If this was a thread in r/amitheasshole , the answer would ordinary be everyone sucks in this situation. Sure trump caused it, but he incompetence of not even having a no fly area and just shooting down a plane is staggering
It is their fault but Trump intentionally stirred up a hornet's nest.
The shooting down of a commercial airliner *from their own damn airport in their own damn country* is 100 percent on Iran.
The shooting down of a commercial airliner *from their own damn airport in their own damn country* is 100 percent on Iran.
Yes.Iran must pay compensation, accept responsibility and apologise sincerely, cooperate with investigations and be open, and do what they can to ameliorate a tragedy they can never make right. Because they are responsible. They should have grounded all flights, at least.
Trump is responsible too. Without him, that plane is safe. And he knew, because he was warned, that these are the consequences of escalation from assassinating the No. 2 in Iran's Government. Iran was always going to go to the highest level of alert where things like this tragedy become a very real and knowable risk. The fact he did all this to distract from his own crimes only makes it worse.
Responsibility isn't binary. It's never one thing or another. The world is complicated. Which is why you don't drone-strike murder people out of the blue without even informing most of your own Government, then threaten more war crimes, and expect everything to be peaceful and safe. Trump shares blame and fuck anyone who covers for him on this. He knew. He fucking knew this kind of collateral damage, this kind of loss of life was a possibility, and he didn't care. He knew open war was a possibility and he didn't care.
The reason it matters that Trump is to blame too is that he needs to be removed from power now. Because he makes decisions like this. How are you going to deal with him if you never hold him responsible for his own actions?
When you dole out blame and leave Iran completely blameless that doesn't seem too different from a defense of Iran.It doesn't look like the CEO nor anyone in here is defending Iran's leadership. Two things can be bad.
Literally no one thinks Iran is blameless. This is the worst kind of strawman.When you dole out blame and leave Iran completely blameless that doesn't seem too different from a defense of Iran.
Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The CEO blames the US without blaming Iran as do many posters. If a poster says only "this is on Trump" or "this is the US's fault" then why should we assume that they also hold Iran at fault.Literally no one thinks Iran is blameless. This is the worst kind of strawman.
When you dole out blame and leave Iran completely blameless that doesn't seem too different from a defense of Iran.
Would it have happened without Trump's escalation? No. If Iran's military were better would it have happened even with the escalation? No. Would Trump's escalation have happened if the contractor hadn't been killed? Any assignment of blame that doesn't pin at least 80% of it on Iran is misguided.
I despise Trump,
It isn't his fault dumbasses shoot down a plane immediately taking off from their own airport
Why are you implying Iran got a pass from this CEO?
Assume away. I read them and saw nothing positive about Iran but no blame for being this incident.His tweets literally refer to Iran as a dangerous nation that the world was trying its best to deal with before Trump decided to blow it all up. Again, trying to equate "blame Trump" with "absolving Iran" is the biggest kind of bullshit.
Edit: I'm just going to assume you didn't actually read the tweets themselves.
Some people have set a conveniently arbitrary start point for all of this at the killing of Soleimani. Trump is a dumbass, but he didn't force Iran to make a stupid decision like not shutting down commercial flights prior to a missile strike. Those idiots are 100 percent responsible for their own ineptitude. There's fog of war and collateral damage, and then there's just straight up incompetence. This was incompetence. Their shameful coverup after the fact only compounds it.What about the war mongering of Iran in the Middle East? There is a reason that almost no country in the Middle East wants to do anything with Iran. They are bssically isolated. That's why Isreal has informal permission to do what they need to do against Iran and the rest of the countries just look away.
The US is certainly not blameless in the mess they helped create in the region for decades but Iran is way worse.
What was an Iranian General doing in Iraq? Nothing good for sure. He knew he wasnt safe and he knew it. Every country was gunning for him.
Also, Iran just slaughtered hundreds to thousands of their own people in protests last year.
Iran must pay compensation, accept responsibility and apologise sincerely, cooperate with investigations and be open, and do what they can to ameliorate a tragedy they can never make right. Because they are responsible. They should have grounded all flights, at least.
