Cats: Indoor or Outdoor?

[Kittens McMittens]

Quite a few people already doing it in this thread (not?) surprisingly. Also hilarious citing personal anecdotes about their own cats or seeing no decrease in wildlife in their areas...

There are people with specialized educations, doing non-partisan studies that cover multiple years, data source, etc, etc... but people will still say "lol well ACTUALLY..."

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If you actually look at those studies, the overwhelming majority of predation is caused by feral cats, and even then the things they are killing are vermin - rats, mice, and rabbits. Those are things that humans want to kill in any case. There is no association between cat predation and bird populations. The drop in the wild bird population is caused by habitat loss, and that is being driven by industrial agriculture. In cases where cats have been associated with species decline it's in situations where humans have caused habitat loss by building houses there - so that's rather bolting the door after the horses have run.

Keep your cat indoors if you want, but the idea that cat predation is a key driver of species decline is tendentious at best. Even the main bird charity in the UK, the RSPB, doesn't think there is a strong conservation argument to keep your cat indoors.

 

[Deleted member 93841]

No, I counter with a truly humungous experiment we've been running on this island for the last ~two thousand years.

The results are in: It's fine. If anything the reduction in dedicated mousers is probably partly to blame for the rampancy of mice.

Are you suggesting cats recently developed the equivalent of industrialised trawling and bottom dragging?

If we were still fishing using roughly the same methods we were were a thousand years ago, even with the vastly increased population of today, I daresay fish stocks would be a lot more healthy.

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You're conveniently ignoring the fact that cats (even feral cats) today have less natural predators and easier access to both safe shelter and food, meaning they can live longer lives and sustain bigger populations.

There's a reason many countries work so hard to keep feral populations under control.

The situation with cats in the 21st century is not the same as it was during the middle ages.

 

[Deleted member 10691]

We're going to make a comparison between a transferable disease and.... going outside?

If covid only affected the people who made the bad decisions you'd have a point. My cat going outside isn't going to get someone (if not multiple) else killed or permanently affected.

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The decision to let cats go outside impacts the biodiversity of everyone in the area and (in a worst case scenario) could result in permanent impacts to the bird population in the region or to cat predatory becoming more comfortable around human habitats.

 

[bob1001]

This topic didn't end well the last time it came up lol. The answer is: It depends. Do your research, are cats a threat to local wildlife in your local area? If so then keep them indoors. Are cats in danger in your local area? If so keep them indoors.

I live in England and the answer to both these questions for me is no, so I'm not going to unnecessarily keep my cat indoors.

 

[Zen]

If you actually look at those studies, the overwhelming majority of predation is caused by feral cats, and even then the things they are killing are vermin - rats, mice, and rabbits. Those are things that humans want to kill in any case. There is no association between cat predation and bird populations. The drop in the wild bird population is caused by habitat loss, and that is being driven by industrial agriculture. In cases where cats have been associated with species decline it's in situations where humans have caused habitat loss by building houses there - so that's rather bolting the door after the horses have run.

Keep your cat indoors if you want, but the idea that cat predation is a key driver of species decline is tendentious at best. Even the main bird charity in the UK, the RSPB, doesn't think there is a strong conservation argument to keep your cat indoors.

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See this post per the RSPB. They're always the fallback people use and it should be telling that there aren't more organizations claiming cats are fine and don't hurt anything, while numerous organizations and every rescue and conservation society I've ever laid eyes upon have insisted upon keeping cats indoors and shown studies to back it. Meanwhile all the RSPB can muster is 'there's no definitive proof of anything' which they then go on to disingenuously peddle as a suggestion that cats aren't actually affecting the environment. They are. They exacerbate the decline of ecosystems. They are a direct product of humanity affecting the biosphere and they are our problem to fix.

 

[Ferrio]

The decision to let cats go outside impacts the biodiversity of everyone in the area and (in a worst case scenario) could result in permanent impacts to the bird population in the region or to cat predatory becoming more comfortable around human habitats.

