eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
What is the maths behind that opinion? Surely the 'short squeeze' (if it actually happens), means GME still has a lot of potential.

I thought AMC was basically hindered because they liquidated more shares?

I was a believer in Nokia and BB for the long haul anyway but if they rocket in the short term ill be happy haha.
the math is prity simple gme isnt worth its market cap, and it turns out given how few gme shares are out there (about 70 million) it was easy for a group(in this case wsb) to catch a few over exposed hedge funds and put the squeze on them. at some point sonew, its guna crash down. when I dont know, but it will be sooner than later.
 

japtor

Member
Jan 19, 2018
1,152
AMC was only $6 or so before the pandemic. There's been a lot of problems for a long time with them and the industry. Even saying it collapses to $10 is Summer 2019 levels.
I'm semi expecting some irrational market exuberance to keep it inflated depending on COVID/vaccine/openings this year. Plus recently they like raised a billion which already propped them up before things got crazy, and can now cash out a bit for more while the stock is high.

(...not that I'm long on AMC, I'm only jumping back in a little if it dips hoping for another pop)
Do Nokia and Black Berry pay dividends? I'm thinking about holding them or a long time but I don't want to deal with tax shenanigans every couple of months.
I'm not seeing anything for either. Not sure about tax shenanigans every couple months, just that it's extra income every quarter? On E*TRADE at least they just provide annual tax documents before tax season. I'm down with the extra money...but I guess I could see the annoyance if it's only for a few dollars/cents.
If you are new to investing, please don't listen to anyone telling you to do options or look at derivatives just yet. You're asking for a world of trouble. Just buy wholesale stock and hold onto it.

Also, please do not invest what you can't stand to lose. I've seen people say they've dropped their life savings and rent/grocery money into this trying to get money. That's the wrong way to go about it.
Re: options, one example from a few pages ago:
Be careful with debit spreads on GME .
 

Deleted member 2379

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Oct 25, 2017
1,739
The volume doesn't match with shorts they say are covered. Gonna be a lot of misinformation going around tomorrow I bet.

don't need shares to cover. Long calls that expire in the money will do. The early shorts covered mid last week.

the short squeeze died on Tuesday. The rest of the time has been hedge funds playing with each other.

my concern from the beginning is retail left holding the bag and when institutional vol dries up price will be back slightly higher than it started.

despite what WSB thinks, they are playing a different game.
 

Deleted member 81119

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8,308
don't need shares to cover. Long calls that expire in the money will do. The early shorts covered mid last week.

the short squeeze died on Tuesday. The rest of the time has been hedge funds playing with each other.

my concern from the beginning is retail left holding the bag and when institutional vol dries up price will be back slightly higher than it started.

despite what WSB thinks, they are playing a different game.
I wonder whether the increase in price for the whole of Friday was not just WSB successfully holding the price...but Wall Street buying the stock to cover their shorts throughout the day. Instead of one short squeeze, a day-long squeeze around the $400 level.

Either way, whether the squeeze has happened yet or not, WSB have already won.
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
877
I wonder whether the increase in price for the whole of Friday was not just WSB successfully holding the price...but Wall Street buying the stock to cover their shorts throughout the day. Instead of one short squeeze, a day-long squeeze around the $400 level.

Either way, whether the squeeze has happened yet or not, WSB have already won.

If by "won" you mean setting up an army of retail bagholders, then yes, the initial WSB crowd has won.
 

Deleted member 2379

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I wonder whether the increase in price for the whole of Friday was not just WSB successfully holding the price...but Wall Street buying the stock to cover their shorts throughout the day. Instead of one short squeeze, a day-long squeeze around the $400 level.

Either way, whether the squeeze has happened yet or not, WSB have already won.

They killed Melvin but none of them are taking gains which is the worst option. Can't spend unrealized gain and every sale needs a buyer and a price match.

lot of options expired on Friday. Any risk manager worth their salt would have been long ITm calls and short outs for expiration Friday. This would wipe out the short interest and take it down without the outright purchasing.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,383
I can't possibly imagine AMC rocketing above $100 unless the shorts out on it have bonkers interest and the deadline is imminent. $50 is the pipe dream, but even then I expect something like $30 max. It's lower risk and lower reward than GME, which is already in another completely crazy stratosphere with its price even right now.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
The volume doesn't match with shorts they say are covered. Gonna be a lot of misinformation going around tomorrow I bet.
Some one more familiar with this will have to verify, but aren't synthetic positions uncounted in the volume statistics? Isn't that how Porsche was almost able to stealth takeover VW?

The general concept behind the squeeze makes sense but it seems like there is a possibility of some shell games being played at the moment that we might not fully be aware of.
 

