Deleted member 93062

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NACS seems far superior to CCS and Tesla dominates the charging network infrastructure in the US so this makes sense and should help with EV adoption in the US.
arenaev_002.jpg

www.cnbc.com

GM to use Tesla charging network, joining Ford in leveraging the EV leader's tech

GM, like Ford, will begin installing a charging port used by Tesla, known as NACS, instead of the current industry-standard CCS in its EVs starting in 2025.
 

B'z-chan

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Oct 27, 2017
1,157
I'm not a fan of Tesla manipulating the market the way they have. The motivation here is not one of market adoption but market manipulation.
 
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Deleted member 93062

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I'm not a fan of Tesla manipulating the market the way they have. The motivation here is not one of market adoption but market manipulation.
How so? I believe Tesla is pushing NACS to get funding from the government, no doubt there, but realistically the most reliable and widely available charging network is Tesla's. It makes sense why GM and Ford would just want to use that instead of pushing against the grain. As a consumer it'd also make me more interested in non-Tesla EVs since the biggest benefit Teslas have historically had over other EVs is the charging network.
 

Wrexis

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Nov 4, 2017
21,912
Wait, up until six months ago this was Tesla's proprietary connector, and they rebranded it to a "Standard" lol?

Wonder how this will go down in Europe...I have my eyes on a Ford Puma 2024.
 
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Wait, up until six months ago this was Tesla's proprietary connector, and they rebranded it to a "Standard" lol?

Wonder how this will go down in Europe...I have my eyes on a Ford Puma 2024.
Yeah, in order to receive government funding for charging stations I believe it needs to be a standard that multiple manufacturers use.

In Europe, I believe CCS is required by law. The US is the wild west but Tesla is pushing their cable as the "North American Charging Standard":
 

thaivo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
624
People that are negative on this news don't have an EV. Tesla's network and its connector is just miles better than CCS... This will spur all other charging networks to also adopt NACS. It's over in America at this point, and thank goodness for that. This is only good for the EV industry and consumers.
 

B'z-chan

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Oct 27, 2017
1,157
How so? I believe Tesla is pushing NACS to get funding from the government, no doubt there, but realistically the most reliable and widely available charging network is Tesla's. It makes sense why GM and Ford would just want to use that instead of pushing against the grain. As a consumer it'd also make me more interested in non-Tesla EVs since the biggest benefit Teslas have historically had over other EVs is the charging network.

The government funding is the reason I'm not a fan of what they are doing. Musk and people like him rob us and only benefit themselves. If we had real regulations and a plan to standardize like how the EU did it'd be a different story. Instead we basically are gonna give a majority of the funding to a company like Tesla who uses government subsidies heavily to support and pay for itself.
 

Charcoal

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Nov 2, 2017
7,793
People that are negative on this news don't have an EV. Tesla's network and its connector is just miles better than CCS... This will spur all other charging networks to also adopt NACS. It's over in America at this point, and thank goodness for that. This is only good for the EV industry and consumers.
The perfect post
 
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Deleted member 93062

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People that are negative on this news don't have an EV. Tesla's network and its connector is just miles better than CCS... This will spur all other charging networks to also adopt NACS. It's over in America at this point, and thank goodness for that. This is only good for the EV industry and consumers.
Yeah. I understand the hesitation towards everyone jumping on Tesla's standard but if this means all manufacturers will switch to NACS in the US and every EV can use the supercharger network with tight integration into every car. It's better for everyone.
 
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The government funding is the reason I'm not a fan of what they are doing. Musk and people like him rob us and only benefit themselves. If we had real regulations and a plan to standardize like how the EU did it'd be a different story. Instead we basically are gonna give a majority of the funding to a company like Tesla who uses government subsidies heavily to support and pay for itself.
Is there any evidence that Tesla won't use the government subsidies for their intended purpose (to build charging stations)? As long as they do that, who cares?
 

B'z-chan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,157
Is there any evidence that Tesla won't use the government subsidies for their intended purpose (to build charging stations)? As long as they do that, who cares?
It creates a monopoly instantly, how can you not see that being an issue?

