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Cat Owners, Are your Cats:

  • Indoor Only

    Votes: 664 65.7%
  • Outdoor Only

    Votes: 16 1.6%
  • A Mix (without supervision)

    Votes: 208 20.6%
  • A Mix (With supervision)

    Votes: 123 12.2%

  • Total voters
    1,011

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
FFS, it's miniscule where I currently live. There's plenty of places it's not. Again it's all relative, why is this so hard to understand?
I believe you were genuine with your post, just the word highlights the difference of perspectives we have. I'm reading what articles I see about outdoor cats, and it really is complety normal in the UK, in fact I see British people perturbed at the US/elsewhere disallowing or frowning upon letting cats be outdoors. The trend I'm seeing is that cats are growing in population pretty much everywhere, so I expect this will be an issue that will keep coming back.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0151962

Everywhere non-owners were more likely than owners to agree that pet cats killing wildlife were a problem in cities, towns and rural areas. Agreement amongst non-owners was highest in Australia (95%) and New Zealand (78%) and lowest in the UK (38%). Irrespective of ownership, over 85% of respondents from all countries except China (65%) valued wildlife in cities, towns and rural areas. Non-owners advocated cat legislation more strongly than owners except in Japan. Australian non-owners were the most supportive (88%), followed by Chinese non-owners (80%) and Japanese owners (79.5%). The UK was least supportive (non-owners 43%, owners 25%). Many Australian (62%), New Zealand (51%) and Chinese owners (42%) agreed that pet cats killing wildlife in cities, towns and rural areas was a problem, while Hawaiian owners were similar to the mainland USA (20%). Thus high endemic biodiversity might contribute to attitudes in some, but not all, countries. Husbandry practices varied internationally, with predation highest where fewer cats were confined. Although the risk of wildlife population declines caused by pet cats justifies precautionary action, campaigns based on wildlife protection are unlikely to succeed outside Australia or New Zealand. Restrictions on roaming protect wildlife and benefit cat welfare, so welfare is a better rationale.

This abstract seems to be in line with at least what's occurred on Era, and shows me we have a while to go until domestic cats are taken seriously as an invasive species.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,102
We foster cats in an apartment, so it's fully indoor. Of all the cats that we've fostered only 2 of them kept wanting to go out and they both eventually quit after a while and were happier staying inside.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
See this post per the RSPB. They're always the fallback people use and it should be telling that there aren't more organizations claiming cats are fine and don't hurt anything, while numerous organizations and every rescue and conservation society I've ever laid eyes upon have insisted upon keeping cats indoors and shown studies to back it. Meanwhile all the RSPB can muster is 'there's no definitive proof of anything' which they then go on to disingenuously peddle as a suggestion that cats aren't actually affecting the environment. They are. They exacerbate the decline of ecosystems. They are a direct product of humanity affecting the biosphere and they are our problem to fix.
Again, you just have lots of personalities disagreeing with the RSPB. Go look at the data. The Nature study that really kicked all this off mixed together feral cats and domestic cats, and even says in it explicitly that most of its estimated variation (i.e. the big scary biscuits number) comes from feral cats. When you compare even the largest estimates for cat predation on the bird population it is nothing next to habitat loss. Something like 75% of the total wild bird population is affected by that! That is what is driving species decline.

The RSPB argument is sound. The bird species that thrive around human houses are doing ok - that makes sense, because we're building so many of them. Also the claim they just want to appease donors is specious - bird people tend to hate cats, as this thread demonstrates.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,745
Hamburg, Germany
My cats own my apartment as well as the somewhat big roof terrace + balcony (DE, so likely not what US would consider "big"), plus they regularily visit my parents with me and they have a fenced off-area + a big house over there as well as a secondary territory. They're doing just fine :)

9Sw4iK5.png


They're street kittens from Spain and were _very_ afraid of everything human and outside, so I'm perfectly fine with them not free-roaming.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,414
Outdoors. They are happy to roam, make friends, sometimes enemies and to go on adventures. Yes, they'll get hurt sometimes, but that's part of life. I never subscribed to "cats are happier indoors", seeing how we don't lock ourselves in either. A human that never knew freedom wouldn't question it either. Of course cats kill other animals, that is part of their nature. If I get a cat, though, I won't deny them being true to themselves. Same reason I will never get a bird just to put it in a cage. I would think myself cruel and selfish. It's not a zero sum game no matter the decision, and it's us humans bringing animals into our homes, not them themselves. So why punish them?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,592
Racoon City
The fact a full blown argument has broken out about whether or not the amount of wildlife cats eviserate is an acceptable amount is kinda funny. Like okay sure they might kill 100s of millions yearly or billions depending on the country but like....inevitable? lol
 

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
Again, you just have lots of personalities disagreeing with the RSPB. Go look at the data. The Nature study that really kicked all this off mixed together feral cats and domestic cats, and even says in it explicitly that most of its estimated variation (i.e. the big scary biscuits number) comes from feral cats. When you compare even the largest estimates for cat predation on the bird population it is nothing next to habitat loss. Something like 75% of the total wild bird population is affected by that! That is what is driving species decline.