Deleted member 81119

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If by "won" you mean setting up an army of retail bagholders, then yes, the initial WSB crowd has won.
I think most people who are involved with this went in with the aim of costing some Wall Street traders many billions of dollars, with the hope they might make profit from it as a side benefit. You yourself said this a few days ago. So that's the sense I think WSB have won.

But unfortunately now there are lots of people hoping this will be a get rich quick scheme to turn their life around and it's just not :(
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
877
I think most people who are involved with this went in with the aim of costing some Wall Street traders many billions of dollars, with the hope they might make profit from it as a side benefit. You yourself said this a few days ago. So that's the sense I think WSB have won.

But unfortunately now there are lots of people hoping this will be a get rich quick scheme to turn their life around and it's just not :(

I've been a member on WSB for years and was 100% on board with the initial crew of old timers taking down a poorly positioned hedge fund by incinerating some of their play money. It's fucking awesome in fact.

What I'm absolutely not fine with is the number of people I now see here and elsewhere posting asking "how do I buy stock" and then "how much will it go up by"? These people are gonna get steam rolled.
 

Skyzar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,539
don't need shares to cover. Long calls that expire in the money will do. The early shorts covered mid last week.

the short squeeze died on Tuesday. The rest of the time has been hedge funds playing with each other.

my concern from the beginning is retail left holding the bag and when institutional vol dries up price will be back slightly higher than it started.

despite what WSB thinks, they are playing a different game.

Were there enough long calls available to cover their shorts or a significant chunk?

Also why do you think the institutions with the stock haven't sold out yet?
 

Merc

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,264
I am no expert. From what I have been reading it seems GME has the potential to continue to go up and perhaps something extraordinary like $1K a share or higher. Maybe not but it has potential given 120% of its total shares is being shorted.

However, I am really unclear on AMC. Some people are saying not much of AMC or not as much of it is being shorted. And AMC just restructured their debt and issued a ton more shares making it highly difficult to squeeze like GME. Yet there is a huge drive to AMC. I think there is a ton of appeal for AMC given its cheap stock price but it may not fly. Not sure though. Does anyone know how much AMC is being shorted?

I think GME can be the real deal. I am very cautious on AMC, and as always everyone do not put yourself in debt and make careful decisions with your finances.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,243
What I'm absolutely not fine with is the number of people I now see here and elsewhere posting asking "how do I buy stock" and then "how much will it go up by"? These people are gonna get steam rolled.
EQhqgsVUEAAYxTK.jpg


While I'm getting everything set up to jump into the game at some point, I haven't spent a penny yet, and I won't touch GME with a ten foot pole at this point. It's what, 20-30x higher than it was a month or so ago? The fun is over, now is the worst time to jump in, IMO.

I'm loosely eyeballing AMC, but not for a GME type of jump. If I can get it to double, I'll be happy.

Another thing I'm not thrilled seeing is people dumping money into this that can't afford it, hoping to make a quick buck. Yeah, I'm hoping to make a quick buck, too, but I've already set aside the cash and it won't affect my normal expenditures. Skipping a mortgage payment to buy GME? You're a dumbass.
 

Deleted member 46804

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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
I've been a member on WSB for years and was 100% on board with the initial crew of old timers taking down a poorly positioned hedge fund by incinerating some of their play money. It's fucking awesome in fact.

What I'm absolutely not fine with is the number of people I now see here and elsewhere posting asking "how do I buy stock" and then "how much will it go up by"? These people are gonna get steam rolled.
No need to not be fine with that. This is true every fucking time an investment takes off like this. People who were lucky enough to get in need to take their profit soon because this shit is coming down to $20 a share or less real soon. People buying in now to GME are nuts.
 

fallingedge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,855
AMC already went from ~$2 earlier this month to $20 this past week. It ended trading around $13 on Friday. Amateur af TA could see AMC end this week around $20-$25 assuming support and a bullish run. Bearish puts it around 4-7. I expect GME/AMC and among others to be extremely volatile with wild swings either way. Trade at your own risk.
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
For anyone still trying to jump in on $GME, be aware that a significant amount of the short interest has been covered:


Seemingly unbiased source, was reporting accurate numbers last week.
Yeah, this is what the shady shit on Thursday was about. The question is *how* significant.

(I know people say "it wasn't as shady as it looked, Robinhood ran out of liquidity, etc etc", but the easiest way to cheat is to create an artificial crisis -- perhaps if you're Robinhood's financial backstop, to hem and haw about liquidity -- and then sit on your hands and watch it unfold. The timing was *impeccable*. People should go to jail, but they won't)
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
I haven't paid much attention to this shit at all but I can't say I like how many people are telling me they're trying to get in on the "free money train" etc over the past few days. These are people who don't know anything about the stock market but I guess they heard something about how the little guys are fighting back against the big hedge funds and making millions overnight by doing it. I'm getting asked how to invest in it because they know I have a bunch of money in the stock market (in target-date retirement index funds). Hopefully I tempered their expectations because it sure seems like some of them were about to take a big financial risk based mostly on hype and memes...
 