When you fueled up your car did you only go to one gas station?
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
The NACS plug is way better so this is great. Also, more Tesla Supercharger stations everywhere would be great
 

thaivo

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Nov 2, 2017
624
Yeah. I understand the hesitation towards everyone jumping on Tesla's standard but if this means all manufacturers will switch to NACS in the US and every EV can use the supercharger network with tight integration into every car. It's better for everyone.
Tesla will certainly have the largest network, and it will grow almost exponentially from here (because of Federal incentives), but there will be other charging providers. Hell, I think Ford will continue building its network as well, and if I can use my Tesla there, then that is a great result. I love it!


Thanks man. Edgy and cynical are not in my nature. :)
 

gundalf

Member
May 6, 2022
546
...
Wonder how this will go down in Europe...I have my eyes on a Ford Puma 2024.

Other people already gave a response but I will just add that Type2 AC are the primary chargers in urban areas and home charging and CCS basically adds two fat prongs for DC charging. In a nutshell, it is for Europe already too late to go away from CCS, that train has departed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,791
What makes the NACS better than CCS as a connector? Not the charging network.

What really should happen is that there needs to be regulation that all charging stations use the same standard connector. One without royalties as well, if NACS is the better connector I am all for regulation being passed for all charging station to use it.
 

MrPoppins

Member
Oct 27, 2017
938
Silicon Valley - CA
Cool that connector may finally start standardizing because of this as I am told Tesla's is the best, but aren't most Tesla super charger locations packed and overcrowded already on busy main routes? How will there be room for owners of two more brands of vehicles?
 

thaivo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
624
No but we only use one nozzle standard for the fuel
Perfection.

Cool that connector may finally start standardizing because of this as I am told Tesla's is the best, but aren't most Tesla super charger locations packed and overcrowded already on busy main routes? How will there be room for owners of two more brands of vehicles?
This means a huge expansion is coming, both in new and existing stations. The places that I charge at, tend to have a great deal of other available spaces that could be then added to the charging network. At some point, it could be unusual to go to a large parking lot / complex where there aren't a few NACS chargers.
 

Snarfington

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,937
Nothing makes me feel weirdly macho in my everyday life more than plugging in my Renault with a fat-arse CCS charger and these Tesla ones look small and wimpy so I instinctively do not like them as much. That is all. But I say that as someone in the UK where Type 2/CCS is the established standard, so
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,296
Toronto
You know what, whatever, as long as it standardizes under something.

Why the Auto Industry ever thought it was a good idea to fragment the charging port, I'll never know. All it did was ensure they wasted bills of dollars on building charging stations that went out of date every 2 years and required them to burn money needing to replace or update them, instead of just building new ones like Tesla did. They basically ate themselves alive.

But hey, don't be mad at other car manufacturers for giving up on trying to make CCS a thing in North America. They dropped the ball so hard it would have cost them billions of dollars and years to catch up. This was a situation where the Government really needed to have gotten off its fucking ass and write some damned legislation to set a standard. They didn't do that, and everyone but Tesla owners suffered for it.

With that out of the way, from what I've heard from Electric vehicle owners, the Tesla network has always been way more robust than the CCS ones anyways. And going off some of the tech people I watch CCS is super bloated and convoluted, which leads to it being less user friendly and less feature rich. So it's really no wonder that these companies in North America are jumping ship.
 
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Marshall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,033
It should be mandated that if any federal funding is used, CSS adapters must be available (Magic Dock).
 

skyappl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
283
I would only support Tesla's plug becoming a standard if it were completely open with absolutely no restrictions or requirements from Tesla. Like no patents or anything. Is that the case?
 

thaivo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
624
It should be mandated that if any federal funding is used, CSS adapters must be available (Magic Dock).
This change means the inverse. It is very likely that the Magic Dock will now be stillborn and not become very prevalent. At some point, what percentage of cars would even have CCS? It could be less than 1% in five years.
 

Embiid

Member
Feb 20, 2021
6,276
TSLA up to 234, was at ~160ish a little over a month ago. Hope y'all got in!
 

base_two

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,824
Cool that connector may finally start standardizing because of this as I am told Tesla's is the best, but aren't most Tesla super charger locations packed and overcrowded already on busy main routes? How will there be room for owners of two more brands of vehicles?