The RSPB argument is sound. The bird species that thrive around human houses are doing ok - that makes sense, because we're building so many of them. Also the claim they just want to appease donors is specious - bird people tend to hate cats, as this thread demonstrates.
I don't think it's sound logic to presume that liking birds means hating cats. The main counterpoint that the songbirds charity brought up is the RSPB disingenuously suggests that cats aren't a problem by hinging their entire argument on there not being any scientific evidence of a link between cat predation and bird population decline. Basically saying 'you can't say with certainty...!'. That's why I also included this list of counterpoints from Songbirds Survival in that post.

  • No study has ever examined the impact of cats on songbirds at the population level
  • Evidence shows that the recovering sparrowhawk population in the 1970-80s resulted in the decline of some songbird populations
  • Cats kill around 3 times as many songbirds as sparrowhawks
  • The mere presence of cats near birds' nests was found to decrease provision of food by a third while the resultant mobbing clamour from parent birds led in turn to increased nest predation by crows and magpies
  • It is therefore far more likely that cats have an even greater impact on songbird populations than sparrowhawks
  • The prevailing line that "there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats is having any impact on bird populations in UK" is simply no longer tenable.

Further, what do you think is part of habitat loss? Loss of food, or ability to hunt food. As for pet cats, it's erroneous to assume that by virtue of being pets they're incapable of killing other animals.



I posted this video earlier. Being a pet doesn't mean it's less dangerous. Pets are free to come back and hunt at their liesure.
 
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NekoFever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,009
I've just seen "outside only" is an option on the poll. I had no idea that was a thing. All the cat owners I've known have had outside cats for generations with no issues but that's been "outside when you want but mostly inside". No idea why someone would lock their cat outside and remove access to the house. That's mean
It's more a thing in rural areas where they have farm cats, i.e. borderline feral cats that live on the farm and live off the pests that they kill. They're not even really pets. There were a couple on my uncle's farm growing up, and the only human interaction was a trip to the vet when they were visibly sick or injured, and maybe some food and warmth during lean winters. They were chilled out and friendly enough, though.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,900
Depends on the outdoor available.

I currently live in a city center, so even if i have a small garden, they don't go outside unless i'm with them to make sure they don't escape said garden.

But cats go outside freely at my parents house because there's no predators around, few neighbors and barely any car traffic.


You adapt to the situation, if it's safe for them to go outside, you can let them, if not : keep them inside.
 
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ɣGammaɣ

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,013
the middle of the woods
Predators are rarely the main/super factor for a vanishing species. And this video from a university, ugh, is total bullshit, its only true if there is unlimited prey and the hunting success rate stays the same, also if the territory gets bigger - time to search gets bigger and so success declines. You can't just simply but this data in correlation.

The Nr 1 factor for vanishing species is Agriculture.

Edit: Also not taken in consideration, migration, behaviour adaption, reproduction adaption.
 
Last edited:

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
To drive home the argument against the RSPB, here's conclusions drawn from elsewhere.

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.10073

Domestic cats and their impacts on biodiversity: A blind spot in the application of nature conservation law

Arie Trouwborst,Phillipa C. McCormack,Elvira Martínez Camacho
First published: 04 February 2020
https://doi.org/10.1002/pan3.10073
Citations: 9

Abstract

  1. Free-ranging domestic cats Felis catus, from owned pets to feral cats, impact biodiversity through predation, fear effects, competition, disease and hybridization. Scientific knowledge regarding these impacts has recently increased, making it timely to assess the role of nature conservation legislation in this connection. We do so with particular regard to the obligations of governments around the world under international wildlife law.
  2. First, we provide an overview of current knowledge, based on a literature review, concerning the ways in which domestic cats impact wildlife; the resulting effects on native species' populations and ecosystems; and available strategies for addressing these issues. In light of this knowledge, using standard legal research methodology, we then identify and interpret relevant legal instruments, with a particular focus on international wildlife treaties. Lastly, we identify and assess factors that may influence the implementation of relevant obligations.
  3. The outcomes of this analysis indicate that numerous legal obligations of relevance to free-ranging domestic cats already apply under global treaties such as the Convention on Biological Diversity, Convention on Migratory Species and World Heritage Convention, and a range of regional legal instruments for biodiversity conservation. Of particular significance are obligations concerning (a) invasive alien species; (b) protected areas and (c) protected species.
  4. Many national authorities around the world are currently required, under international law, to adopt and implement policies aimed at preventing, reducing or eliminating the biodiversity impacts of free-ranging domestic cats, in particular by (a) removing feral and other unowned cats from the landscape to the greatest extent possible and (b) restricting the outdoor access of owned cats.
  5. Factors that can influence or impair the application of these obligations include considerations of feasibility, scientific uncertainty, the interests of cat owners and the (perceived) interests of domestic cats themselves. Even if such factors may to some extent explain why many authorities have hitherto failed to take effective action to address the threats posed by free-ranging domestic cats, from a legal perspective these factors provide little ground for justifying non-compliance with international wildlife law.

