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Democratic Presidential Primary |February OT| It Can't be Worse than Iowa, Right? (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
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As do I. Still not concerned about making a better society.
I'm gonna try to engage here, but with 11 points, it's a little bit difficult, so I'll just briefly summarize your position in parentheses and then offer something after it. If I misrepresent you, my fault. Just trying to go for readability rather than quote you 11+ different times. First off, my background: I'm in my 30s, divorced but in another long-term relationship, no kids, and I'm an Air Force officer.
- Immigration (immigrants should "do it the right way"): That's actually the position of most folks, including people running for the Democratic nomination. No one's arguing for open borders or saying that undocumented folks released prior to a hearing before an immigration judge shouldn't have a hearing and possibly face removal. Two caveats: (a) Dreamers, whom most people, including some Republicans, think should have a path to citizenship; and (b) asylum-seekers. For the latter, the U.S. is bound by international treaties which it's signed to follow certain procedures in handling them.
- Minimum Wage (no $20 minimum wage): I think most are advocating for $15. I think minimum wages have distortionary market effects, and I personally question their value and think they're a bandaid solution. However, I think, just like you do, that everyone should be able to feed their family... period.
- Markets (support free markets): Everyone, even Bernie, supports a market-based economy. I also think it's possible that some billionaires are good people (see: Tom Steyer). But the system that produced them is afflicted with rampant inequality.
- Capitalism/Socialism (support capitalism): So does everyone else. No candidate is advocating for socialism -- i.e., collective allocation of all resources among people as apportioned by the government. At best, they're advocating for regulations that keep the wheels from falling off. Like in Denmark.
- Size of Government (less is better): The size doesn't matter, but rather the efficiency does. Government's needed because it can impose those regulations to avert phenomena like the tragedy of the commons, where people, acting in their own self-interest, spoil a common good for everyone else. Think: one fisherman getting all the fish in a pond. Besides, some utilities -- such as health care -- lend themselves to nationalized systems where the risk pool can be spread across the largest set of people.
- Abortion (some cutoff is needed): Gonna skip this one. We won't agree. I think it's not my choice to make, ever.
- "Free handouts" (opposed): I am not sure what you mean here.
- Free college (opposed): I'm for this, because it would help train Americans to be more competitive in the global economy. Yes, some kids would party. But they wouldn't be locked out of jobs by nature of not having a degree.
- Free speech: This means First Amendment rights. The Government is not going to fine anyone if they misgender someone; it just means that person's a jerk. And, you already said you would use the correct pronoun if asked, so I don't know what the issue is?
- Guns (in favor of the Second Amendment): Requires more space than little responses here, but none of the candidates are talking about gun confiscations: they're talking about stuff like background checks, which are overwhelmingly supported by the vast majority of Americans.
- Climate change (carbon capture, not carbon neutral): I think climate change is an existential threat and the U.S. should lead on it, and that does mean investing heavily in technology -- including carton capture.
Yep
Every job should require a living wage and in CA in certain places $15 is barely even that. And without a law enforcing the terrible tip culture they'll continue to be paid under minimum wage anyway!
And no, tips don't cover it everytime. I worked as a delivery driver and most days I made under minimum wage.
the union should just use HARD WORK and GRIT to protect its members! None of those LAZY handouts!
An interesting point, I wonder what the rebuttal will be?
Dear god you are a fucking moron. It's not a monopoly, they are your collective representation. They are there to represent YOUR interests. The money you pay them is called 'dues', they need that in order to effectively negotiate on your behalf. That's why you have "killer union retirement".
Grade A reponse here. I bootstraped my way up by work ethic btw. I trade stocks through my Roth IRAthat I fund with my taxed income. This makes me a peice of shit?
You know I used to think I was a republican by business policy but a dem on social issues. Idk anymore. What happened to the left being the tolerant ones?
Boo hoo, you have to contribute to the union so it can fight for your nice retirement!
Ahahahaha
I'm of the same mindset of the other voter. I'm Bernie or bust at the moment with his movement he is pushing. I'm Independent and don't vote solely Democrat. If he doesn't get the nomination, I'm saying fuck the system and just let it crash and burn. I'm all about revolutionizing our system, and he is the only candidate that is speaking to me.
Fun fact, 5$/hr was what I was paid when I worked in the service industry. And it was a more demanding job physically and mentally than any cushy desk jobs I've had since.
So what do you think of Trump's crackdown on legal immigration? Honestly more than anything, he's reduced the number of legal immigrants to this country in a largely arbitrary manner. In the tech industry as an example, it's becoming really hard for them to even get Visas for bright and talented international students. Those who obviously immigrated legally, have no criminal record, and are supremely qualified.
Secondly, are you aware that as a waiter / waitress you can be paid as low as ~$2 / hour? Plenty of bars and restaurants do that. Like honestly how is that even a minimal wage for anyone? At the very least it's an incredibly horrid practice that the restaurant industry uses to pay people < $20 a day, which is insane. I think you seem to have a misconception that they'll be earning tons of money after that. Like $15 / hr is about $31K / year. I'm sure in states like California you wouldn't be able to afford basic necessities with even that wage. Given the federal min wage is like $7 / hr... what exactly is that supposed to pay for exactly?