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Sure, if it's applicable to the area/cat.

My living room window has killed more birds than my cat by a huge degree. Only thing really getting hunted are the voles under my house.

 

[Deleted member 10691]

My living room window has killed more birds than my cat.

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320720309873 is the most recent study I found on SD. It looks specifically a free-ranging domestic and feral cats in China and found:

We estimate that the minimum annual amount of predation by all free-ranging cats in China is: 1.61-4.95 billion invertebrates, 1.61 -3.58 billion fishes, 1.13-3.82 billion amphibians, 1.48-4.31 billion reptiles, 2.69-5.52 billion birds, and 3.61-9.80 billion mammals. Thus, we show that free-ranging cats cause a tremendous death toll that may be profoundly impacting China's wildlife populations and biodiversity. Our results indicate that there is an urgent need for increased research into the impacts of cats on wildlife in China, and for management and policy that reduces numbers of free-ranging cats and thus mitigates their harmful effects on China's wildlife.


I don't think there is a good region to think cats in other countries would be less harmful.

 

[Ferrio]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320720309873 is the most recent study I found on SD. It looks specifically a free-ranging domestic and feral cats in China and found:

We estimate that the minimum annual amount of predation by all free-ranging cats in China is: 1.61-4.95 billion invertebrates, 1.61 -3.58 billion fishes, 1.13-3.82 billion amphibians, 1.48-4.31 billion reptiles, 2.69-5.52 billion birds, and 3.61-9.80 billion mammals. Thus, we show that free-ranging cats cause a tremendous death toll that may be profoundly impacting China's wildlife populations and biodiversity. Our results indicate that there is an urgent need for increased research into the impacts of cats on wildlife in China, and for management and policy that reduces numbers of free-ranging cats and thus mitigates their harmful effects on China's wildlife.


I don't think there is a good region to think cats in other countries would be less harmful.

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I don't know why you think a study from China would be applicable to me or my cat? You act like my cat is hiding this shit from me behind my back, nor is she free ranging or feral. I'm a responsible owner, so I know what my cat is getting into out there.

 

[Deleted member 10691]

I don't know why you think a study from China would be applicable to me or my cat? You act like my cat is hiding this shit from me behind my back.

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If you can say with 100% certainty that your cat isn't killing animals and never will (and not just killing them without bringing back the remains) then sure go ahead. I don't know how you'd ever be certain of that unless your cat is disabled and physically can't hunt.

To tie it back to my original comment about anti-vaxxers:

• We have pretty solid evidence that outdoor cats in aggregate have a negative impact on biodiversity. Your argument seems to be "my cat doesn't kill birds so it can go outside" <- and I could be misunderstanding you.
• We also have pretty solid evidence that refusing vaccines in aggregate exacerbates the current pandemic. Many anti-vaxxers argue that they personally haven't infected anyone and won't so they don't need a vaccine.

Both are examples of participating in an activity that has a negative externality because the person doesn't believe they have a direct contributory effect to the negative outcome. My argument that is even in the best-case scenario where they are right and they personally aren't contributing their actions creating an environment where the action is more likely to be accepted.

 

[Zen]

Sure, if it's applicable to the area/cat.

My living room window has killed more birds than my cat by a huge degree. Only thing really getting hunted are the voles under my house.

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Anecdotes don't mean much at the scale we're talking about with environmental impact. And it does seem to be the same case in the UK.

https://amp.theguardian.com/science...d-play-stop-cats-killing-wildlife-study-finds

There are 7.5 million cats in the UK and they are estimated to kill about 100 million animals a year. The toll is billions in the US and 230 million in Australia. Mammals such as mice, rats and rabbits make up two-thirds of the UK kills, a quarter are birds such as sparrows and blackbirds, and the rest are frogs and lizards.

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The video refers to cats in the US, but I have a hard time believing cats in the UK are somehow different. And these are pets, not stray/feral populations.