Introduction

Around the world, domestic cats Felis catus—from free-ranging pets to feral cats—impact wildlife in various ways, and to various degrees. Impacts include predation, competition, disturbance, disease transmission and hybridization (see Section 2.1 below). Much legislation exists, at national and international levels, aimed at the conservation and restoration of wildlife and biodiversity. The application of these nature conservation laws to domestic cats and their impacts is the focus of this paper. The paper emphasizes the obligations of governmental authorities and the actions imposed by existing international law with regard to domestic cats. This analysis is timely because scientific evidence has grown rapidly over the past 15 years and now clearly documents cats' large-scale negative impacts on wildlife (see Section 2.2 below). Notwithstanding this growing awareness of their negative impact on wildlife, domestic cats continue to inhabit a place that is, at best, on the periphery of international wildlife law. No doubt, there are political, sociological and psychological explanations for this regulatory oversight but the implications for wildlife conservation are profound. This article speaks directly to this legal 'blind spot', highlighting the urgent need for a more consistent and focused application of international wildlife laws to this issue.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7417221/

Investigating cat predation as the cause of bat wing tears using forensic DNA analysis

Rana O. S. Khayat, Robyn A. Grant, [...], and Kirsty J. Shaw

Abstract

Cat predation upon bat species has been reported to have significant effects on bat populations in both rural and urban areas. The majority of research in this area has focussed on observational data from bat rehabilitators documenting injuries, and cat owners, when domestic cats present prey. However, this has the potential to underestimate the number of bats killed or injured by cats. Here, we use forensic DNA analysis techniques to analyze swabs taken from injured bats in the United Kingdom, mainly including Pipistrellus pipistrellus (40 out of 72 specimens). Using quantitative PCR, cat DNA was found in two‐thirds of samples submitted by bat rehabilitators. Of these samples, short tandem repeat analysis produced partial DNA profiles for approximately one‐third of samples, which could be used to link predation events to individual cats. The use of genetic analysis can complement observational data and potentially provide additional information to give a more accurate estimation of cat predation.

Abstract

Forensic DNA analysis techniques were used to analyze swabs taken from injured bats in the United Kingdom. Cat DNA was found to be present in two‐thirds of samples, and of these samples, short tandem repeat analysis produced partial DNA profiles for approximately one‐third of samples, which could be used to link predation events to individual cats. The use of genetic analysis can complement observational data and potentially provide additional information to give a more accurate estimation of cat predation.

This rapid environmental change can also produce ecological traps, that is, scenarios where the bats will settle in poor‐quality habitats or maintain roost fidelity despite alterations to the environment. For example, high mortality rates of common noctule bats (Nyctalus noctula) were observed in one concrete building in Kharkiv City, Ukraine, with cat predation reported as the most common cause (157 out of 231 deaths), compared to starvation, dehydration, chemical contamination or being killed by humans (Vlaschenko, Kovalov, Hukov, Kravchenko, & Rodenko, 2019).

The presence of predators in urban areas, such as domestic cats (Felis catus), can strongly influence roost selection by bats and can even cause them to abandon roosts altogether (Welch & Leppanen, 2017). It has been hypothesized that the cats are attracted to the bat roosts by sensory cues, including sound, smell, and vision (Ancillotto, Serangeli, & Russo, 2013). The hunting strategy of feral cats has been observed using infrared cameras in the Culebrones Cave in Puerto Rico, which is home to ~300,000 individual bats. It showed that cats hunted either by sitting on their hind legs and catching bats in the air with a swift movement of their paws, or by jumping and catching bats in mid‐air (Rodríguez‐Durán, Pérez, Montalbán, & Sandoval, 2010), resulting in either death or injury to the bat.

DISCUSSION

4.1. Presence of cat DNA
Two‐thirds (48 out of 72) of the bat wing swab samples obtained showed the presence of cat DNA, a value higher than many previous reports based only on observational data, which suggests that cat predation can be more common than has been previously reported.

(...)

It is hypothesized that while qPCR is a very sensitive technique for the detection of cat DNA, this value of two‐thirds of bats being predated upon by cats could still be an underestimation, due to factors such as (a) bats not always being brought to the attention of rehabilitators; (b) bats not having visible wing tears or having sustained injuries to the torso which are sometimes not apparent (e.g., hidden under fur) when first admitted into care; (c) insufficient DNA quantity transferred from cat to bat during the predation event; and (d) potential variability in the swabbing technique and sample storage by participating bat rehabilitators.

Impact of cat predation

Free‐roaming domestic cats cause a significant number of bird and mammal fatalities and, with the number of cats increasing annually (Woods et al., 2003), the effect of cat predation on wildlife is likely to rise. Therefore, the number of injured bats from cat attacks will likely increase in the future. Previous research which has examined cat predation on wildlife, especially mammals and birds, has led to recommendations to reduce predation, and these are also pertinent for reducing bat predation. Recommendations include the following: (a) being mindful when making residential developments in close proximity to protected species habitats (Phillips et al., 2001); (b) night‐time curfews for domestic cats (Barratt, 1997); and (c) use of bells (Ancillotto et al., 2013) or novel cat collars such as Birdsbesafe®​, which have been shown to be effective in reducing bird predation (Willson, Okunlola, & Novak, 2015).

