Cats: Indoor or Outdoor?

[ɣGammaɣ]

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My daughter's cat used to love going outside, so she used to take him on strolls around our large, fenced backyard on a leash. He passed away last July and she can't stop wondering if that's how he picked up the disease that took his life, as it is pretty rare in indoor-only cats. I used to feed birds in that yard and a couple of neighborhood cats used to hop the fence to kill birds, leaving their corpses at the bases of the birdpoles with crushed skulls, and shit in our yard. So it's plausible. Whenever she decides she's ready for another cat, I don't think she's gonna do that anymore.

I can only speak for my own experiences in the US but I think it's really wrong to let cats roam here. It's also generally against doctors' advice here. I have seen far more dead cats in roads than I ever cared to. And it's not cool to let an invasive predator roam around your neighbors' yards. Never will be. Nobody should have to tolerate a neighbor's pet on their property messing up the garden, pooping, and killing local wildlife. If you can keep it in your yard then it's your business, but the minute it hops the fence into my yard it's my business too.

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And than when it is your business, what would you do?
Edit: And I'm sorry your daughter had this traumatic experience btw.

 

[kidnemo]

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And than when it is your business, what would you do?

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Abduct. Snuggle. Love forever. (I assume)

 

[Replicant]

Cats should never be unleashed to roam free unattended. They do nothing but kill wildlife and chances are your cat will get killed by another animal.

 

[Dr. Giggles]

I think they should be indoors only. I have asshole neighbors that leave their poor cats (they have like 5) outside. It will be raining/freezing and cats will have no shelter. Kinda makes me mad. Like why even have a cat if you just leave it outside with hardly any food/water and no shelter

 

[ɣGammaɣ]

Abduct. Snuggle. Love forever. (I assume)

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Than it's all good - this is what you do if a kitty visits you. But you can't keep them (all)!

 

[PinkSpider]

Cats should never be unleashed to roam free unattended. They do nothing but kill wildlife and chances are your cat will get killed by another animal.

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I think you've missed the many posts stating that lots of places don't have predators roaming. And they do a lot, they pretty much sleep in the sun and shit in my garden. The last three cats I've had couldn't hunt for shit.

 

[Johann Mistletoe]

By the logic of "keeping" an outside cat that hunts whatever it pleases, it's fair game for me to "keep" a coyote that does the same thing, even if that means it will be eating cats.

Keep your cat indoors. Play with them if they have a desire to "hunt". Don't need to let them mess with wildlife populations or get exposed to disease, the elements, bugs, and predators.

 

[francium87]

I wish I'll hit the cat lottery and happen upon a cat that likes to be walked.

Otherwise, it's going to be indoors only. Effects on other wild life is my chief concern.

 

[echoshifting]

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And than when it is your business, what would you do?
Edit: And I'm sorry your daughter had this traumatic experience btw.

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Appreciate that

It depends on the persistence of the cat, the situation, and whether or not the owner is willing to curb behavior. My current yard is much smaller than the one I just described and I can only fit one birdpole, so if I'm having a cat problem here I can set up my motion-activated sprinkler targeting the base of the pole. But it hasn't been a problem; there is a busy road right behind my house and tons of large dogs in small yards, I don't think an outdoor cat would last long here. I've lived here about eight months and I haven't seen one. I believe it's against the HOA rules here as well to let cats roam.

My last yard was a large chunk of wildlife-friendly native forest on a hillside and that was a lot more challenging. I did call animal control on one occasion to remove a collar-less cat that wouldn't stop killing birds in my yard.

 

[Walter White Walker]

My cats are indoor only. They would kill and be killed outdoors.

 

[Yasuke]

My girls are indoor only, though that's only due to where we live really. I imagine I'd let them run in the backyard or something if I had a home for it. My black cat used to sit on our balcony at our last apartment, and she clearly misses being allowed outside. She sits by the back door a lot.

 

[Martinski]

Had a mix without supervision at my parents, they had their own hatch there they could use at their own leisure. Biggest issue with this was they sometime came in with live animals lol.

