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Deathcember Wrasslin |OT| Take A Walk to Cool Down

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,266
In defence of the Asuka reign they actually started to do something interesting when Asuka started having to cheat to beat Ember but they totally fucked up the landing.
In defense of them fucking up the landing, Asuka could have murdered a baby in the middle of the ring and the NXT crowd wouldn’t have booed her.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
Phoenix
Long reigns don't work if the champ is doing a modern full time schedule, change my mind.
This is a place where AEW's lighter schedule could help them. When a does a reign transition from 'when are they gonna take the belt off so and so' to long term reign? Obviously there are situations where it never does (see Brock reigns or Shayna reign) but Nicole Savoy had the longest reign in Shimmer and there was hardly a peep from a disgruntled fanbase and Gage has been champ in GCW since Christ was a carpenter and everyone is cool with it.

How much of that transition is champ quality and how much of that relies on all the other matches in the promotion being interesting?

(Infrequent matches have also helped Nick Aldis. Change my mind.)
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,266
This is a place where AEW's lighter schedule could help them. When a does a reign transition from 'when are they gonna take the belt off so and so' to long term reign? Obviously there are situations where it never does (see Brock reigns or Shayna reign) but Nicole Savoy had the longest reign in Shimmer and there was hardly a peep from a disgruntled fanbase and Gage has been champ in GCW since Christ was a carpenter and everyone is cool with it.

How much of that transition is champ quality and how much of that relies on all the other matches in the promotion being interesting?

(Infrequent matches have also helped Nick Aldis. Change my mind.)
Idk. Jericho has been champ three months and I’m already getting tired of him.
 
Oct 8, 2019
421

WWE is bringing back Chris DeJoseph of Lucha Underground and Big Dick Johnson fame. Hopefully he does more than just tell Vince McMahon how great his ideas are and he puts forth some of the effort he gave Lucha Underground


I don't know if they need a person with brand new ideas who just seems to hate wrestling, but they do need to stop expecting a million people to know who some guy on the Indies are or expecting a casual audience to care about someone because they can do a standing shooting star press.
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,374
remember when Cedric Alexander said he wasn't getting buried because of losing all his matches to AJ Styles.

Apparently he's moved on to losing matches to Mojo before Raw even airs

 

Sibersk Esto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,170
This is a place where AEW's lighter schedule could help them. When a does a reign transition from 'when are they gonna take the belt off so and so' to long term reign? Obviously there are situations where it never does (see Brock reigns or Shayna reign) but Nicole Savoy had the longest reign in Shimmer and there was hardly a peep from a disgruntled fanbase and Gage has been champ in GCW since Christ was a carpenter and everyone is cool with it.

How much of that transition is champ quality and how much of that relies on all the other matches in the promotion being interesting?

(Infrequent matches have also helped Nick Aldis. Change my mind.)
Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan are two of the most successful draws in wrestling history. Austin only has one reign as champ that lasted 100 days while Hogan has 3 that went over 400.

It has to do with exposure, with the depth of the roster, the twists and turns in the reigns to keep them fresh.


WWE is bringing back Chris DeJoseph of Lucha Underground and Big Dick Johnson fame. Hopefully he does more than just tell Vince McMahon how great his ideas are and he puts forth some of the effort he gave Lucha Underground


I don't know if they need a person with brand new ideas who just seems to hate wrestling, but they do need to stop expecting a million people to know who some guy on the Indies are or expecting a casual audience to care about someone because they can do a standing shooting star press.
He’s not saying to get someone who hates wrestling, he says to get someone who can say that what’s been done isn’t going to work anymore.
 
Oct 8, 2019
421
He’s not saying to get someone who hates wrestling, he says to get someone who can say that what’s been done isn’t going to work anymore.
Which is an interesting dilemma because how do you find that person because Vince has been hiring writers for 20 years, and they just create these long monologues that turn off the viewers because theirs nothing authentic about the wrestlers.