As well as causing wing tears, cat attacks can also lead to bacterial diseases in bats (Mühldorfer, Speck, & Wibbelt, 2011), which can be transmitted to bats from cat saliva (Mühldorfer, Speck, Kurth, et al., 2011). Cat claws carry bacteria which is also likely to transfer to the bat upon contact, in a similar manner to cat‐scratch disease that can be acquired by humans upon injury (Christina, Shubhayu, & Paul, 2016; Kirkpatrick & Glickman, 1989). Cats may also receive a viral infection from the bats, such as Nipah virus (NiV) and European bat lyssaviruses (EBLVs), which could lead to cat mortality (Dacheux et al., 2009; Epstein et al., 2006). Therefore, investigating the interactions of cats and bats can have important implications for both species.



https://nerc.ukri.org/planetearth/stories/1337/


Cat survey reveals impact on birds

Some pet cats are killing a lot of birds around the UK, a new study shows. Most don't do much harm, but millions of marauding felines add up to what could be a serious problem for the nation's wildlife.

Domestic cat


The study's authors say owners could do more to stop their pets scoffing increasingly-threatened bird populations. Sadly they don't seem keen to do so; conservationists have more work to do engaging with pet lovers and persuading them to take action.

Scientists have long suspected cats are partly to blame for the decline of many British wild birds, but until now they've had little hard evidence. The animals' popularity as pets means they're kept at very high densities in many towns and cities - much higher than they'd reach in the wild. Birds living in these urban areas face a relentless threat.

Dr Rebecca Thomas wrote the recent paper in PLoS ONE based on the results of her doctoral research at the University of Reading. She surveyed cat owners around town to find out how many prey their pets brought home, as well as what they thought about this predatory activity and whether they were prepared to do anything about it.

One finding is that cats' hunting prowess varies greatly. Only 20 per cent brought back four or more dead animals a year; 22 per cent of owners had to manage with no prey gifts at all throughout the entire multi-year length of the study. It turns out that a relatively small minority of felines is responsible for most of the havoc. They bump the average up to an estimated 18·3 kills per cat per year. Previous studies suggest cats bring home around one in three things they kill, letting scientists estimate overall kill numbers from data on prey returns.

It turns out that people's understanding of the problem is variable, and willingness to consider steps to solve it is limited. 46 per cent of non-cat-owners think cats are a nuisance, compared to a surprisingly high 19 per cent of cat-owners. Owners in particular are often not aware of the conservation issues; 16 per cent reckon cats have no effect on local bird populations and another 51 per cent only a small effect.

(...)

Controlling the problem will probably involve voluntary agreements and negotiation with cat-owners, Thomas says, since there's little political possibility of sweeping reforms from central government, such as nationwide compulsory cat-registration. Another smart and potentially palatable move would be to encourage cat owners to keep their cats inside at dawn and dusk, the times at which birds are most vulnerable. Thomas adds that as well as trying to keep cats under control, people can also help improve urban biodiversity directly by creating wildlife-friendly gardens and feeding birds.



https://www.nationalgeographic.co.u...ere-killed-by-house-cats-in-just-one-year/amp

Figures released by the Mammal Society show the UK's estimates for domestic cat kills to be more sober, but still shocking: around 100 million prey items between Spring and Summer, of which 27 million were birds – and not counting the creatures the cats didn't bring home.

(...)

The problem with outdoor cats
Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of vertebrates, most of them birds, says Peter Marra, director of the Georgetown Environment Initiative. "The fact that they've caused these extinctions is bad enough…. [Additionally] we know that they have a significant impact on populations globally, whether they're threatened or not," he says.
Marra, who was formerly the director of the Smithsonian's Migratory Bird Center, is the author of Cat Wars: The Devastating Consequences of a Cuddly Killer, which details why cats can be dangerous to species diversity. Since the book's release in 2016, not much has changed regarding outdoor cat regulation, Marra says, but there is a greater awareness and understanding of the issue.
Some argue that cats are natural predators and should be allowed to roam and kill prey as they please. But, according to Piazza, the fight is not fair. This argument overlooks several important factors.
In a natural predator-prey relationship, predators hunt until there isn't enough prey in the population to feed them, she explains. As the predator population dwindles, the prey population has time to repopulate. Domesticated cats disrupt the cycle.

"They're in the same area for 15 to 20 years, they're fed by their humans, they don't have to hunt to survive," Piazza says. "They just constantly kill and nothing changes their population, so it doesn't give local wild populations time to rebound as they would if it was a natural predator-prey cycle."



Predators are rarely the main/super factor for a vanishing species. And this video from a university, ugh, is total bullshit, its only true if there is unlimited prey and the hunting success rate stays the same, also if the territory gets bigger - time to search gets bigger and so success declines. You can't just simply but this data in correlation.

The Nr 1 factor for vanishing species is Agriculture.

Edit: Also not taken in consideration, migration, behaviour adaption, reproduction adaption.
Then let's see the supporting evidence.

