What should happen to Aerith in the FFVIIR saga?

  • She should die, it's her destiny

    Votes: 395 57.7%
  • She should live, fuck destiny

    Votes: 289 42.3%

  • Total voters
    684
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
Frankly, I imagined she was tougher in the original but perhaps that was just my projection(there's always room for that without voice acting).

Her characterization in Remake isn't completely absent some nuance but at times it still comes off as pandering to fanfic writers to me.

It's a matter about having way more dialogue but all centered of she either being insecure/worried or in love with Cloud, there's nothing beyond that on her. Like for example, when you wake her up first in the sewers in the OG she's just like "this sucks!", it's barebones as fuck but it gives a different tone on her character, Her she have more dialogue but she's like "but what about you and Aerith...". They centered too much in her shy and insecure trait from the original and her crush with Cloud that it ended up changing the character IMO

Compare to all the new scenes of Aerith and the difference is huge, you can see a lot of different faces of Aerith personality during the game, more than in the original.

Yeah, it absolutely kills me to say this, but despite her VA being great, they absolutely butchered Tifa's character to make her into some "waifu." She's not allowed to react to stuff beyond being sad and meek (anger at Shinra beyond clenching her fist once? anger at Sephiroth? trying to keep Cloud in sector 7? nah, that's too aggressive, she just has to be sweet and understanding).

What's more, every moment where she displayed confidence or took action on her own in the original has been replaced by someone else doing it for her, and she is constantly portrayed as completely useless and in need of saving by whatever other man is in the scene. The vast majority of the time it's Cloud grabbing her and pulling out of the way of something falling even though it adds NOTHING to the scene beyond wanting to have another moment of her being completely useless, but Barret gets in on it too and they even have Leslie push her out of the way of Abzu! Leslie! Tifa can't do ANYTHING by herself in this game.

They try to pull some BS "oh she's totally empowered, go girl" by giving her two moments where she displays her strength by punching random enemies that mean nothing to the plot at all (the Eligor fight and one of the test subjects after saving Red XIII). It's like they wanted to distill her character down into a friendly shy girl trope and chopped everything else about her off. The stupid ending I can compartmentalize as stupid new stuff, but I can't ignore Tifa's characterization in the same way. It's absolutely the worst portrayal of any of the characters in the game and made me mad as it went along.

Basically this.


Tifa was always the soft-spoken, considerate girl who could beat stuff up. Aerith was the one with more agency despite being the healer archetype.

It was deliberate role reversal based on their aesthetics. If anything, Tifa does more this time around than in the original. Fleshing out her character only shows that she's always been demure and supportive towards Cloud. Which I guess doesn't resonate with some people's image of her.

What more she does in this one? They added her being worried about Avalanche subplot, which is a subplot for Cloud's character development, not hers, and cuts a moment from the original where she had some kind of agency over Cloud.

The problem is that fleshing out that aspect of her personality with new scenes ends up being the only thing remarkable about her, they forgot to add more depth about her other than being worried about everything and crazy for Cloud, comparing to Aerith where you can see here being sassy, kind, sweet, aggressive, etc etc.... Tifa is just a one not character, other than some random "kicks a monsters" that seems to be put because devs were aware they had nothing more for her.

I know about the role-reversal but, I don't deny that, I'm just saying they went too far with it in this game.
 

Aly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,447
Tifa was always the soft-spoken, considerate girl who could beat stuff up. Aerith was the one with more agency despite being the healer archetype.

It was deliberate role reversal based on their aesthetics. If anything, Tifa does more this time around than in the original. Fleshing out her character only shows that she's always been demure and supportive towards Cloud. Which I guess doesn't resonate with some people's image of her.

Yep. Noticed a lot of people having a hard time with this. Unfortunate too becausea lot of Tifas image comes form her looks for a lot of people.
 