Deleted member 2379

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How realistic is it to expect AMC stock to skyrocket to 100+?

AMC's debtholder converted their $600M of second lien to equity (thus delevering the Company by $600M) and then sold all of that position to the market for around $500M. That debt was essentially worthless and they converted it to $500M by selling at prices between $15 - 25. They two stepped their way out of a zero, helped the company and made a ton of money based on the fact that the stock had no reason to be that price.

Take it for what its worth, but they got out as quick as they could based on an irrational price.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Wait... so I still have $100 on Robinhood, should I just go in on AMC? Or no?
Tradings restricted on that and the other meme stocks, plus a bunch of other stocks.
AMC's debtholder converted their $600M of second lien to equity (thus delevering the Company by $600M) and then sold all of that position to the market for around $500M. That debt was essentially worthless and they converted it to $500M by selling at prices between $15 - 25. They two stepped their way out of a zero, helped the company and made a ton of money based on the fact that the stock had no reason to be that price.

Take it for what its worth, but they got out as quick as they could based on an irrational price.
It's not like they know how irrational the buying is gonna be or predicted that retail investors could send things as far as they did.
 

Deleted member 2379

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah, this is what the shady shit on Thursday was about. The question is *how* significant.

(I know people say "it wasn't as shady as it looked, Robinhood ran out of liquidity, etc etc", but the easiest way to cheat is to create an artificial crisis -- perhaps if you're Robinhood's financial backstop, to hem and haw about liquidity -- and then sit on your hands and watch it unfold. The timing was *impeccable*. People should go to jail, but they won't)

Easiest way to get yourself out of a terrible short is to buy a call and keep it ITM through expiration. They should have had the calls to begin with but they didn't.

You wouldn't see this clear until those options expire Friday.
 

Zachary_Games

Member
Jul 31, 2020
2,991
The biggest risk was a liquidity crisis at a broker who didn't have the cash to post the required collateral to the DTCC which would have potentially led to an immediate BK filing and a test of the post-2008 broker failure mechanics on if the collateral from the rest of the market was enough to not require a full unwinding of all positions and a test of the SIPC backstop on retail investors.

RH and a bunch of other brokers did not have the capital to meet the unforseen collateral calls.

There is no conspiracy here. I would rather not have to post all of the articles laying out exactly how this works, but the jacking up of collateral by $6B on Thursday AM happened and was confirmed by the DTCC itself.

The conspiracy that this was some plan to help bail out a bunch of hedge funds was driven by people who do not understand A) how the market works and trades clear and B) what Citadel's actual relationship with RH is. It's a conspiracy that is all. Not sure how else to explain it. RH was not trying to save hedge funds it was facing a complete failure which would have rippled through the market.

Their poor communication is because they can't announce that they have a liquidity crisis without making it 100x worse. They raised $1B in cash on Thursday just to survive.

The early short hedge funds had already closed out their positions anyway. The shorts got eaten by other hedge funds who smelled blood. They were the volume not retail.

I'd love it if you could explain to me why I'm wrong. I've tired of explaining it to people who don't understand how the market works and just throw conspiracies at the wall.

Lay out for me the connections to RH and other brokers halting purchase on behalf of hedge funds and I'm happy to walk through why each point is wrong.

I appreciate you taking the time to articulate all of this. You definitely have greater knowledge of this than I do.

However, I do not believe in the conspiracy. Mostly everything you are posting I agree with. I do not think there was any nefarious conspiracy behind the scenes, but I do believe there were time critical mistakes made, which I will talk about next.

The things we disagree on is Vlad lying numerous of times on national TV about liquidity. He messed up the narrative and deserves all the heat he gets. Even though I sympathize since the situation was unprecedented. I also maintain RH should have halted all trades, buys and sells, since what happened was unprecedented. There are rules, then there are exceptions.

Lastly, I believe the whole systems deserves all the scrutiny it is under. From the federal reserve, to the SEC, to Wall Street, and all these brokerages that pretend they give a shit about the retail investor, when all their business model is about selling their data to big firms.

I know posting in this thread is probably frustrating as all hell, but what is happening is bigger than finances. People don't give a shit about the system when the system is set up to serve the big institutions. Keep on posting, your knowledge isn't going on deaf ears.
 

Deleted member 2379

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Tradings restricted on that and the other meme stocks, plus a bunch of other stocks.

It's not like they know how irrational the buying is gonna be or predicted that retail investors could send things as far as they did.