Said 'ugh' study documented their work and didn't just make baseless claims.

https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acv.12563

The small home ranges and large local ecological impacts of pet cats

R. Kays,R. R. Dunn,A. W. Parsons,B. Mcdonald,T. Perkins,S. A. Powers,L. Shell,J. L. McDonald,H. Cole,H. Kikillus,L. Woods,H. Tindle,P. Roetman
First published: 11 March 2020
https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563
Citations: 2
Editor: Julie Young
Associate Editor: Thomas Tscheulin

Domestic cats (Felis catus) are a conservation concern because they kill billions of native prey each year, but without spatial context the ecological importance of pets as predators remains uncertain. We worked with citizen scientists to track 925 pet cats from six countries, finding remarkably small home ranges (3.6 ± 5.6 ha). Only three cats ranged > 1 km2​ and we found no relationship between home range size and the presence of larger native predators (i.e. coyotes, Canis latrans). Most (75%) cats used primarily (90%) disturbed habitats. Owners reported that their pets killed an average of 3.5 prey items/month, leading to an estimated ecological impact per cat of 14.2-38.9 prey ha−1​ yr−1​. This is similar or higher than the per-animal ecological impact of wild carnivores but the effect is amplified by the high density of cats in neighborhoods. As a result, pet cats around the world have an ecological impact greater than native predators but concentrated within ~100 m of their homes.

If you're going to discredit them, put effort into it beyond rolling eyes.
 
Last edited:

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_kill_more_prey_than_cats_from_the_suburbs

Pet cats (Felis catus) from urban boundaries use different habitats, have larger home ranges and kill more prey than cats from the suburbs

References (51)
Figures (5)

Abstract and Figures

The domestic cat (Felis catus) is a predator of global significance. In Great Britain there are ca. 9.5 million owned pet cats, with their population determined by human population density. As urban areas expand and encroach on areas of conservation value, it is not known how cats use these areas and how habitat availability influences predation rates. To address this, over a year we recorded the movement and prey of 79 owned cats in inner suburban areas (non-boundary cats) and in areas adjacent to natural habitats on the edge of the suburban area (boundary cats). Boundary cats had larger home ranges (mean 3.42 S.E. ± 0.61 ha) and returned more prey (mean 7.91 S.E. ± 2.70 prey cat⁻¹year⁻¹) than cats in non-boundary areas (2.01 S.E. ± 0.70 ha; 3.35 S.E. ± 1.06 prey cat⁻¹year⁻¹respectively). Assuming a prey return rate of 23%, extrapolated predation rates equate to 34.40 (S.E. ± 11.74) and 14.57 (S.E. ± 4.62) prey cat⁻¹year⁻¹ in our boundary and suburban study sites respectively. While non-boundary cats had little access to natural habitats, natural habitats made up > 25% of the home range of boundary cats. Boundary cats travelled a mean distance of 64.9 m (S.E. ± 6.8) into these natural habitats, with some cats ranging > 300 m inside these areas. Bird predation rates did not differ between boundary and non-boundary cats, but boundary cats killed three times more mammals. This is of relevance to urban planning, as the hunting behaviour of pet cats extends the ecological effects of urbanisation into surrounding habitats.

In Britain, estimates from a single study suggests 92 million prey over five (spring and summer) months (Woods, McDonald, & Harris, 2003). Predation estimates are largely based upon cats returning prey to their homes, but prey returns alone may not show a complete picture. Video data suggests that only 23% of the total prey caught is returned (USA, Loyd, Hernandez, Carroll, Abernathy, & Marshall, 2013) and scat analysis shows a difference in species that are consumed rather than returned (Poland, Krauze-Gryz, Gryz, & Goszczy´nski, 2012). Neverthe-less, UK studies agree that rodents are the main prey taxon of cats
(mainly wood mice Apodemus sylvaticus), followed by small urban birds (house sparrow Passer domesticus, blackbird Turdus merula, great tit
Parus major, robin Erithacus rubecula, and dunnock Prunella modularis; Churcher & Lawton, 1987; Woods et al., 2003; Baker, Bentley, Ansell, &
Harris, 2005; Thomas, Fellowes, & Baker, 2012).

From all of the data I'm finding, the trend is that cats are likely more predatory than is let on by observation, not less, and that pet cats can and do kill wildlife. Meanwhile, the RSPB is the only major organization I've seen that tries to claim the contrary, and even then they basically skirt the issue by relying on a lack of evidence. Well, it seems that said evidence is mounting.
 
Last edited:

ɣGammaɣ

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,013
the middle of the woods
To drive home the argument against the RSPB, here's conclusions drawn from elsewhere.

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.10073

Domestic cats and their impacts on biodiversity: A blind spot in the application of nature conservation law

Arie Trouwborst,Phillipa C. McCormack,Elvira Martínez Camacho
First published: 04 February 2020
https://doi.org/10.1002/pan3.10073
Citations: 9







https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7417221/

Investigating cat predation as the cause of bat wing tears using forensic DNA analysis

Rana O. S. Khayat, Robyn A. Grant, [...], and Kirsty J. Shaw











https://nerc.ukri.org/planetearth/stories/1337/


Cat survey reveals impact on birds









https://www.nationalgeographic.co.u...ere-killed-by-house-cats-in-just-one-year/amp






Then let's see the supporting evidence.

Said 'ugh' study documented their work and didn't just make baseless claims.

https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acv.12563

The small home ranges and large local ecological impacts of pet cats

R. Kays,R. R. Dunn,A. W. Parsons,B. Mcdonald,T. Perkins,S. A. Powers,L. Shell,J. L. McDonald,H. Cole,H. Kikillus,L. Woods,H. Tindle,P. Roetman
First published: 11 March 2020
https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563
Citations: 2
Editor: Julie Young
Associate Editor: Thomas Tscheulin



If you're going to discredit them, put effort into it beyond rolling eyes.