KOfLegend

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,795
Was Aerith's VA really inconsistent, or is it just me? It was always good but I swear it sounded like two different people were voicing her at times. Am I going crazy? I still don't have a sense of what she actually sounds like and I'm almost done with my hard playthrough.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
Was Aerith's VA really inconsistent, or is it just me? It was always good but I swear it sounded like two different people were voicing her at times. Am I going crazy?

Sounded fine to me, didn't notice any difference.

I loved the English VA tbh, the only weird one was Barret, but that's because I always played FF7 in Spanish and he wasn't Mr.T in there unlike the American version.
 

TGR Sean

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,116
Orlando, Florida
"You best start believing in ghost stories, Miss Turner... you're in one!"

Starting with Clouds flash forward in the church, I was flirting with the idea of the changes in FF7R eventually leading to a sequel. That Cloud was reexperiencing the original game from some point in the future, perhaps as a result of being thrown back into the Lifestream, and that at the end of the remakes we'd get FFVII-2. The feels when you realize you've been playing a sequel the whole time.

sogood.gif
 

crimilde

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,006
so what's up with Singularity. where is it, what is it? what's the big boy supposed to be?

The singularity is "nowhere", in the sense that it's not a "real" place. You could say it's the center of a black hole - the center of the Whispers' dimension, maybe.

Whisper Harbinger is basically a personification of Destiny that the party is trying to defeat in order to get rid of predestination (aka the events of OG FFVII).
 

KOfLegend

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,795
Sounded fine to me, didn't notice any difference.

I loved the English VA tbh, the only weird one was Barret, but that's because I always played FF7 in Spanish and he wasn't Mr.T in there unlike the American version.
Damn, I'm going crazy then.

Yeah, the English VA was solid across the board imo. Wasn't really expecting it since the most of the people they cast were either newbies or TV actors. I was pleasantly surprised!
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,570
Earth, 21st Century
I've never once heard of the devs corroborating this but perhaps you have some sources? Seems like a boring oversimplification.

She was somewhat of a blank slate.
It's hard to find using Google because everything that pops up seems to be about the remake now, but I distinctly remember reading that this was the intention behind their designs.

She's shown caring about Avalanche here too, but has added scenes of doubt concerning Avalanche's activities, extra scenes worrying about Don Corneo saying the plate was going to fall (trying to convince herself it isn't true), and so on. Her self-doubt was always a thing and is on full display here. If anything, she has more depth than in the original, because she actively volunteers herself to go help Cloud at the pillar after initially staying down to help everyone else (instead of simply following him in the original), even saving him when he's in trouble. She volunteers to swing on the chandeliers in the Shinra building. Etc.

I personally like Tifa's character. But I'm not saying anyone has to like or agree with Tifa's characterization, only that it's 100% in line with how she was originally depicted, which was someone in a supportive role who cared about Cloud. Which has now been expanded into caring about others in general.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,913
Elysium
I'm replaying the OG on PS4 and it's clear how much they ruined Tifa in Remake even if she has a lot more of dialogue.

nah I absolutely disagree. Tifa was really fine in this. I felt like both Aerith and Tifa were much better characters overall but obviously we can only judge by the Midgar portion.
 

crimilde

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,006
nah I absolutely disagree. Tifa was really fine in this. I felt like both Aerith and Tifa were much better characters overall but obviously we can only judge by the Midgar portion.

I agree. The only thing that felt weird with Tifa for me was her non-reaction at seeing Sephiroth.

Like, does she not remember the events? Did she block the memory out? Was she too shocked at Barret being run through that she didn't have time to react and then she just internalised everything?
 

Mary Celeste

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,532
The singularity is "nowhere", in the sense that it's not a "real" place. You could say it's the center of a black hole - the center of the Whispers' dimension, maybe.

Whisper Harbinger is basically a personification of Destiny that the party is trying to defeat in order to get rid of predestination (aka the events of OG FFVII).
thanks for clearing that up!
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,570
Earth, 21st Century
I agree. The only thing that felt weird with Tifa for me was her non-reaction at seeing Sephiroth.