Trump is responsible too. Without him, that plane is safe. And he knew, because he was warned, that these are the consequences of escalation from assassinating the No. 2 in Iran's Government. Iran was always going to go to the highest level of alert where things like this tragedy become a very real and knowable risk. The fact he did all this to distract from his own crimes only makes it worse.
Responsibility isn't binary. It's never one thing or another. The world is complicated. Which is why you don't drone-strike murder people out of the blue without even informing most of your own Government, then threaten more war crimes, and expect everything to be peaceful and safe. Trump shares blame and fuck anyone who covers for him on this. He knew. He fucking knew this kind of collateral damage, this kind of loss of life was a possibility, and he didn't care. He knew open war was a possibility and he didn't care.
The reason it matters that Trump is to blame too is that he needs to be removed from power now. Because he makes decisions like this. How are you going to deal with him if you never hold him responsible for his own actions?
Assume away. I read them and saw nothing positive about Iran but no blame for being this incident.
The US escalated tensions.
Iran kept planes flying.
They fired the missile(s) that brought the plane down.
They tried to cover up that they had done so
This guy puts more blame on the US than Iran. That seems dumb to me.
I'm not one of the posters that thinks that the US has no blame. Killing Soleimani was a highly escalatory step and it created the environment for this type of mistake to happen. I think if someone is doling out blame, however, they should make it clear that Iran is primarily to blame for shooting down the plane while still putting some responsibility on the US for creating the environment in which that was more likely. There are a ton of posters on here who have posts that start and stop with blame on the US as if Iran shouldn't be held to any sort of expectation or standard. It's very hard for me to see the logic in those posts.Only because you are directly fixated on the action as being the sole portion where blame can be assigned.
Literally no one but Iran can be blamed for the "action" of shooting a plane down. It was their military, with their SAM sites, shooting a plane in their airspace.
None of that is being debated, so none of it needs repeating.
But to put us in this scenario, where Iran was on high alert and ready to shoot aircraft down, it had to start somewhere. I'm sure if you want you can just go back in time far enough to really see who "started" it, but in the now, the situation was tense but manageable, and Trump decided, without cause, to push it to the point where this could happen.
That's why Canadians want Trump to shoulder the blame, because we literally would not be having this discussion without him. And trying to imply that if we don't shit on Iran literally every waking second of our lives we're absolving them of blame is incredibly disingenuous.
A lot of people struggle with complexity and critical thinking. It's cultural.
What kind of no-logic-having bullshit is this post? Iran is automatically at fault for everything everyone says then?Whoever tries hating on trump by defending the horrible regime of Iran, is more evil than Trump.
I'm not one of the posters that thinks that the US has no blame. Killing Soleimani was a highly escalatory step and it created the environment for this type of mistake to happen. I think if someone is doling out blame, however, they should make it clear that Iran is primarily to blame for shooting down the plane while still putting some responsibility on the US for creating the environment in which that was more likely. There are a ton of posters on here who have posts that start and stop with blame on the US as if Iran shouldn't be held to any sort of expectation or standard. It's very hard for me to see the logic in those posts.
Canadians want to hate on America so bad they blame Trump instead of the brutal autocratic regime that shot the plane down
Sure, if you view it in a vacuum and ignore the fact that Iran have also been escalating over the last 12 months.At least Iran's portion of the responsibility was an honest mistake.
Trump's? Not so much.
I have seen many Redditors on the Canadian Subthreads saying those who oppose Trump are "left-wing extremists". It's not just isolated (unless there are bots at work).
What the fuck is this response? What the fuck are you talking about?What kind of no-logic-having bullshit is this post? Iran is automatically at fault for everything everyone says then?
I despise Trump,
It isn't his fault dumbasses shoot down a plane immediately taking off from their own airport
Unless Iran is randomly shooting down passenger planes, how can you not see this is partially US/Trumps fault as well?
I made this point in the other thread.
You would think blame was a limited resource the way people are twisting themselves in knots to absolve Trump of any responsibility.
In the end, when America needlessly escalates a situation, we all suffer. When Trump assassinated this dude, we all worried there were going to be casualties. Now that we have them, suddenly it has nothing to do with Trump.
Fucking joke.
Been the same shit for the past 18 years.