Had a quick read, don't know exactly what you are trying to proof. Yes cats have an impact on biodiversity, not arguing against it.

Question is, is it the main factor? Does it qualify to restrict cats?
How many of the prey survives?

If I would take this approach to wildlife management and lets say I have a population of 100 X (prey) and Y (predator). Predator kills 10. Change in habitat (bad weather, sickness, food supply) is responsible for 15. Would you say its reasonable to restrict or kill the predator?

Video was a simplification and I argued against it, explained why, that's all.
 

Ishmael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
683
There are raccoons, foxes, and coyotes in my neighborhood, not to mention a very busy road. I'm not about to let my boob of a cat out for an evening stroll.
 

Pancho

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
1,979
Indoor. I got a cat a month ago. Theres too many feral cats where I live, agressive too. My cat is around 6 months old and would probably get destroyed by the other cats or run over (since its black)
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,545
It's more a thing in rural areas where they have farm cats, i.e. borderline feral cats that live on the farm and live off the pests that they kill. They're not even really pets. There were a couple on my uncle's farm growing up, and the only human interaction was a trip to the vet when they were visibly sick or injured, and maybe some food and warmth during lean winters. They were chilled out and friendly enough, though.

Yeah, makes sense. I meant if you live in a regular house and keep them as a pet but don't let them in, that would he super mean. A farm is completely different, that's heaven for a cat. There's probably plenty of shelter around in terms of barns etc too. My bad for overlooking it
 

Nakho

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,322
The bad faith posting by some outdoors cat owners is out of control. I would quote the "best" ones but I'm on mobile rn and can't really be arsed.

I'll just say: ask your local rescue group what they prefer. I'll wait.
 

Deleted member 49611

Nov 14, 2018
5,052
i had 3 cats and they were strictly indoor cats. people said it's cruel to keep them inside but it straight up wouldn't be safe to let my cats outside. my old house had a busy road at the back and three busy roads out front. in all my 30 years of living there i never saw a cat outside. most people who stayed there kept their cats indoors cause it just wasn't safe.

i got another 2 cats and when i moved house i let them out in the back garden. they love playing out there. i will even open the gate to let them go out to the street which is super quiet. they spend a lot of time hiding under cars keeping a watch on pidgeons and magpies. i'm trying to let them get used to being outside and become familiar with the area. maybe in summer i'll let them wander alone. one of my cats doesn't really like to go far. at most she'll sit under a car but she's quite timid/scared so runs back inside if she sees anyone. the other cat is bold and brave so she'll probably go roaming around. while there is a busy road it's on the other side of the houses across from us and anyway i think there is a lot of other places they can go that are quiet. there's lots of open areas and wooded areas. so it's a lot safer for them. again i'm just trying to get them used to being outside before letting them go unsupervised lol.
 

kidnemo

Member
Dec 11, 2017
1,188
The bad faith posting by some outdoors cat owners is out of control. I would quote the "best" ones but I'm on mobile rn and can't really be arsed.

I'll just say: ask your local rescue group what they prefer. I'll wait.

Hah - this is pretty much where I'm at. Folks are posting up some great data refuting their points and the replies are laughable.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_kill_more_prey_than_cats_from_the_suburbs

Pet cats (Felis catus) from urban boundaries use different habitats, have larger home ranges and kill more prey than cats from the suburbs





From all of the data I'm finding, the trend is that cats are likely more predatory than is let on by observation, not less, and that pet cats can and do kill wildlife. Meanwhile, the RSPB is the only major organization I've seen that tries to claim the contrary, and even then they basically skirt the issue by relying on a lack of evidence. Well, it seems that said evidence is mounting.

I appreciate all the work you are putting into your replies here. You seem like a good person!
 

unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,274
Athens, Greece
I'll say one thing then I'm putting the thread on ignore, I just don't have the energy for this.

- Different parts of the world have different ways of doing this.
- Some of the studies people site against cats being allowed out are very biased.
- Humans roam, and their impact is worse than cats
- I grantee many of the people saying they should be kept inside due to "environmental impact" are being massive hypocrites by eating a lot of meat, driving a car all the time, using a lot of plastics, creating excessive waste etc...

Yes, there are benefits to keeping cats inside, but some feel the risks are worth a cat having a more free existence.

The crux of it is this: don't try to tell others their way is wrong, accept that some places do it differently, and check yourself before you lecture others and tell them they have to do it the way you would.

To note: I've had a lot of cats in my life, they all lived beyond 10, they all were extremely well love and cared for. Vaccinated, neutered, well fed, and allowed to roam happily. I would never change that. Animals should be free, not caged.
My cats live indoor only for several reasons - mainly big city, 4th floor apartment - but well said this is the correct approach.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Had a quick read, don't know exactly what you are trying to proof. Yes cats have an impact on biodiversity, not arguing against it.

Question is, is it the main factor? Does it qualify to restrict cats?
How many of the prey survives?

