Electric Cars Are Better For The Environment Than A 50 MPG Gasoline Car: Report

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
range extender is a small two stroke motorcycle engine that just charges the battery, and the car reduces performance to drive at the rate of electricity generation. Much simpler - no dual drive, no gearbox etc.
Which functionally makes it a plug in hybrid? Haha

(The i3 range extender could barely keep the car going only on gas at highway speeds so it was not as useful as it sounds)
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,160
If you have a supercharge station nearby you can charge up to 80% in about 45 minutes. Lots of people I know park at a Target supercharger, do the errands, and are good for 2-3 days.
You honestly cannot see how that can be bothersome to people compared to pumping for a couple of minutes that can last them over a week?
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
Burning fossil fuels is not a pre-requisite to obtaining hydrogen. It just requires energy.

Compare that to the growing environmental impact of obtaining lithium. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact
Sure but reforming natural gas is by far the cheapest way to produce hydrogen (and a good way to produce CO2) and until the economics change it's hard to argue that hydrogen is a green choice. (Who knows, that could happen. I think they've been about 5 years from a breakthrough for the last 20-30 years.)

It fundamentally uses so much more energy to produce hydrogen that unless there is just so much excess green energy that would otherwise be wasted and nowhere else to put it, it's hard to justify converting it into hydrogen IMHO.
 

Faiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,088
I’d loved to have bought a full EV but no way I was gonna be able to justify the cost. Got a standard hybrid. Last time I bought gas was 1/25 and I’ve only used about a quarter of a tank. If I drove a lot more than I do and my gas costs were higher the economics MIGHT have worked in my favor but I have my doubts.

honestly a few years back there was a big hubbub about Musk opening up the Tesla patents and I thought for sure it would drive innovation and help make it more affordable by the time I had to replace my car. But nope!
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,770
Honestly, the i3 range extender and Volt should be a separate class from plug-in hybrids as the drivetrain is all electric vs plug-in hybrids that can use the engine to drive the vehicle ex: highway cruising efficiency
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
Sure but reforming natural gas is by far the cheapest way to produce hydrogen (and a good way to produce CO2) and until the economics change it's hard to argue that hydrogen is a green choice. (Who knows, that could happen. I think they've been about 5 years from a breakthrough for the last 20-30 years.)

It fundamentally uses so much more energy to produce hydrogen that unless there is just so much excess green energy that would otherwise be wasted and nowhere else to put it, it's hard to justify converting it into hydrogen IMHO.
No disagreement here. I agree it's not currently feasible, but when when we're talking long term (50-100 years) that equation could change...and there's a valid argument to make that not relying on limited resources like rare earth metals is ultimately the long term solution.

...assuming we don't find a way to make batteries out of something more prevalent and easily obtainable of course.
 

EnronERA

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,417
As far as I can see these estimates do not include transmission losses across the electrical grid. They detail the distribution impact for fossil fuel burning vehicles but do not include that category in their breakdown of electric vehicle emissions. That is a significant oversight.
it's not an oversight, it's intentional.

Engineering Explained on YT is doing a series of vids on EVs.


 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,535
You honestly cannot see how that can be bothersome to people compared to pumping for a couple of minutes that can last them over a week?
The people I know that have it don’t feel like it’s a big deal. So...no?

I understand it may not be for everyone but it’s not as dramatic as most people make it sound.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
8,836
Yeah it's certainly not ideal, they're more meant for road trips... But I've read plenty of Tesla stories of people doing nothing but supercharging and showing minimal degradation after years



Yeah I remember watching that video, and I do believe he cuts off the calculation after what 5 to 6 years. I was making the point earlier that the standard 200k miles and then the car needs to be crushed at a junkyard really does not apply to EVs and makes these calculations end up completely wrong because it's not looking at lifetime. Obviously it will take years to get the data, but I see no reason the vast majority of Model 3s won't end up lasting 500k plus miles... That REALLY changes the carbon equations. The battery is rated to last 500k miles.. And that doesn't mean it stops working then, just will be showing degradation but by all means the car will continue to drive just with less range, while the drive train is rated for a million miles. Everything else is trivial to repair/replace. The next gen Tesla batterys are supposed to be rated for a million miles as well, that will fundamentaly alter the very idea of car ownership if 1 car can last an entire lifetime of driving....
So what is the warranty that Tesla (or other electronic manufacturers) give on the batteries/car, then? Is it 500k? Also how quickly does the battery degrade and how much does it cost to replace if you happen to buy it secondhand or if it gets damaged somehow in a collision? (not trolling here, I'm honestly asking)

I have a hard time believing that car manufacturers would buy into this "1 car can last a lifetime" thing without putting some kind of planned obsolescence to mitigate it.

As far as costs go, how many states are going to start putting extra fees for registering these cars because owners pay nothing in gas taxes for the roads (and are usually a fair bit heavier than a similar sized car due to battery)?
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,500
I'm not surprised, but it is extremely difficult to convince people to switch over. Myself included.

And it's unlikely everyone can switch over. We need to develop nuclear-powered cars.

To be clear, nuclear-powered cars is a half-joke
 
OP
OP
Ryno23

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
831
So what is the warranty that Tesla (or other electronic manufacturers) give on the batteries/car, then? Is it 500k? Also how quickly does the battery degrade and how much does it cost to replace if you happen to buy it secondhand or if it gets damaged somehow in a collision? (not trolling here, I'm honestly asking)

I have a hard time believing that car manufacturers would buy into this "1 car can last a lifetime" thing without putting some kind of planned obsolescence to mitigate it.

As far as costs go, how many states are going to start putting extra fees for registering these cars because owners pay nothing in gas taxes for the roads (and are usually a fair bit heavier than a similar sized car due to battery)?
Tesla warrants for 120k for the battery. The 500k is from their internal testing.

You're absolutely right no car company would be cool with 1 car lasting a lifetime...but Tesla is different because if their autonomous robo taxi network. The longer the cars last on the road the more money Tesla makes, it's very much in their best financial interests for the cars to last 1 million miles and that is their stated goal.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
618
Fun talk guys, great answers to my honest question. Instead of insulting me, maybe provide said data. I drive less than six miles to get to work because I chose a logical place to live. The full product lifecycle emissions are important to my own situation.
I wasn't insulting you, sorry if it came off that way. I agree with you that we need the answer to that question, I just don't know what it is either and I don't trust my gut inclination in this situation because aforementioned gut is stupid.
 
OP
OP
Ryno23

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
831

So the Model S now has 390 miles of range. In 2012 when it first launched it had around 270. Things continue to rapidly improve, I realize many can't afford right now or have serious range anxiety or lack home charging options, but we're rapidly approaching the sweet spot of a ~25k 300+ mile range EV, they will be here sooner than people think hopefully just a few years out.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
4,220
where i intend to raise my family has virtually 0 infrastructure for EV's unfortunately.