 

[P-Bo]

Like, if you live in a safe environment, then ofc let your cat outside.

If you're like me and you live in a place surrounded by raccoons, coyotes, dipshit truckers, and assholes who make it a sport to kill animals, then you can bet your ass I'm keeping my cats inside.

Fortunately my boy doesn't seem to care much about it; the one time he got loose (fell off our deck/balcony), he stayed huddled near my bedroom window until we found him and brought him back inside.

 

[Sunster]

Indoor only is best for the ecosystem and the health of the cat. no arguing there. but i'm not judging people who do outdoor.

 

[Zen]

Are we really pushing the narrative that cats don't add pressure on local wildlife that are already facing challenges from other human-caused factors? I see acknowledgement that cats do kill an insane number of fauna, but somehow that number means nothing, it's actually fine and no cause for concern apparently. I don't buy it, and relying on the Royal bird society of England when they have been criticized for that claim is sketch.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/10/cats-killing-birds-gardens-david-attenborough

He told the Radio Times that cats and the cold winter weather, when frozen ground makes it difficult to find food, are the biggest problems faced by birds.

"Cats kill an extraordinarily high number of birds in British gardens," the broadcaster said.

Asked whether cat owners should buy bell collars for their pets at Christmas, he replied: "That would be good for the robins, yes."

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rspb-accused-of-going-soft-on-cats-to-appease-donors-nv976zf8qqq

RSPB accused of going soft on cats to appease donors

Research has found that cats kill 55 million birds a year

Ben Webster
Wednesday December 30 2015, 12.01am GMT, The Times
Britain's richest wildlife charity has been accused of ignoring the threat cats pose to birds because it fears losing millions of pounds in donations from cat owners.

The RSPB is deliberately underestimating the damage done by Britain's 10 million cats, which kill more than 55 million birds a year, according to Songbird Survival, a rival charity.

The RSPB has an annual income of more than £130 million, including £30 million from legacies. Songbird Survival, which by contrast had an income of just over £200,000 last year, believes that cats are a major cause of the steep decline in house sparrows, starlings, song thrushes, dunnocks and many other once-common species.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20160731062330/http://songbird-survival.org.uk/cats.html

• Free-roaming domestic and feral cats are the biggest killers of songbirds in the UK – estimates range from 55 - 100 million+ killed per year
• The domestic cat population has more than doubled since 1975 – from 4.5 to over 10 million nowadays
• Free-roaming domestic and feral cats are non-native animals, and are estimated to kill around 30% of the annual productivity of our songbirds
• Cats are only one of 29 predators of songbirds but as domestic pets, they should be the easiest to control
• One in four households owns at least one cat – cat predation is a national problem
• There are 6 times as many cats than the number of all foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, polecats and sparrowhawks put together
• Cats are also estimated to kill 220 million small mammals, reptiles and amphibians per year
• Free-roaming domestic and feral cats are driving the native, endangered, wildcat towards potential extinction through hybridisation

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• Cat 'curfews' and 'Trap-Neuter-Return' regimes are operated/proposed in New Zealand, Australia (close to some nature reserves) and in some states in the US. There has been a recent call for cat controls in Ireland, Germany and a contested Trap-Neuter-Return programme for feral cats in Israel.
• Feral cats were eradicated successfully on Ascension Island in order to protect nesting seabirds and trapped on St Helena to protect threatened waders
• UK cats kill songbirds at between 4 - 12 times the rate that illegal hunters in the Mediterranean kill migratory songbirds.
• 
  
  
  The CE of Birdlife International described the levels of songbird killing in the Med (20 million per annum) as both 'extraordinary and unsustainable'.
  
  
  How would she describe the 55 million songbird deaths caused by cats, annually, in the UK?
  