I don't personally feel that biodiversity impact is something where we can ignore any facet of.
If there is any improvement we can make through very very minor acts like keeping your cat indoors, we have a moral obligation not to throw up our hands and say "well it's not the MOST important impact". Everything counts. If human activity caused the issue we have a responsibility to fix it. And it's not like it's difficult to just keep your cat indoors.
 

obin_gam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,062
Sollefteå, Sweden
Our two brothers Roffe and The Frog have spent all their 7 years alive going in and out from home. They have from when they were kittens basically and they come when we call them as well. We live in the centre of downtown as well so they have cars all over the place to manage.



Roffe even follows me halfway to the gym! :D

Here's for example Roffe at the city damm, when I met him on my way to work, minding his territory and his own business
 
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Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
On the one hand, the outdoor cats had the best songs - Skimbleshanks the Railway Cat and Grizabella the Glamour Cat. But on the other hand, Grizabella died outdoors before her time when she tried (and succeeded) to get into the atmosphere and reach the Heaviside Layer, so being an outdoor cat did lower her lifespan.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,747
Growing up, had only outdoor cats. All three lived really long lives and one died at nearly 17 - he asked to come in for the first time since he was a kitten and died on my dad's lap. Such a sweet, but powerful, cat.

Nowadays, all about indoor with outdoor supervision via harness, catio, or just being with them outdoors if they're not the bolting type.
 

blacklotus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,035
Mine are indoor only.
If I ever move out from an apartment to a house with a garden I'll make a Catio for sure.
The risk of death is way too big for outdoor cats.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,600
My cat is too punk to hunt anything outside. He's fought a fox before but she got away clean. If he wants to go out I let her out
 

Zutrax

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,213
I have a friend who just had to deal with the traumatic experience of someones outdoor cat being violently killed by another wild animal in his back yard. He had to verify it had a collar, call the owners, and juggle all of these emotional and social responsibilities just because someone let their cat wander around outside.

On top of the ecological impact cats pose toward wildlife when you let them wander, there's also stuff like this that can occur. Please keep your cats indoors.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,748
So my dog goes for outdoor cats (he's a wolfhound X, the likes chasing squirrels as well) and it's a pain in the ass when outdoor cats just roam around because if he sees them before I do, he really goes for them and my shoulders get a work out.

I'm trying to train him out of if but so much is just instinctual that it may be a fruitless endeavor. But if he sees a cat lounging around a corner outside on a normal walk and gets it is he at fault? Hell at least I'm trying with him being on a lead, but I imagine the owner would be very upset and want my dog put down for being "aggressive". He has never hurt another dog or human and loves both.

In my old house, my neighbor had a big backyard where his Rottweiler lived, the amount of cats went into that yard only to get injured or killed by that dog was crazy,you would think that eventually they would stop coming but it was useless, poor dude had to deal with calling the number some of those cats had in their collar and dealing with the distraught owner afterwards.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,448
"It's inhumane to keep your cat indoors" just leads to larger questions about the humane-ness of having a pet at all. Like, yeah, you prevent an animal from doing the things it wants to do, because you own it and you're (theoretically) acting in its best interests. That's why you don't let it eat garbage, or constantly fuck around and reproduce, and make it take medicine it hates and get clean in a way it hates.

The whole concept of owning a pet is forcing it to live a controlled, domestic, "unnatural" life, because in theory both the pet and the owner benefit from it. They're not always gonna like it. That's the tradeoff. Any line drawn needs to be data-driven in the best interest of owners, pets, and the environment around them, not based on how it makes you feel.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,717
United States
I've never seen a stray cat. I have fantasized of adopting and socializing a stray cat for years. We ended up just adopting one who'd been rescued from a dangerous living condition. Our cat is indoor only but I would like to see if they'd enjoy going outside with me on a leash in the spring.

TikTok has made me aware that there are plenty of places where feral cats are all over the place. There will be entire colonies of stray cats. People will be walking home from work and have cats follow them home. People at work will take the trash out at night and have a crowd of cats waiting for them. I have lived in New England (both rural and urban, though I am urban now) all my life and packs of wild, feral cats aren't just something I've ever contended with. I've never seen seen a stray. It took us quite a long time to even find a suitable cat to adopt and kittens were just off the table entirely. So where I live cats are not a concern at all, which I imagine is true for lots of other Americans.

But then I see these videos of other places, even in America, where cats dominate neighborhoods in hoards. What a spectacle.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,717
United States
The whole concept of owning a pet is forcing it to live a controlled, domestic, "unnatural" life, because in theory both the pet and the owner benefit from it. They're not always gonna like it. That's the tradeoff. Any line drawn needs to be data-driven in the best interest of owners, pets, and the environment around them, not based on how it makes you feel.
I used to think cats would be unhappy staying indoors until it occurred to me that I, too, live in a house and quite like it. My cat watches TV, how unhappy can it be?
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I think it depends on where you are and on the cat, I don't see an issue with an outdoor / indoor cat in small towns or if you are in the country but here in the city our cats are indoor.
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,341
Note for folks who let their cats roam (which my family did when i was young): conservationalists are urging not to do this anymore as they are an important contributor to declining bird populations in the world, which is an evolving problem. They're amazingly efficient killers.

www.npr.org

The Killer At Home: House Cats Have More Impact On Local Wildlife Than Wild Predators

They may look cute and fluffy, and they don't go far, but cats are deadly stalkers who rule concentrated areas of their neighborhoods.
 