Like, does she not remember the events? Did she block the memory out? Was she too shocked at Barret being run through that she didn't have time to react and then she just internalised everything?
I think the writers just had trouble finding a time for her to react. Everything was moving so fast.

I'm not excusing the writing, I actually think that implies a problem with the way the ending sequence is framed in general. But I can see why they decided to gloss over her reaction with how breakneck everything was.

I hope we get to see some reflection from her in Kalm.
 

Sasliquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,332
Tifa is fine but also replaying the OG game they do play up the relationship with Cloud that kinda undermines her own agency
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,049
I think the writers just had trouble finding a time for her to react. Everything was moving so fast.

I'm not excusing the writing, I actually think that implies a problem with the way the ending sequence is framed in general. But I can see why they decided to gloss over her reaction with how breakneck everything was.

I hope we get to see some reflection from her in Kalm.
Maybe they saw a clone and not the "real" sephiroth.

Only saw the scene once tho.
 

Hoot

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,148
I don't think Tifa is ruined at all, but it did seem weird how she is. She's fine in a lot of places (and I love the stairs scene when she scolds Barrett and Cloud to stop being dumbasses. REAAALLY wish I could've seen more of that).

But yeah, hoping that in future parts she gets more assertive on what she wants.

Aerith tho, what a glow up. She already kinda hard those traits in the original. But time + idolation + compilation made her more of a "innocent priestess" type in the mind of people. The remake really reminds you how much she kicks ass.

If anything, I'm just veeeeery curious as to how Yuffie and god, freaking Cait Sith are gonna be. Cait Sith is such a weirdo that I wonder how that's gonna play out
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,399
Yeah, I didn't know people didn't realize Tifa was the anime sweetheart character, that's what she always read as to me. Her personality was spot on with what I expected, more than I even thought because fan headcanon tends to make her a tough as nails badass type, when she's not that personality (she just fights like a badass, lol).

Aerith was the feisty one despite being the "healer", even more so in this.
 

ABIC

Banned
Nov 19, 2017
1,170
Tifa was always the soft-spoken, considerate girl who could beat stuff up. Aerith was the one with more agency despite being the healer archetype.

It was deliberate role reversal based on their aesthetics. If anything, Tifa does more this time around than in the original. Fleshing out her character only shows that she's always been demure and supportive towards Cloud. Which I guess doesn't resonate with some people's image of her.

This was also my recollection, but Tifa is super assertive in battle (which I like very very much) and a big contrast to her non-combat behavior.
 

crimilde

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,006
I think the writers just had trouble finding a time for her to react. Everything was moving so fast.

I'm not excusing the writing, I actually think that implies a problem with the way the ending sequence is framed in general. But I can see why they decided to gloss over her reaction with how breakneck everything was.

I hope we get to see some reflection from her in Kalm.

Yeah I think you're right.
I would have been happy with even a single line or something, but as Cloud's flashback from 5 years ago doesn't necessarily show how Sephiroth affected Tifa's life, it makes sense for them to leave all that for the Kalm segment.
 

Hoot

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,148
Also I miiiight think seeing FF7 Abridged not long before the remake has warped my perception of Tifa a bit, lmao
 

LowParry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,775
I agree. The only thing that felt weird with Tifa for me was her non-reaction at seeing Sephiroth.

Like, does she not remember the events? Did she block the memory out? Was she too shocked at Barret being run through that she didn't have time to react and then she just internalised everything?

Soooo...here's a theory. We've been seeing visions from Cloud right? Would of those visions haven't happened past or present? Maybe that explains why Tifa never reacted because it didn't happen.

Or they just forgot. I dunno lol - it was really weird though when everyone see's him for the first time.
 