  
• Researchers at the Universities of Reading and Exeter reported widespread ignorance of the issue and described a state of denial by many UK cat owners
• Some conservation organisations are conflicted on the issue of cat predation – many members and donors are cat owners
• The issue is currently a political 'no-go' area due to widespread cat ownership and the political clout of cat protection bodies
• Sir David Attenborough has stated that "Cats kill an extraordinarily high number of birds in British gardens" and that their owners should "buy bell collars for their pets to help stop the deaths"
• Chris Packham has also stated that cats are exacting "….a demanding pressure on Britain's wildlife…." and that they should be kept in at night and given cat collars
• Pets such as cats do provide therapeutic benefits and companionship. Need this be at such a huge cost to our biodiversity when there are simple steps that cat owners could take to avert this?

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• No study has ever examined the impact of cats on songbirds at the population level
• Evidence shows that the recovering sparrowhawk population in the 1970-80s resulted in the decline of some songbird populations
• Cats kill around 3 times as many songbirds as sparrowhawks
• The mere presence of cats near birds' nests was found to decrease provision of food by a third while the resultant mobbing clamour from parent birds led in turn to increased nest predation by crows and magpies
• It is therefore far more likely that cats have an even greater impact on songbird populations than sparrowhawks
• The prevailing line that "there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats is having any impact on bird populations in UK" is simply no longer tenable.

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[AaronMT]

Ontario, suburbs, indoor 100%. Too much traffic, too cold half the year

 

[Polioliolio]

Just so you know, indoor cats will change your life, especially if you have more than one.

 

[The Boat]

 

[Dalek]

Are we really pushing the narrative that cats don't add pressure on local wildlife that are already facing challenges from other human-caused factors? I see acknowledgement that cats do kill an insane number of fauna, but somehow that number means nothing, it's actually fine and no cause for concern apparently. I don't buy it, and relying on the Royal bird society of England when they have been criticized for that claim is sketch.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/10/cats-killing-birds-gardens-david-attenborough



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rspb-accused-of-going-soft-on-cats-to-appease-donors-nv976zf8qqq



https://web.archive.org/web/20160731062330/http://songbird-survival.org.uk/cats.html

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I remember in past threads regarding this subject any evidence that contractdicted most UK member's beliefs were just hand waved away and met with a "I don''t believe any of that." type of attitude. "We've always done this so why should we change" etc type of attitude.

 

[super-famicom]

Here's a study on

The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United States

This article was published in 2013, but I'm still trying to see if there are any recent studies. I'll update this post if I can find one.

The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United States - Nature Communications

Free-ranging domestic cats cause wildlife extinctions on islands, but their impact on wildlife in mainland areas is unclear. This study presents an estimate of mortality caused by cats in the United States, suggesting that 1.4–3.7 billion birds and 6.9–20.7 billion mammals are killed annually.

www.nature.com

Anthropogenic threats, such as collisions with man-made structures, vehicles, poisoning and predation by domestic pets, combine to kill billions of wildlife annually. Free-ranging domestic cats have been introduced globally and have contributed to multiple wildlife extinctions on islands. The magnitude of mortality they cause in mainland areas remains speculative, with large-scale estimates based on non-systematic analyses and little consideration of scientific data. Here we conduct a systematic review and quantitatively estimate mortality caused by cats in the United States. We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals. Scientifically sound conservation and policy intervention is needed to reduce this impact.

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Edit-

Found a research article published in 2020:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.10073

Domestic cats and their impacts on biodiversity: A blind spot in the application of nature conservation law

