...

And the stuff with the Saudis definitely seals the deal for me. I know that "burn it to the ground" is catchy and memorable, problem is that a lot of innocents (meaning the devs) would get caught in the crossfire if that came to pass. But then again, how is anyone supposed to rehabilitate that nest of vipers?

Well, innocents on the ground are going to be laid off every February anyway, so it doesn't really matter. The only people protected at any time are the execs and management.

Edit: Also, while I'm on the topic, the VIP people were in charge of managing several deep pocketed whales. I singled out the Saudi connection because I was uncomfortable about it at the time but there were whales from all over.

If anyone wants to know why microtransactions are pushed so heavily, consider that there are a handful of people single handidly propping up those decisions and the industry is so addicted to that cash influx that they'll make sweeping, anti-consumer decisions just to make sure that those whales keep spending. If they stopped buying or didn't move to the next game, we'd make custom communications (social, email, whatever) to send them free shit and the latest games to keep them in the ecosystem and spending. They spent so much that it was worth the time and product sales losses.

It was the same song and dance when I was in mobile as well.
 
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Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,920
I didn't consider that sponsors might pull out of the league. T-Mobile was pretty prominent in their stuff so that'll be seen as a big blow internally, and hopefully adds more pressure to do something meaningful.
Yeah, a sponsor pulling out seems kind of, I'm not sure if "unprecedented" is the word I'd use, but it's definitely something I didn't expect. Do we know how many sponsors these leagues have on average?
 

Tbm24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,329
Yeah, a sponsor pulling out seems kind of, I'm not sure if "unprecedented" is the word I'd use, but it's definitely something I didn't expect. Do we know how many sponsors these leagues have on average?
The teams have their own sponsors while the leagues themselves have their own crop of sponsors. I feel like that's a meaningful distinction to make here.
 

BBboy20

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,044
Or the hiring of 'VIP management' within the company to make sure Saudi Princes continued to bankroll microtransactions in COD and kowtowing to their every whim.
DvAC.gif
 

Auros01

Avenger
Nov 17, 2017
5,513
Unreal. Yet, not unexpected.

How could you possibly even begin to look like you're genuinely making an effort with thst ghoul at the top.
Because this company is toxic to its very core. They're only going to make enough effort that people either forget about this whole situation or just lose interest and move on. Those thinking Activision Blizzard will come out of this situation a healthier company are probably fooling themselves.