Deleted member 49482

User requested account closure
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Nov 8, 2018
3,302
My guess is that in the Lifestream, all knowledge is known. The Cetra could've been aware of magic that allowed time travel (or at least sending your spirit/will), but knew it was something NOBODY should mess with. It's something they never formed into Materia, but those aware of it died with its knowledge. Eventually, Sephiroth came across this knowledge and was able to send his spirit back in time.
Damn, I really like this explanation for how Sephiroth ends up with time traveling powers. We already know Sephiroth is almost like a virus that can't seem to be ridden from the lifestream. He has a strong enough will to maintain himself within the lifestream. Even after defeat in FF7/AC, it would make sense for him to still be in the lifestream absorbing knowledge over time.

Since you can see the Whispers too in Zack's timeline, my guess is that the Whispers were always there, in every timeline at the same time. That's why went to kill them in one, they die in all of them. They were a continuous presence in the multiverse, is just the fact that Aerith and Sephiroth disrupting the timeline made them visible.
I actually hadn't given it much thought, until reading your post, why exactly we see the Whispers during the Zack fight, but if you remember, the party fights them in The Singularity. I think the idea is that you're fighting them at the origin point over which they govern all time. After defeat, they are gone from all time, past, present, and future.

An interesting, related idea was thrown out on Max's stream regarding Zack. His death is one of the events that the Whispers ensure always happens as a part of his and the world's fate/destiny. Zack would never be able to escape that death, but now that the Whispers are gone, he is able to defy that aspect of his fate.

One thing I don't understand is the whole "Aerith making the portal white" thing. I suppose her messing with it is what took them to the Singularity, so they could fight the Whispers and all... but wasn't that what Sephiroth wanted in the first place? What else would he possibly try to do with his original portal he invited Cloud to go through? It's not like he wants, or even can, kill Cloud now.
My interpretation is she was simply using her magic to ensure the portal was held open while they fucked around talking.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,511
It's hard to find using Google because everything that pops up seems to be about the remake now, but I distinctly remember reading that this was the intention behind their designs.

She's shown caring about Avalanche here too, but has added scenes of doubt concerning Avalanche's activities, extra scenes worrying about Don Corneo saying the plate was going to fall (trying to convince herself it isn't true), and so on. Her self-doubt was always a thing and is on full display here. If anything, she has more depth than in the original, because she actively volunteers herself to go help Cloud at the pillar after initially staying down to help everyone else (instead of simply following him in the original), even saving him when he's in trouble. She volunteers to swing on the chandeliers in the Shinra building. Etc.

I personally like Tifa's character. But I'm not saying anyone has to like or agree with Tifa's characterization, only that it's 100% in line with how she was originally depicted, which was someone in a supportive role who cared about Cloud. Which has now been expanded into caring about others in general.

Being caring is neither here nor there in regard to the overall lack of dimension(she seemed a bit trite to me in any case). But I suppose I often look for too much. SE still has growing to do imo.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,913
Elysium
So.... I'm just curious but the hooded people are the Sephiroth clones in the original right? I was so confused the entire way through who Marco was but did Sephiroth use him to assassinate President Shinra in this? Just rewatched the scene and it looks that way. The hooded guy in sector 5 that falls.... was that a reference to this guy are sick? Man, I can't believe I caught this so late.
 

Eeyore

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Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I like how Scarlet is still blatantly evil even when she's on national television, and how little Midgar's citizens seem to care. Just how often does she go around stomping news cameramen?

Hmm seems to have some real world analogies...

So.... I'm just curious but the hooded people are the Sephiroth clones in the original right? I was so confused the entire way through who Marco was but did Sephiroth use him to assassinate President Shinra in this? Just rewatched the scene and it looks that way. The hooded guy in sector 5 that falls.... was that a reference to this guy are sick? Man, I can't believe I caught this so late.

Pretty much all of this yeah. Sephiroth's body is still in the Northern Crater until Cloud frees him I would assume.
 