Abstract

1. Free-ranging domestic cats Felis catus, from owned pets to feral cats, impact biodiversity through predation, fear effects, competition, disease and hybridization. Scientific knowledge regarding these impacts has recently increased, making it timely to assess the role of nature conservation legislation in this connection. We do so with particular regard to the obligations of governments around the world under international wildlife law.
2. First, we provide an overview of current knowledge, based on a literature review, concerning the ways in which domestic cats impact wildlife; the resulting effects on native species' populations and ecosystems; and available strategies for addressing these issues. In light of this knowledge, using standard legal research methodology, we then identify and interpret relevant legal instruments, with a particular focus on international wildlife treaties. Lastly, we identify and assess factors that may influence the implementation of relevant obligations.
3. The outcomes of this analysis indicate that numerous legal obligations of relevance to free-ranging domestic cats already apply under global treaties such as the Convention on Biological Diversity, Convention on Migratory Species and World Heritage Convention, and a range of regional legal instruments for biodiversity conservation. Of particular significance are obligations concerning (a) invasive alien species; (b) protected areas and (c) protected species.
4. Many national authorities around the world are currently required, under international law, to adopt and implement policies aimed at preventing, reducing or eliminating the biodiversity impacts of free-ranging domestic cats, in particular by (a) removing feral and other unowned cats from the landscape to the greatest extent possible and (b) restricting the outdoor access of owned cats.
5. Factors that can influence or impair the application of these obligations include considerations of feasibility, scientific uncertainty, the interests of cat owners and the (perceived) interests of domestic cats themselves. Even if such factors may to some extent explain why many authorities have hitherto failed to take effective action to address the threats posed by free-ranging domestic cats, from a legal perspective these factors provide little ground for justifying non-compliance with international wildlife law.

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[fontguy]

Never met a vet who recommended outdoors.

 

[Cantaim]

I think I'd have to watch it indoors. I know the musical is considered a classic but my neighbors would give me odd looks if I watched the musical outdoors.

*oh you mean the other kind of cats

 

[Ferrio]

Never met a vet who recommended outdoors.

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Never met a doctor that recommended eating fried food either. Doctors are always going to say what's "best", it's our decision to weigh the pros and cons of each of our particular circumstances and gauge if it's worth it for an increase of happiness/quality of life.

 

[Man with Knife]

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[Fanuilos]

Mine are indoor only. I live in a rural area so there are predators and people are known to shoot cats with a pellet gun to keep them off their property.

 

[Tygre]

Are we really pushing the narrative that cats don't add pressure on local wildlife that are already facing challenges from other human-caused factors?

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Yes.

There are ~10 million outdoor cats in the UK, and there have been that many for a long ass time. We are a small island. There are somehow still plenty of birds, mice, voles and whatever else scurrying around.

Source: The astounding number of bird, mice, voles, and assorted other tiny critters my cat catches and occasionally kills.

I remember in past threads regarding this subject any evidence that contractdicted most UK member's beliefs were just hand waved away and met with a "I don''t believe any of that." type of attitude. "We've always done this so why should we change" etc type of attitude.

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I mean, we've done this for a couple thousand years, and the types of things cats catch and kill are still here, so, yeah, it's probably fine.

 

[fontguy]

Never met a doctor that recommended fried food either. Doctors are always going to say what's "best", it's our decision to weigh the pros and cons of each of our particular circumstances and gauge if it's worth it.

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At no point did I say you don't have the right to let your cat outside, eat fried food, or make all sorts of other generally bad choices. Hell, you can mix the two and start your cat on a new "all fried foods" diet.

The number of Keeping Mr. Whiskers Alive Professionals who would tell you that's a good and smart thing to do is about the same.

 

[Ferrio]

At no point did I say you don't have the right to let your cat outside, eat fried food, or make all sorts of other generally bad choices. Hell, you can mix the two and start your cat on a new "all fried foods" diet.

The number of Keeping Mr. Whiskers Alive Professionals who would tell you that's a good and smart thing to do is about the same.

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I know, I'm just saying we constantly every day ignore the "best" advice from doctors for our own happiness, so seems weird people are getting hung up on that.

 

[Deleted member 93841]

Mine are indoor only, both for their own health and safety (I live in the city) and because that way they don't kill unnecessary animals and don't become nuisances in the neighbourhood. Lots of people with outdoor cats have no idea what their cats get up to when they're not home and are completely unaware that their pets turn into neighbourhood pests. Especially those who don't bother neutering/spaying their cats.

Yes.

There are ~10 million outdoor cats in the UK, and there have been that many for a long ass time. We are a small island. There are somehow still plenty of birds, mice, voles and whatever else scurrying around.

Source: The astounding number of bird, mice, voles, and assorted other tiny critters my cat catches and occasionally kills.