Tesla built over 1200 stations in 2022, almost an expansion of a third of the existing network at the time. They are aiming to well exceed that this year. The Electrify America and the CCS1 standard just cannot compete with those numbers and reliability is shit anyway. Time to move on.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,246
East Lansing, MI
I would only support Tesla's plug becoming a standard if it were completely open with absolutely no restrictions or requirements from Tesla. Like no patents or anything. Is that the case?

It was exclusive to Tesla until 2022. So now it's fair game.

Honestly this is a HD-DVD vs Blu-ray argument. NACS has won in the US. Let's standardize it already.
 

Ketch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,307
The electricity is all the same right? So just put more then one cord on each charging station. Gas pumps have had multiple hoses forever
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,296
Toronto
It should be mandated that if any federal funding is used, CSS adapters must be available (Magic Dock).

Would just be a waste of money. NACS won North America and going forward there will only be exponentially more cas using NACS than CCS.

The thing that sucks the most here is if someone imports a car from Europe, Asia, or vice versa, the ports won't match up and there won't be a way to resolve that. So those people will always need to carry an adapter. But also, that's a very small portion of the population. And if you have an e-car from before the standardization you similarly will also need to carry an adapter.

That situation is the governments fault. But just because they screwed up once doesn't mean they should screw up again and waste money to put in ports that will see an ever decreasing usage.

Should the industry change its mind again, or the government do a 180 and say "No, actually you must use X instead" we can re-evaluate then. Until then we need to build what the standard will be, not what it was.
 

0ptimusPayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,792
People that are negative on this news don't have an EV in the US. Tesla's network and its connector is just miles better than CCS... This will spur all other charging networks to also adopt NACS. It's over in America at this point, and thank goodness for that. This is only good for the EV industry and consumers.
.
 

Lace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
908
This is great news. The super charging network is one of the primary reasons why I went with Tesla in the first place. This will open up my choices for whatever car I will buy in the future.

I feel for early EV adopters who ultimately will be stuck with a bulky adapter accessory.
 

Ketch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,307
A lot of third party EV chargers have this already AFAIK. Issue becomes maintenance though. Reducing parts is better.

The other thing I don't understand is like why the big gas station brands aren't doing charging stations. Like if every shell started putting charging stations in that would be huge for them.

And maintenance would be less of an issue at a staffed location.

And they could sell junk food to people while they wait.

Idk it seems like a weird missed opportunity
 
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Deleted member 93062

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The other thing I don't understand is like why the big gas station brands aren't doing charging stations. Like if every shell started putting charging stations in that would be huge for them.

And maintenance would be less of an issue at a staffed location.

And they could sell junk food to people while they wait.

Idk it seems like a weird missed opportunity
I'm not sure nationwide but I did see this article last year relating to Georgia:
Store owners want to also sell the juice that makes electric vehicles go, and with 4,687 locations in Georgia they are positioned to do that. But they are hesitant to install expensive chargers, fearing Georgia Power will construct its own stations and have an unfair advantage in pricing the power and equipment. The owners' hesitancy is leaving EV drivers with fewer options and slowing the national priority of spreading charging infrastructure.

"Competing with a monopoly is one of our biggest concerns," Angela Holland, president of the Georgia Association of Convenience Stores, told a state House of Representatives committee Feb. 16.
www.ajc.com

Georgia convenience stores hesitant to install EV charging stations

Gas station owners want the state legislature to make sure Georgia Power does not monopolize the business of providing charging stations for electric vehicles.
I'm also guessing a lot of them are waiting for government incentives.
The bill received the support of the state's convenience store association, Tesla, the largest provider of electric charging stations, as well as Georgia Power and Georgia EMCs.
georgiarecorder.com

Georgia House panel gives state’s electric vehicle rollout a jolt, advances charging plan • Georgia Recorder

Georgia committee passes bill that sets new rate, taxes to charge electric vehicles in order to mitigate the loss of motor fuel taxes.
 

zero2000

Member
Oct 28, 2017
264
Is this just going to be sending their 2024 fleet of EV vehicles to die? 2023-2024 is loaded with GM EV launches, but why would anyone get them if the next year models will instantly have a larger network?