Weeros

Member
Apr 11, 2020
243
So.... I'm just curious but the hooded people are the Sephiroth clones in the original right? I was so confused the entire way through who Marco was but did Sephiroth use him to assassinate President Shinra in this? Just rewatched the scene and it looks that way. The hooded guy in sector 5 that falls.... was that a reference to this guy are sick? Man, I can't believe I caught this so late.

That's it.

Basically my line of though is, Sephiroths until confrontation in front of Jenova tank are just Cloud hallucinating. They're not seen by anyone else and can't be affected by anyone (particularly the first in Chapter 2 hits this home since it's not him but the whole town changing and vanishes when Cloud tries to hit him).

From there it's first "Marco" or 49 controlled by Sephiroth/Jenova from messing the VR show until Jenova is defeated, then 2 or this guy are sick dude from the Shinra roof until the end. Although, the end, being extremely convoluted as it is, makes it super unclear. Real Sephiroth is still in the crater though and the game makes a point to actually show the clones in action so if they wanna stay consistent about that, it's gotta be this way.
 
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Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
9,387
I've never played a game with higher highs and lower lows.

The first 16 chapters were such a great time, and then it just went to crap. I'll play part 2, but not day one - will wait for it to go on sale.
 

Naar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,095
Yeah, it absolutely kills me to say this, but despite her VA being great, they absolutely butchered Tifa's character to make her into some "waifu." She's not allowed to react to stuff beyond being sad and meek (anger at Shinra beyond clenching her fist once? anger at Sephiroth? trying to keep Cloud in sector 7? nah, that's too aggressive, she just has to be sweet and understanding).

What's more, every moment where she displayed confidence or took action on her own in the original has been replaced by someone else doing it for her, and she is constantly portrayed as completely useless and in need of saving by whatever other man is in the scene. The vast majority of the time it's Cloud grabbing her and pulling out of the way of something falling even though it adds NOTHING to the scene beyond wanting to have another moment of her being completely useless, but Barret gets in on it too and they even have Leslie push her out of the way of Abzu! Leslie! Tifa can't do ANYTHING by herself in this game.

They try to pull some BS "oh she's totally empowered, go girl" by giving her two moments where she displays her strength by punching random enemies that mean nothing to the plot at all (the Eligor fight and one of the test subjects after saving Red XIII). It's like they wanted to distill her character down into a friendly shy girl trope and chopped everything else about her off. The stupid ending I can compartmentalize as stupid new stuff, but I can't ignore Tifa's characterization in the same way. It's absolutely the worst portrayal of any of the characters in the game and made me mad as it went along.

Yea she really felt off. You describing her as being some kind of waifu was really good

I loved her in the original, but not so much in the remake

nah I absolutely disagree. Tifa was really fine in this. I felt like both Aerith and Tifa were much better characters overall but obviously we can only judge by the Midgar portion.

I know you love your vii girls, but tifa as a character was horrible in remake. Nothing like in the original.

The above post I quoted mentions some of the things I didn't like about tifa in remake

Aerith though I agree, I fell more in love with her than the original
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,553
I'm starting to think there's a bigger thread in the future that ends the world. Both Sephiroth and Aerith travel to the past to save it with Sephiroth planning to tip things in his favor of course.

I fully believe they will pay off the cliffhanger in Dirge of Cerberus.
 

Weeros

Member
Apr 11, 2020
243
I'm starting to think there's a bigger thread in the future that ends the world. Both Sephiroth and Aerith travel to the past to save it with Sephiroth planning to tip things in his favor of course.

I fully believe they will pay off the cliffhanger in Dirge of Cerberus.

I think it's gonna be Emperor Palpatine. I think he might've been building these ships that can each destroy an entire planet in only 7 seconds...

Indeed. It's pretty hard not to draw connections.

Not to mention President Shinra having a whole section of Shinra's museum tour dedicated to himself and his shiny gold gun...