PinkSpider

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,992
I've never seen a stray cat. I have fantasized of adopting and socializing a stray cat for years. We ended up just adopting one who'd been rescued from a dangerous living condition. Our cat is indoor only but I would like to see if they'd enjoy going outside with me on a leash in the spring.

TikTok has made me aware that there are plenty of places where feral cats are all over the place. There will be entire colonies of stray cats. People will be walking home from work and have cats follow them home. People at work will take the trash out at night and have a crowd of cats waiting for them. I have lived in New England (both rural and urban, though I am urban now) all my life and packs of wild, feral cats aren't just something I've ever contended with. I've never seen seen a stray. It took us quite a long time to even find a suitable cat to adopt and kittens were just off the table entirely. So where I live cats are not a concern at all, which I imagine is true for lots of other Americans.

But then I see these videos of other places, even in America, where cats dominate neighborhoods in hoards. What a spectacle.
Took in a couple of strays. The last was a couple of years ago; was hanging outside for ages. Fed him now and then, eventually it was snowing heavily and he was reluctant but managed to trap him in my house. Lived in my bedroom for 6 months, lots of shitting on the floor; eventually came out and would run between outside for a bit to go to the toilet and then run back straight to my room. After a year was a normal house cat, little shit used to stink and sit on my mousepad (Was cute so couldn't say no). Eventually died fairly early as the vet said strays don't live past their early teens normally (Was around 12, died of kidney failure).

Big cat area but we don't get too many around here, last place we had one which would come for food and once or twice let us stroke her but was stupidly timid and would run away if you gave her attention outside of food. She was old and I presume died as one day stopped turning up for a daily pouch of food.

I seemingly like taking in fucked up cats; my current cat we didn't steal so much but was taken from a neighbour who got him as a kitten then didn't want him when he got older. Had him around 14 now and I think he may be immortal (I give him till 18 - 20 so a couple more years) and the cat I had before was a fat git no one wanted from the RSPCA, easiest cat ever.
 

HowieZowie

Alt-Account
Banned
Dec 21, 2021
47
We have 5 cats.
Sabine I got from a shelter and she has always preferred outside unless its raining or cold
Trizzle and Drizzle both love outdoors, but come and go as they please
Lilly is the one cat that is outside the most. She comes and goes as she pleases (She is the momma to Trizzle and Drizzle)
Blaster likes it inside and only goes outside to use the bathroom and lay on the porch. (He is the daddy to Trizzle and Drizzle)

We live in a small town and while I prefer they stay inside, the litter box cleaning is easier and its just plain hard to keep them from going out. Now if a storm or cold snap hits... they are all bunched up in the house.
 

Slacker247

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,066
In my opinion, ideally a mix, where supervision is basically walking your cat on a leash. Cities are hectic, busy, lots of other cats around, it'd worry my cat would get hurt.

My neighbour has a cat they barely let indoors. It sucks so bad when I see it and I worry about it nearly every day because he's not been neutered, had a massive bloody gash a few days ago, and now it's been days since I last saw it. Such a friendly cat but it has fits of spraying, gets into more fights, and is just neglected for the most part.
 

everdom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
527
In my old house, my neighbor had a big backyard where his Rottweiler lived, the amount of cats went into that yard only to get injured or killed by that dog was crazy,you would think that eventually they would stop coming but it was useless, poor dude had to deal with calling the number some of those cats had in their collar and dealing with the distraught owner afterwards.
That would be terrible, I can't imagine having to call multiple owners who would no doubt make the rottie owner (who sounds like he was being responsible as he possibly could) feel like shit.

I know how many animals and people my dog has injured/killed (it's zero on both fronts btw). There is no way the owner of outdoor cats can say the same. That's what gets me worked up.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,331
Outdoors. They are happy to roam, make friends, sometimes enemies and to go on adventures. Yes, they'll get hurt sometimes, but that's part of life. I never subscribed to "cats are happier indoors", seeing how we don't lock ourselves in either. A human that never knew freedom wouldn't question it either. Of course cats kill other animals, that is part of their nature. If I get a cat, though, I won't deny them being true to themselves. Same reason I will never get a bird just to put it in a cage. I would think myself cruel and selfish. It's not a zero sum game no matter the decision, and it's us humans bringing animals into our homes, not them themselves. So why punish them?

My neighbors 3 indoor/outdoor cats are dead because they all got hit by cars. Meanwhile, my 3 indoor cats are still alive. Which cats do you think are happier? Oh and none of their 3 cats died quickly, they all suffered.

They now have indoor cats only.
 

Spacejaws

"This guy are sick" of the One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,936
Scotland
My cat was indoors only but after a year she started really crying to explore outside. She only goes out for an hour or so at a time and doesn't range far and I know if I go out and shake some biscuits she'll come running. Growing up I had a grizzled ginger tom that was an outside cat 90% of the time by his own choice and he lived to a crazy old age.
 

viral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,686
My neighbors 3 indoor/outdoor cats are dead because they all got hit by cars. Meanwhile, my 3 indoor cats are still alive. Which cats do you think are happier? Oh and none of their 3 cats died quickly, they all suffered.

They now have indoor cats only.

At least they lived a life without being in captivity.