 

[Ferrio]

Anecdotes don't mean much at the scale we're talking about with environmental impact. And it does seem to be the same case in the UK.

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Then we should get rid of windows too? It's just such a weird argument to be made when it's such a drop in the bucket in the horrible shit we do every day that ruins biodiversity just because it makes our life happier.

And ya, anctedotes do matter in this case. My cat killed 2 birds in her 10 years of life in the middle of Alaskan Wilderness. If that's the downfall of the ecosystem, then sure I'll take the damn blame.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Would be interesting to know how many people actually stick to their environmentalist values and aren't full of shit. Things like meat eating, owning pets (especially large dogs), plastic and paper products etc.

ie.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320720309873 is the most recent study I found on SD. It looks specifically a free-ranging domestic and feral cats in China and found:

We estimate that the minimum annual amount of predation by all free-ranging cats in China is: 1.61-4.95 billion invertebrates, 1.61 -3.58 billion fishes, 1.13-3.82 billion amphibians, 1.48-4.31 billion reptiles, 2.69-5.52 billion birds, and 3.61-9.80 billion mammals. Thus, we show that free-ranging cats cause a tremendous death toll that may be profoundly impacting China's wildlife populations and biodiversity. Our results indicate that there is an urgent need for increased research into the impacts of cats on wildlife in China, and for management and policy that reduces numbers of free-ranging cats and thus mitigates their harmful effects on China's wildlife.


I don't think there is a good region to think cats in other countries would be less harmful.

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Same person on NFTs

I made a decent amount buying and selling them in 2021 so probably. It seems like easy money righty now. NFT threads today read a lot like bitcoin threads circa 2015

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[Deleted member 10691]

Would be interesting to know how many people actually stick to their environmentalist values and aren't full of shit. Things like meat eating, owning pets (especially large dogs), plastic and paper products etc.

ie.


Same person on NFTs

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whataboutism. I don't think of myself as a good person and live in self-loathing and depression.


If people with outdoor cats agree their actions aren't good and do it anyway I'm fine with that.

 

[ɣGammaɣ]

Appreciate that

It depends on the persistence of the cat, the situation, and whether or not the owner is willing to curb behavior. My current yard is much smaller than the one I just described and I can only fit one birdpole, so if I'm having a cat problem here I can set up my motion-activated sprinkler targeting the base of the pole. But it hasn't been a problem; there is a busy road right behind my house and tons of large dogs in small yards, I don't think an outdoor cat would last long here. I've lived here about eight months and I haven't seen one. I believe it's against the HOA rules here as well to let cats roam.

My last yard was a large chunk of wildlife-friendly native forest on a hillside and that was a lot more challenging. I did call animal control on one occasion to remove a collar-less cat that wouldn't stop killing birds in my yard.

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Reasonable responses, trieing to scare them away and when it gets out of hand, call a professional. Some cats really have it with birds.

 

[Ferrio]

Would be interesting to know how many people actually stick to their environmentalist values and aren't full of shit. Things like meat eating, owning pets (especially large dogs), plastic and paper products etc.

ie.


Same person on NFTs

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See, fucking clownshoes. If it's a cheap buck to be made, who cares. A living animal that gets to enjoy the sun, fuck that cat!

whataboutism. I don't think of myself as a good person and live in self-loathing and depression.

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Then I'm not sure why your trying to be the arbiter of what is good or right in this thread.

 

[Deleted member 10691]

See, fucking clownshoes. If it's a cheap buck to be made, who cares. A living animal that gets to enjoy the sun? Fuck you!



Then I'm not sure why your trying to be the arbiter of what is good or right in this thread.

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Pointing out bad behavior isn't being the arbiter. It is just pointing out problematic behavior. "Yup, I get this is bad and I'm going to keep doing it because X" is a valid response and ends the conversation.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

If people with outdoor cats agree their actions aren't good and do it anyway I'm fine with that.

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I actually agree that cats should be better controlled, especially feral populations being desexed. There's good people doing work with that. I just often notice how many forum threads divulge into petty cat vs dog wars, which ends up including a whole lot of posturing about what's good for the environment.