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This has big "it's snowing outside, so what global warming?" energy.

 

[kidnemo]

I remember in past threads regarding this subject any evidence that contractdicted most UK member's beliefs were just hand waved away and met with a "I don''t believe any of that." type of attitude. "We've always done this so why should we change" etc type of attitude.

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Quite a few people already doing it in this thread (not?) surprisingly. Also hilarious citing personal anecdotes about their own cats or seeing no decrease in wildlife in their areas...

There are people with specialized educations, doing non-partisan studies that cover multiple years, data source, etc, etc... but people will still say "lol well ACTUALLY..."

 

[Wolfgav]

We let our cats out in our backyard 2-3 times a day. But we supervise them the whole time, and our yard is fenced in. I understand not a lot of people have that same luxury, so I get why the majority of people say indoors only.

 

[Zen]

Yes.

There are ~10 million outdoor cats in the UK, and there have been that many for a long ass time. We are a small island. There are somehow still plenty of birds, mice, voles and whatever else scurrying around.

Source: The astounding number of bird, mice, voles, and assorted other tiny critters my cat catches and occasionally kills.



I mean, we've done this for a couple thousand years, and the types of things cats catch and kill are still here, so, yeah, it's probably fine.

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You counter with an anecdote? Really

 

[Unaha-Closp]

I wouldn't have a cat as a pet if it couldn't go outside when it wanted to. I don't agree with indoor only cats. Seems cruel, to me. We had cats, growing up, some lived into their twenties, some died young of illness, 1 I remember died of being hit by traffic, 1 ran away after we moved house, etc, they all had the option of going outside when they choose. It's the norm in the UK and Ireland so my opinion is based on me being from there I imagine.

 

[Housecat]

My cats can choose. During summer they spend a lot more time outside, but often just sleeping on grass/in a bush/on a chair outside. The door stays open if the weather is nice and they will come back inside lots of times to just check in before going outside again. During winter they are outside for short periods of time, depending on how cold it is. If the temp is nice they like playing in the snow. I make pathways for them and they play tag. They are not outside when I'm asleep or away, and they don't go far as they have no reason to and they come back inside when I call for them. I keep litterboxes inside, but they usually prefer to go outside to do their business. They are not wary of either inside or outside, but enjoy both. It's not like cats that are allowed outside never wants to be inside.

That being said, I live in the countryside/forest in Norway. it's pretty sweet to be a cat here if you have the choice of indoor/outside.

 

[Adventureracing]

I'd rather not have my pets killing large swathes of native wildlife.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I don't have a cat any more but late at night one stuck its head through my open window on the second floor and gave me a fright. How many days do I have left to live?

 

[dtcm83]

We started with our cats indoor only then switched to indoor/outdoor (unsupervised), don't regret the decision one bit.

Pros: increased quality of life/happiness for the cats, reduced use of in-home cat litter box (cats taught themselves to poop and pee outside)
Cons: constant requests to go in/out of the sliding back door (and I mean constant, sometimes as soon as they are let out they want right back in or vice versa), increased risk of disease or them getting mauled by local wildlife

 

[deadbass]

Yes.

There are ~10 million outdoor cats in the UK, and there have been that many for a long ass time. We are a small island. There are somehow still plenty of birds, mice, voles and whatever else scurrying around.

Source: The astounding number of bird, mice, voles, and assorted other tiny critters my cat catches and occasionally kills.



I mean, we've done this for a couple thousand years, and the types of things cats catch and kill are still here, so, yeah, it's probably fine.

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We've been fishing in oceans for thousands of years, and there's still fish in the ocean (source: I have seen some fish in the ocean sometimes), so probably no need to change our habits or anything.

 

[Wazzy]

Indoor only. I have no respect for anyone still supporting the idea of outdoor cats.