Vince Russo hated the wrestling part of wrestling so he would basically just fill WWE with 2 minute matches that all ended in interference, and in WCW devalued every championship by having matches like 49ers match where the WCW Heavyweight championship is in a box and they have to find it out of a bunch of boxes that contained a blowup doll and a framed picture of Scott Hall.
 

Sibersk Esto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,170
Which is an interesting dilemma because how do you find that person because Vince has been hiring writers for 20 years, and they just create these long monologues that turn off the viewers because theirs nothing authentic about the wrestlers.

Vince Russo hated the wrestling part of wrestling so he would basically just fill WWE with 2 minute matches that all ended in interference, and in WCW devalued every championship by having matches like 49ers match where the WCW Heavyweight championship is in a box and they have to find it out of a bunch of boxes that contained a blowup doll and a framed picture of Scott Hall.
Here’s every main event promo for the year 2000, considered by most to be WWF’s most consistent year creatively, barring Wrestlemania
Whether you believe the credit should go to Vince, Bruce Prichard, Brian Gewirtz or Chris Kreski, you can see how they managed to build a year’s worth of consistent storytelling that you don’t see today
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,374
Which is an interesting dilemma because how do you find that person because Vince has been hiring writers for 20 years, and they just create these long monologues that turn off the viewers because theirs nothing authentic about the wrestlers.

Vince Russo hated the wrestling part of wrestling so he would basically just fill WWE with 2 minute matches that all ended in interference, and in WCW devalued every championship by having matches like 49ers match where the WCW Heavyweight championship is in a box and they have to find it out of a bunch of boxes that contained a blowup doll and a framed picture of Scott Hall.
It's crazy to me how it seemed like every wrestler to be on talking smack was 100 times more likable because what they were saying wasn't scripted word for word. Why they never took what work and implemented it on Raw I'll never understand.

Hell Talking Smack made me a Miz fan.

 

The Kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
658
Maybe Triple H has a point every time he says that the WWE competes not just against other wrestling, but sports, video games, other tv shows. There are just more easily accessible forms of entertainment now besides TV, which is probably why all TV including wrestling is declining. I don’t think there is ever going to be another boom period for wrestling. The WWE will just slowly die and we will revert to just smaller products for hardcore fans.
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,600
North American wrestling has been the same for that's a long time it's time for a reboot
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
Phoenix
North American wrestling has been the same for that's a long time it's time for a reboot
Things coulda been different but American TV audiences didn't like one of the following:
  1. Finding El Rey on their TV
  2. intergender wrestling
  3. the occasional hardcore match that was close to death match
  4. Going all-in on a commitment to identifying as fiction
  5. A SACRIFICE TO THE GODS
  6. Vampiro
  7. Dario & Antonio Cueto shouting ladder match
 
Oct 8, 2019
421
Here’s every main event promo for the year 2000, considered by most to be WWF’s most consistent year creatively, barring Wrestlemania
Whether you believe the credit should go to Vince, Bruce Prichard, Brian Gewirtz or Chris Kreski, you can see how they managed to build a year’s worth of consistent storytelling that you don’t see today
The lack of consistent storylines is the thing that I think is holding back wrestling more than anything. Raw and Smackdown are often completely re-written before they go on the air, Cedric Alexander went from feuding with AJ Styles for the US heavyweight championship to losing to Mojo Rawley on Main Event (which barely anyone watches). During the Roman is attacked storyline they introduced the idea that some random bearded guy did it, then the random bearded guy is never brought up again. Buddy Murphy beat Daniel Bryan, and went toe to toe with Roman Reigns, than he disappeared before challenging Aleister Black to a match. Daniel Bryan lost to a bunch of people, and now his feuding with Bray Wyatt over the Universal Championship.