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So, he's not my candidate (and tbh I'm not much of a moderate, nor are most other people here), but there was actually a really interesting discussion The Weeds a couple weeks back about the differing legislative approaches between Bernie and Biden. Biden will essentially take a bill loaded with pretty bad stuff if it means he also gets what he's going for. Bernie will absolutely take a bill that's less than what he wanted initially, but he's much more hesitant to trade.
Tbh, I don't think Joe's approach is going to bear much fruit these days. What happened with the ACA is they tried to do things his way and it still ended up having to be passed with 0 Republican votes.
I don't see much of a difference legislatively from the Bernie or Biden. So if that's the case, why would I support someone I don't particularly like?
They take more money than any other construction union in the state. Too much.
I didn't really know a lot about Warren but I've really grown to like her since her amazing debate. She deserves to be doing better. I would be happy with either her or Bernie taking it.
Biden also impressed me tonight but I agree with you on your assessments on everyone, Bernie included.
I vaguely remember his campaign running away from a very popular president and also picking what turned out to later be a Dem moderate assed backstabber as running mate. That's on him for running a campaign that ended up having to rely on FL.
As for Obama - he ran as a progressive change candidate - in practice yes, he was much more centrist. Probably spoke to the massive Senate/House losses in 2010-2016 downballot. And the relative ease in erasing many things in Trump's short time in office thus far.
I would love to pick your brain to understand you being so passionate about Bernie Sanders but would vote or have voted for a Republican at one point in time. What changed for you?
Yet you have a "killer retirement" thanks to the union so clearly they aren't taking enough.
I just want to misgender people and yet I'm the bad guy? Is this what liberalism has come to?
:/
Like I told the other poster slick, the contention here is not liberal vs moderate, it's boring moderate.
They have an abysmal track record and all that is left on the docket besides Bernie fits that bill. Warren is still my favorite politician, but she shit the bed.
And what I don't see any of you all offering is an argument for why it will be different now? And in a way that wouldn't also apply to Bernie? Dem moderates continue to demonstrate they are susceptible to sustained Republican propaganda and their enthusiasm deflated accordingly, to which a boring moderate has no avenue to overcome. Lefter wing voters will not get excited over candidates that don't inspire them. Election after election has demonstrated this. The youth will not even care at all. And moderate Republicans are increasingly indistinguishable from hard right ones at the ballot because they are more and more tribally loyal and more susceptible to the notion that the worst Republican is better than the best Democrat. So how does the boring moderate compile a stronger coalition than any candidate that at least has a strong base of support to work with? The strongest argument I have been presented is that Trump is so unpopular people will just vote against him(we've heard that before), and so the key is to go with the guy that offends the least(also heard that before). But that still fails to demonstrate why that is the more optimal path than the guy that is going to have a base of support less moved by those attacks and baked in forces?
Just stop, what is your hourly wage? I'd imagine it'd be cut in half if you weren't in a union
Nates model drastically over reacts with every result. There's no point following it
I give you credit for even trying to argue with someone like that. I was just waiting for him to show his ass, and he did my job for me.
I'm not defending Gore's campaign in total - I would've prefered Bob Graham over Lieberman, but I'm just saying Paul Wellstone would've done a lot worse.
Obama ran on a surge in the Afghan War, running to the right of Hillary on health care, and a generic generational change candidacy, as opposed to any ideology, beyond Democratic center-leftism that both Hillary & Obama stood for.
The same way Bernie would - convincing Joe Manchin, Kristen Sinema, and other moderates that his plans are good. Both Bernie & Biden are DOA if there's still a Republican Senate.
Well that's what happens when we've had so few points of data I'd assume. I just wanted an excuse to say Oh bother :)
I'm pretty sure I'm California that tipped workers still have to be paid whatever normal minimum wage is. But If I'm wrong that ya that's terrible and they deserve better.
If Biden wanted to broker with a Progressive but not Bernie, Warren would probably be hoping for the VP nomination. Problem is, I think Biden and Bernie are friends too yes? Could totally see a Biden - Bernie ticket.
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Fuck, I loved that game's soundtrack. And the rest of it tbh, the cast was incredible.
Man it wouldn't surprise me if that was the plan after she figured wasn't getting delegates from many key states.
Yet your pay and benefits are very good and you are going to retire at 50. Doesn't seem like they are taking too much to me.
1) Nobody supports illegal immigration. It has been at a net zero since 2012.
2) If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation, it would be $22/hour.
3) We live in a free market economy. That's not going to change.
4) I don't believe there is a single elected socialist in our government. There are, however, social democrats like Bernie Sanders. Denmark is a social democracy.
5) Then you must hate Republicans
7) Nobody in the US gets free handouts
8) Why shouldn't state colleges be "free" like any other public school? Or cheaper at least?
9) What does free speech have to do with pronouns?
11) We have the second highest Co2 emissions, and it is growing
So, from your list, I'm not really seeing anything that would cause you to vote Republican? You seem moderate but with some misguided and/or ill-informed opinions with some GOP talking points thrown in. These days only one political party has any moderates in it, and it's not the GOP.
He said he makes 90k, so around 43 an hour. But the union takes away 5 an hour!!
If he's on 90k a year, assuming a standard work week (in construction though so IDK) a bit more of $40/hour.
DOing a bit? Coming out as a republican on a forum like this gets more 20 quotes in an hr. Getting bashed over and over and over again.
The game goes all in on the silliness and makes it so much fun to experience.
Actual picture of Comrade Sanders storming Washington, D.C., January, 2021.
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