I was considering EV shopping this year, but now I might wait.
 

Voyager

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,638
Is this just going to be sending their 2024 fleet of EV vehicles to die? 2023-2024 is loaded with GM EV launches, but why would anyone get them if the next year models will instantly have a larger network?

I was considering EV shopping this year, but now I might wait.
I think they mentioned adaptors for those vehicles?
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
43,283
The other thing I don't understand is like why the big gas station brands aren't doing charging stations. Like if every shell started putting charging stations in that would be huge for them.

And maintenance would be less of an issue at a staffed location.

And they could sell junk food to people while they wait.

Idk it seems like a weird missed opportunity
They are probably trying to figure out a way to charge people still
 

Boy

Member
Apr 24, 2018
4,651
People that are negative on this news don't have an EV. Tesla's network and its connector is just miles better than CCS... This will spur all other charging networks to also adopt NACS. It's over in America at this point, and thank goodness for that. This is only good for the EV industry and consumers.
Yep. Completely agree.
 
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Deleted member 93062

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They are probably trying to figure out a way to charge people still
To be honest, I expect EV consumers are more likely to go into the gas station to buy stuff over gas consumers. It really doesn't make sense why we haven't seen a massive wave of gas stations (especially the big ones with inside kitchens and shit like Wawa, QuikTrip, RaceTrac) adopting EV chargers. I guess they're waiting for subsidies?
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,454
Seattle
The other thing I don't understand is like why the big gas station brands aren't doing charging stations. Like if every shell started putting charging stations in that would be huge for them.

And maintenance would be less of an issue at a staffed location.

And they could sell junk food to people while they wait.

Idk it seems like a weird missed opportunity
I think there business model involves people spending a lot more money to take up space for only a couple of minutes.

Probably hard to give up any of that space for charging stations, and certainly don't want people sitting in the regular spots for a long time to charge.
 

Hollywood Duo

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Oct 25, 2017
43,283
To be honest, I expect EV consumers are more likely to go into the gas station to buy stuff over gas consumers. It really doesn't make sense why we haven't seen a massive wave of gas stations (especially the big ones with inside kitchens and shit like Waaa, QuikTrip, RaceTrac) adopting EV chargers. I guess they're waiting for subsidies?
Well I can tell you that the Wawa by me has like 10 Tesla stations and I never see anyone going in. They all sit there on the phone or laptop. I think there is definitely some fear of leaving a car charging in public unattended.
 

Ketch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,307
I think there business model involves people spending a lot more money to take up space for only a couple of minutes.

Probably hard to give up any of that space for charging stations, and certainly don't want people sitting in the regular spots for a long time to charge.

Yea this makes sense. I was envisioning like a bank of chargers off to the side… but why use that space for anything other then more gas pumps.

Maybe it makes more sense for a large truck stop chain to add EV charging station the regular gas station
 

B'z-chan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,157
Anyone can build a charging station with NACS though, or modify current stations.
I think a lot of you misunderstand the point I'm trying to make here. It's about favoring one company and investing in them instead of investing in other companies that need the investment. Competition is necessary in the marketplace.

By Tesla convincing other manufacturers to adopt this plug they are choosing themselves as the de facto winner. Thus positioning them first inline for investments. That is manipulating a marketplace, something they wish they could have done in Europe.

You wouldn't give Shell more money if it was set to be the only gas station in the market. Sure others could choose to adopt the plug but that requires money and if that investment dries up what happens then? And that's where it breaks down to me and doesn't sit well with me.

I agree a standardization should happen, but with a lot of oversight on how our tax dollars are spent subsidizing and investing in that marketplace. As it is right now this is a play for more marketshare and money. Actions speak volumes and I've yet to see action on the scale necessary by Tesla to make me believe they are pushing for this all in good faith. If they did want to earn some of that good faith they'd offer to help the other charging networks out with adapters and equipment to convert to NACS. Thus far they haven't done anything like that.

An example of late is Microsoft's approach to deals for cloud gaming and how they are offering even the smallest players in the space deals to ensure games are widely available on other services. Yes it benefits their goals so they can close on the Activision deal, but it also shows their willingness to not kill a market before it's matured.