 

[Zen]

Then we should get rid of windows too? It's just such a weird argument to be made when it's such a drop in the bucket in the horrible shit we do every day that ruins biodiversity just because it makes our life happier.

And ya, anctedotes do matter in this case. My cat killed 2 birds in her 10 years of life in the middle of Alaskan Wilderness. If that's the downfall of the ecosystem, then sure I'll take the damn blame.

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Anecdotes don't matter here because we're talking about data at a scale far beyond an individual pet. We need to recognize that our pets contribute to a larger problem by being free to prey upon wildlife and mate with other cats. Pet cats that aren't spayed or neutered and are let outside can and do mate and create new feral cats. That might not be your cat specifically, but you can surely see how pet cats are part of the problem.

 

[everdom]

Next time an outdoor cat takes a swipe at my wolfhound while I'm walking him on a lead should I just turn away and let him eat the cat? Because that sounds a lot like what having an outdoor cat is like.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Next time an outdoor cat takes a swipe at my wolfhound while I'm walking him on a lead should I just turn away and let him eat the cat? Because that sounds a lot like what having an outdoor cat is like.

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Yes, you should totally teach your dog to attack smaller mammals.

 

[DJChuy]

Indoor.

People are asshole drivers here, so the chances them getting run over is high. I do have an enclosed patio where they can see outside and feel the fresh air.

 

[Nell]

Would be interesting to know how many people actually stick to their environmentalist values and aren't full of shit. Things like meat eating, owning pets (especially large dogs), plastic and paper products etc.

ie.


Same person on NFTs

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says a lot hey? They don't care about the environment.

 

[Zen]

Era just has a lot of cat haters who pretend to care about the environment.

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I'm gonna respond to this comment here. There are a lot of things all of us can be doing to help the environment and not letting our pet cats be free to kill the local ecosystem is part of it. All of our individual choices matter. Merely existing taxes the planet, but the answer isn't to languish and wait for oblivion, we can all choose to help in what ways we can. I don't claim to be a saint, but I have made an effort to reduce my red meat intake and general energy footprint, or what measures I can living in 21st century society. I've also come to the conclusion that the only way I can be a good example to kith and kin is to become active in conservation efforts in my community. Beyond that, the efforts need to be directed towards legislation and people of influence to make major strides. It is all connected, and cats contribute to it.

 

[teruterubozu]

When we adopted our cat the shelter had us sign a "contract" to never let our cat be an outdoor cat. Just as well anyway. Lots of roadkill, critters and ticks in our vicinity.

 

[skeezx]

like i said in that cat thread today, i've had lots of cats throughout my life and they all just ran away

some were obviously jonesing to get out of dodge, some had "personality" and wanted to chill with me. but eventually most of them yeet

i'll never own cat again unless i own some huge ass property or something

 

[Reluctantly Gumblesmug]

i like the personalities of outdoor cats better. it does depend on where you live though.
i'm in colorado and there are too many coyotes here, so i'm against it where i'm at. me and my girlfriend built a catio in the yard for our cats, so they get their fix to some degree!

 

[Kangi]

The neighborhood I grew up in was lousy with outdoor cats. Two of ours were from separate instances of someone in the neighborhood losing track of theirs 'til they showed up at our screen porch some night, needing attention either from being hungry or spooked by God-knows-what. Neither person wanted theirs back, since quelle surprise they were neglectful owners. We wouldn't let either of them outside. One would try constantly to escape so that she could stalk the birdbath, but the other was too terrified of stepping out of the house for corralling her to be an issue

Extra perplexing to me was seeing ESA cats running around outside on my college campus. What part of your cat getting attacked by a raccoon provides you with emotional support?

 

[TaySan]

We recently lost a cat to coyotes so we try to keep our cats indoors.

 

[THEVOID]

I wish just one of my three cats would go on walks like I see on YouTube. I tried and they nope out. I do let them out on our enclosed balcony and 2/3 really enjoy that.