AEW has a similar problem where people will change their gimmicks automatically with no explanation for the gimmick change. Why is Allie dressed as a Bunny ordering two guys to assault Cody Rhodes, why is Brandi Rhodes cutting people hair with the implication that she knows Vodoo, why did they wait several months to explain that the Dark Order is a cult,?
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,602
Things coulda been different but American TV audiences didn't like one of the following:
  1. Finding El Rey on their TV
  2. intergender wrestling
  3. the occasional hardcore match that was close to death match
  4. Going all-in on a commitment to identifying as fiction
  5. A SACRIFICE TO THE GODS
  6. Vampiro
  7. Dario & Antonio Cueto shouting ladder match
I enjoyed the later seasons of LU but realistically the show was dead when they couldn't get on Univision and then went on hiatus for over a year.
 

Sibersk Esto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,170
The lack of consistent storylines is the thing that I think is holding back wrestling more than anything. Raw and Smackdown are often completely re-written before they go on the air, Cedric Alexander went from feuding with AJ Styles for the US heavyweight championship to losing to Mojo Rawley on Main Event (which barely anyone watches). During the Roman is attacked storyline they introduced the idea that some random bearded guy did it, then the random bearded guy is never brought up again. Buddy Murphy beat Daniel Bryan, and went toe to toe with Roman Reigns, than he disappeared before challenging Aleister Black to a match. Daniel Bryan lost to a bunch of people, and now his feuding with Bray Wyatt over the Universal Championship.

AEW has a similar problem where people will change their gimmicks automatically with no explanation for the gimmick change. Why is Allie dressed as a Bunny ordering two guys to assault Cody Rhodes, why is Brandi Rhodes cutting people hair with the implication that she knows Vodoo, why did they wait several months to explain that the Dark Order is a cult,?
That’s the aspect of American wrestling that needs to be phased out. Developments that are used for a quick pop and then dropped, or come from nowhere. Wrestling needs to become more patient again.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,574
Upstate NY
As I just called dibs on the 2019 Game Awards thread, anyone want to help me come up witha snappy title? Preferably poking a bit of fun at Death Stranding getting the most noms and Geoff Keighley being involved with the game?
 
Oct 8, 2019
421
Things coulda been different but American TV audiences didn't like one of the following:
  1. Finding El Rey on their TV
  2. intergender wrestling
  3. the occasional hardcore match that was close to death match
  4. Going all-in on a commitment to identifying as fiction
  5. A SACRIFICE TO THE GODS
  6. Vampiro
  7. Dario & Antonio Cueto shouting ladder match
I think the main problem of Lucha Underground is that you basically had main characters that had very little to do with the main story (uniting the different tribes against the Gods who are gaining human form), by the time they had focused the storyline, the show was over.

Just look at Black Lotus, they have the storyline where she's being lied to about the death of her parents, she's revealed to be the leader of a triad, then she disappears returns without her followers (because they were only at one taping they were never signed, and two of them got signed by WWE), then she disappears again before returning to kill Matanza.
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,600
Things coulda been different but American TV audiences didn't like one of the following:
  1. Finding El Rey on their TV
  2. intergender wrestling
  3. the occasional hardcore match that was close to death match
  4. Going all-in on a commitment to identifying as fiction
  5. A SACRIFICE TO THE GODS
  6. Vampiro
  7. Dario & Antonio Cueto shouting ladder match
Lucha underground wasn't the answer
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
Phoenix
I feel like something like The Titan Games cross pro-wrestling is the answer. I really enjoyed all of the pro-wrestling earmarks in The Titan Games. Everyone got chances to cut promos and most of them were good, compelling video packages and a general story structure that felt a lot like King of the Ring. I felt like if people had been in a ring instead of shimmying about on some giant ass playground gym it would have been untouchable. One touch I really liked was that no one seemed like a dickhead. Lots of the promos were "I'm going to do my best!" or "I'm going to try hard to make my family proud!"

Executive Producer The Rock seemed to recognize that 2019 is generally awful enough a lot of us don't have the energy for more heels in our life.

Side note: One of the contestants totally seemed to be the total package for wrestling and, sure enough, WWE gave her a tryout shortly after the show. They didn't pick her up.