When I was growing up it was a common attitude and almost everyone including my family had outdoor cats so I understood why people were doing it back then even though it was made clear how fucked it was to do it. I saw cats dying from ingesting or licking poisonous things, getting hit by cars and some getting attacked by other wildlife like coyotes. I will never forget having to listen to a cat get hit by a car and slowly but loudly dying in pain while the owners screamed and cried. It was fucking traumatizing.

That's not even addressing things like cats breeding and making strays plus wildlife being affected. So yeah fuck the outdoor cat support.

 

[Bend]

I still support the idea of outdoor cats

We lock them inside at night and they mostly just sleep in the sun in the backyard during the day. They've got a cat door they can go through to eat or use the garage litter box if they want to. They love it, and it's a lot easier for us

 

[Tygre]

This has big "it's snowing outside, so what global warming?" energy.

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You counter with an anecdote? Really

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No, I counter with a truly humungous experiment we've been running on this island for the last ~two thousand years.

The results are in: It's fine. If anything the reduction in dedicated mousers is probably partly to blame for the rampancy of mice.

We've been fishing in oceans for thousands of years, and there's still fish in the ocean (source: I have seen some fish in the ocean sometimes), so probably no need to change our habits or anything.

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Are you suggesting cats recently developed the equivalent of industrialised trawling and bottom dragging?

If we were still fishing using roughly the same methods we were were a thousand years ago, even with the vastly increased population of today, I daresay fish stocks would be a lot more healthy.

 

[karmaforgotme]

I have 4 indoor cats, but my wife also help feeds a feral colony which of course are outside. She has known several of those cats for 7 years now and 2 of our current cats are from feral communities because we failed as foster parents (we couldn't give them up after fostering).

 

[earthdogjon]

Indoor if you care about them.

 

[super-famicom]

Quite a few people already doing it in this thread (not?) surprisingly. Also hilarious citing personal anecdotes about their own cats or seeing no decrease in wildlife in their areas...

There are people with specialized educations, doing non-partisan studies that cover multiple years, data source, etc, etc... but people will still say "lol well ACTUALLY..."

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I posted a couple of research articles in an earlier post, just found another one that was published in 2019. Unlike the other articles, which focused more on the US, this one focuses on the UK:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.6

It's titled "Hunting behaviour in domestic cats: An exploratory study of risk and responsibility among cat owners" and a section touches on cat owner perceptions and ownership/management of cats.

 

[Deleted member 10691]

Never met a doctor that recommended eating fried food either. Doctors are always going to say what's "best", it's our decision to weigh the pros and cons of each of our particular circumstances and gauge if it's worth it for an increase of happiness/quality of life.

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Almost exactly what people who oppose the covid vax say. "I'm just evaluating evidence and deciding what is best for me"

 

[nStruct]

My 15 year old cat is indoor only. She actually doesn't care about the outdoors, she's had the chance many times to check it out and just wants to stay inside instead.

 

[deadbass]

Are you suggesting cats recently developed the equivalent of industrialised trawling and bottom dragging?

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oh i'm not suggesting that at all, just sharing an anecdotal observation and making a broad sweeping statement based on that

 

[Ferrio]

Almost exactly what people who oppose the covid vax say. "I'm just evaluating evidence and deciding what is best for me"

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We're going to make a comparison between a transferable disease and.... going outside?

If covid only affected the people who made the bad decisions you'd have a point. My cat going outside isn't going to get someone (if not multiple) else killed or permanently affected.

 

[Couleurs]

I stopped letting my cats go outside years ago when some dickhead tortured my cat and caused life threatening injuries (he lived, luckily). I'd love to let my two current cats go outside since they would enjoy the stimulation of exploring and hunting, but people are the worst and I'd rather keep them safe.

 

[Teapot Jeffries]

Indoors.

I'd much rather have my pet live 15-20 years instead of 3-5 and I know they're safe from getting themselves killed from cars, dogs, bugs, pesticides, poisonous plants, hawks, coyotes, raccoons, badgers, or other humans while also not killing entire ecosystems.

And that's not to say they don't get outside time. I leash them and let them roam around the back yard or lay leashes on the front porch. I'm also out there watching them the entire time as well and it's never for more than an hour.