 

[Many]

My cats had always been indoor cats that can go outside almost anytime.
They are neutered; there are not coyotes, hawks, eagles, lions, etc, where I live; the only thing they can kill are sparrows, pigeons, rats, lizard, so they are not danger to the ecosystem. I like that way.

 

[AstronaughtE]

Indoor with walks for our girl that likes it. Our other girl hasn't been exposed to the out doors, and doesn't care very much. We live on a busy road, near a couple of workshop buildings. There's a lot cat hating dog people in those workshops and, though it's currently unfounded, i dont want them using poison or traps. Our cat liked to climb and explore in a nearby shed, and I worry she's going to fall, or shift something heavy on top of her, or catch something sharp and cut herself. Further, there's a vet and dog park nearby, I don't want her upsetting the animals at the vet or harassing dogs. Finally, I don't want her visiting other families. She typically had her collar on, but I don't want another family falling in love and being tempted to take her for themselves.

 

[fontguy]

I know, I'm just saying we constantly every day ignore the "best" advice from doctors for our own happiness, not sure why that shouldn't extend to animals if possible.

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The number of health risks free outdoor roaming poses to tiny creatures that don't understand concepts like infection, disease, and mortality is so immense that I think it's fair to say it eclipses an occasional (or even daily) KFC double down.

 

[everdom]

Yes, you should totally teach your dog to attack smaller mammals.

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Not teaching it, just ignoring it while it does natural dog hunting instinct things. It's the same thing as having a free range cat, you're ignoring the damage they do.
I should point out that I'm from Australia and feral cats have decimated the amazing and diverse local fauna.

 

[Ferrio]

The number of health risks free outdoor roaming poses to tiny creatures that don't understand concepts like infection, disease, and mortality is so immense that I think it's fair to say it eclipses an occasional (or even daily) KFC double down.

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We talking about children or cats now? My point being, if you apply this same logic to a person, people would think your a monster no matter how much you claim you're protecting them for their own good. This whole discussion is very black and white when it should be a issue of weighing the pros and cons just like we do any health advice.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Not teaching it, just ignoring it while it does natural dog hunting instinct things. It's the same thing as having a free range cat, you're ignoring the damage they do.

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This isn't as clever as you think it is. Dogs are dangerous to humans and other pets, so teaching them that its fine to kill things is sociopathic. Killing what might be someone's loose cat to own people on the internet just reads like just another person who doesn't actually give a shit.

 

[everdom]

This isn't as clever as you think it is. Dogs are dangerous to humans and other pets, so teaching them that its fine to kill things is sociopathic. Killing what might be someone's loose cat to own people on the internet just reads like just another person who doesn't actually give a shit.

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I'm not training him to do that, in my OP I said I'm specifically trying to train him out of it. I'm acknowledging it's an issue with the animal and adjusting what I do accordingly.
If your cat likes the outdoors then teach it to walk with a leash.

 

[fontguy]

We talking about children or cats now? My point being, you apply this same logic to a human or person and people would think your a monster no matter how much you claim you're protecting them.

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Ok, since this is the approach you to take—if you just showed a human child with roughly the same mental capacity as an adult cat (say 3-5 years old, and that might be generous) out the door alone and said "have fun wandering, hope you come back!" every day, you'd get a visit from Child Protective Services.

 

[Ferrio]

Ok, since this is the approach you to take—if you just showed a human child with roughly the same mental capacity as an adult cat (say 3-5 years old, and that might be generous) out the door alone and said "have fun wandering, hope you come back!" every day, you'd get a visit from Child Protective Services.

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Because cats has more self preservation and defense mechanisms than a 3 year old. Probably has more self preservation than most teenagers. If cats were that useless living outside feral cats wouldn't be an issue. Not to mention you talk about abandoning the cat outside with no thought, instead of letting it outside because you've done your due diligence.