It's not hard to guess what was President Shinra's favorite videogame growing up.
 

Eeyore

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Dec 13, 2019
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So beating the game on hard I just went through the ending battles again, one of the things I want them to work on is not pulling the camera away during battles. The first time through, you do not know when this is going to happen and you end up wasting abilities because of it. It happens constantly with the arbiters of fate and it's distracting. Also, it seems like enemy ATB resets with fights like Reno/Rude whereas yours doesn't? That's kinda crap too.

I was told not to fall in love with her. So instead, I fell in love with Jenova.

No other boss fight or theme will ever top a Jenova fight. I mean just listen! Feel the moment.



The way it was handled was great with the different phases having the music ramp up. Also don't fall in love with an at least 2000 year old cosmic horror alien. It's not healthy...
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,913
Elysium
it's funny cause Jenova was the only boss I died to in the ending. One shot both final bosses and they even said I should have a great party with materia to tackle what is ahead. I just used what I had.... most of the game seems too easy on normal but Jenova had some one shot attack I couldn't avoid or something but then I realized you need to kill the tentacles before they do that. I was level 38 with most weapons unlocked. I'm still missing one for Cloud, 2 for Aerith, and 1 for Tifa I think and Barrett... and I explored everything....
 

Hoot

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,148
God when that Oldschool jenova tune drops too....it's SO GOOOD

I know having Jenova this early is cheap but fuck, I'm a total sucker for this shit
 

LowParry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,775
Hojo scenes were probably my favorite to watch. The pre-Jenova music goes on in the background as he plays on to his own dance and music. I mean look at this. It's just fucking perfect with his interaction with Aerith. (Sidenote: Microwave's done Hojo. Time to eat.)

 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
I was told not to fall in love with her. So instead, I fell in love with Jenova.

No other boss fight or theme will ever top a Jenova fight. I mean just listen! Feel the moment.



The only thing I don't like about the remix is the guitar, I dunno, feels out of place, also not sure about the OWA motif. Rest is sublime though.
 

asd202

Enlightened
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,886
I was told not to fall in love with her. So instead, I fell in love with Jenova.

No other boss fight or theme will ever top a Jenova fight. I mean just listen! Feel the moment.



Jenova was the best boss fight in the game and that music transition in the 3rd phase was perfection, fucking perfection. The music build up in the fight is just sooo gooood.
 

crimilde

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,006
The Shinra remixed theme when you fight Rufus is pretty dope too. Who am I kidding, all the tracks are great.

 
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
I beat the game earlier and I kinda love what they did with the ending. Like not entirely the execution of it, but it's really fucking bold at the very least and I prefer it to just a retread of the original.
 

Deleted member 49482

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Nov 8, 2018
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I think I finally figured out the worst thing about FF7R being a requel rather than an exact remake of FF7. Now I'm going to want to read/watch/play all of the parts of the Compilation of FF7.

I haven't played any of the other games, or even watched Advent Children. I'm going to lose a piece of my soul if I delve into the entire Complication, aren't I?
 

Nakenorm

"This guy are sick"
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
22,836
Imagine not liking Tifa in the remake
source.gif


She (and Aerith) Saves Cloud multiple times. And Cloud has the amount of respect to let her go and handle Corneo on her own, until Aerith persuade him to do the opposite. She's shown to be an absolute badass in multiple scenes. Sure, she's shown to be conflicted and not entirely sure on the outcome of their mission, but that doesn't make her a bad character, just shows that she's kind and considerate - just like in the original.
 

Deleted member 5596

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I think it's a good fine balance of all things. That underline bass though is so good. You also get a small portion of OWA during it to which is great.

While I liked the music, I feel it often when overboard with the orchestration. I wish they took the change to be more diverse in style, specially JENOVA quickening is perfect for a epic synthwave remix. But oh well...just nitpicking.

Well, maybe for FFVIII Remake:
 
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