 

[kidnemo]

Would be interesting to know how many people actually stick to their environmentalist values and aren't full of shit. Things like meat eating, owning pets (especially large dogs), plastic and paper products etc.

ie.


Same person on NFTs

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You can care about cats and STILL eat meat for example. One doesn't exclude the other.

I PERSONALLY don't eat meat, am a very active conservationist, and volunteer with local animal rescues.

But that doesn't make my opinion any more valid than someone else who is "full of shit".

It's like that "yet you participate in a society, curious!" comic...

 

[fontguy]

Because cats has more self preservation and defense mechanisms than a 3 year old. Probably has more self preservation than most teenagers. If cats were that useless living outside feral cats wouldn't be an issue.

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You're right. We can't simply map human experiences onto cats, so let's both stop doing it.

 

[Ferrio]

You're right. We can't simply map human experiences onto cats, so let's both stop doing it.

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I think I was more mapping it to them being a living creature, and confining them inside for safety with no room to to reconsider is barbaric no matter how much you claim it's for their good. Sometimes it's the necessary evil, and it's just not possible as it has been in the past for me and my cats. But for some people they live in areas where it's a possibility, and should be up for consideration for the animal's overall happiness even if it adds a miniscule risk.

Choosing a medium between risk and happiness is what life is.

 

[Zen]

I think I was more mapping it to them being a living creature, and confining them inside for safety with no room to to reconsider is barbaric no matter how much you claim it's for their good. Sometimes it's the necessary evil, and it's just not possible as it has been in the past for me and my cats. But for some people they live in areas where it's a possibility, and should be up for consideration for the animal's overall happiness even if it adds a miniscule risk.

Choosing a medium between risk and happiness is what life is.

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...Miniscule?

 

[everdom]

I think I was more mapping it to them being a living creature, and confining them inside for safety with no room to to reconsider is barbaric no matter how much you claim it's for their good. Sometimes it's the necessary evil, and it's just not possible as it has been in the past for me and my cats. But for some people they live in areas where it's a possibility, and should be up for consideration for the animal's overall happiness even if it adds a miniscule risk.

Choosing a medium between risk and happiness is what life is.

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But it's not just about the risk to the cats, it's the impact cats can have when they are left free to roam.

 

[fontguy]

I think I was more mapping it to them being a living creature, and confirming them inside for safety with no room to to reconsider is barbaric no matter how much you claim it's for their good. Sometimes it's the necessary evil, and it's just not possible and it has been in the past for me and my cats. But for some people they live in areas where it's a possibility, and should be up for consideration for the animal's overall happiness.

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"Minuscule" is, ironically, a massive understatement.

And please, look back on my original comment. You're responding to things I never said.

 

[SliChillax]

How would a cat whose never been outdoors know how to properly hunt, survive, and keep itself alive? Also, what about declawed cats?

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Wtf people declaw cats?

 

[Fridaynightcatlady]

I've only ever had indoor cats (I had a patio, so she'd go with me out from time to time), but I read that letting them out is very dangerous for them.

 

[Ferrio]

"Minuscule" is, ironically, a massive understatement.

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...Miniscule?

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FFS, it's miniscule where I currently live. There's plenty of places it's not, like I said in the post you both quoted. Again it's all relative, why is this so hard to understand?

 

[Alcoremortis]

My cat is technically a mix, but her outside time lately has been about 5 min because she goes out, immediately hates it, and wants back in. And then wants out for another 5 just to make sure it was awful.

 

[gozu]

Indoor only* and it's a hard line for me.

Removing my opinion on the safety for the animal completely...

The harm they do to the local ecosystems is really crazy. Cats are efficient killers and wreck absolute havoc on wildlife.

Indoor cats. Don't remove claws. Don't dock/crop. Adoption over breeders. Get your pets spay/neutered.

No grey area in my mind.

*leashed supervised animals being the exception obviously

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This is my exact position.

 

[grand]

Indoor only but I'm also in the US which is about as unfriendly to outdoor cat situations as you can get