As the debtholder looking at a zero and forced into an equity convert because the business won't survive without it, they know that means the equity was essentially worth zero. Once they converted their were out of their position in under a week. They know the price has no bearing.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
As the debtholder looking at a zero and forced into an equity convert because the business won't survive without it, they know that means the equity was essentially worth zero. Once they converted their were out of their position in under a week. They know the price has no bearing.
Whether the price has no bearing has no bearing on whether there will be enough hype to exceed it. You're trying to apply too much logic to hype-buying which in itself can drive up price and induce more hype buying and FOMO. FTR I bought 1 share of AMC for giggles, so basically zero skin.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,931
The biggest risk was a liquidity crisis at a broker who didn't have the cash to post the required collateral to the DTCC which would have potentially led to an immediate BK filing and a test of the post-2008 broker failure mechanics on if the collateral from the rest of the market was enough to not require a full unwinding of all positions and a test of the SIPC backstop on retail investors.

RH and a bunch of other brokers did not have the capital to meet the unforseen collateral calls.

There is no conspiracy here. I would rather not have to post all of the articles laying out exactly how this works, but the jacking up of collateral by $6B on Thursday AM happened and was confirmed by the DTCC itself.

The conspiracy that this was some plan to help bail out a bunch of hedge funds was driven by people who do not understand A) how the market works and trades clear and B) what Citadel's actual relationship with RH is. It's a conspiracy that is all. Not sure how else to explain it. RH was not trying to save hedge funds it was facing a complete failure which would have rippled through the market.

Their poor communication is because they can't announce that they have a liquidity crisis without making it 100x worse. They raised $1B in cash on Thursday just to survive.

The early short hedge funds had already closed out their positions anyway. The shorts got eaten by other hedge funds who smelled blood. They were the volume not retail.

I'd love it if you could explain to me why I'm wrong. I've tired of explaining it to people who don't understand how the market works and just throw conspiracies at the wall.

Lay out for me the connections to RH and other brokers halting purchase on behalf of hedge funds and I'm happy to walk through why each point is wrong.

If it's any consolation, I've been reading your posts and appreciating your take. I'm not a very active trader, I mostly put what I have after 401k contributions in safe stuff, but your explanations have been interesting and informative and your patience to try to have an even keeled take admirable. Hell, I trade via an eTrade account I think i opened in 2005, I'm not exactly Ms YOLO when it comes to stocks.

I dabbled in this GME thing for a bit of 'fun', but with the philosophy of only using money I'd be okay losing. I put buys in for Monday, but with a limit below the current ask just to see if something gets nabbed in one of these frequent dips (and again, with money I can afford to lose) since I don't expect a collapse tomorrow, but not expecting the WSB rocket fest. I do worry that the afterword to this whole affair will involve a lot of people who got swept up in the rush. At least with straight gambling, when you lose, you lose fast and there's no expectation that you can just hold longer to get it back.
 

Deleted member 2379

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Oct 25, 2017
1,739
I appreciate you taking the time to articulate all of this. You definitely have greater knowledge of this than I do.

However, I do not believe in the conspiracy. Mostly everything you are posting I agree with. I do not think there was any nefarious conspiracy behind the scenes, but I do believe there were time critical mistakes made, which I will talk about next.

The things we disagree on is Vlad lying numerous of times on national TV about liquidity. He messed up the narrative and deserves all the heat he gets. Even though I sympathize since the situation was unprecedented. I also maintain RH should have halted all trades, buys and sells, since what happened was unprecedented. There are rules, then there are exceptions.

Lastly, I believe the whole systems deserves all the scrutiny it is under. From the federal reserve, to the SEC, to Wall Street, and all these brokerages that pretend they give a shit about the retail investor, when all their business model is about selling their data to big firms.

I know posting in this thread is probably frustrating as all hell, but what is happening is bigger than finances. People don't give a shit about the system when the system is set up to serve the big institutions. Keep on posting, your knowledge isn't going on deaf ears.

Appreciate the kind words.

When the DTCC announced the recalculated collateral required for GME and other stocks it essentially sent a shockwave through the broker channel. It shouldn't have as the calculation is generally known and can change exponentially based on volatility, but still no one expected the collateral requirements for the DTCC to increase by 30% in total ($7B and this would be mostly tied to the stocks in question as the rest of the market wasn't moving). Brokers have to put this collateral up out of their own pockets which means cash and a lot of it. The major brokers didn't really have as many issues here although they did restrict some based on not wanting to have to put it up.

When this happened, RH was essentially DOA. They were in a liquidity crisis and on the verge of going insolvent if they kept going the way they did. The quickest way to not have to put up that collateral was stopping purchases. Stopping purchases will lower the volume and deposits you have to make, while letting your customers sell their stock if they want to get out. Thus, you are allowing your customers to exit their positions if they aren't comfortable and all you are doing is preventing them from committing more capital. This is the safest way to do it. Preventing customer from selling their position opens you up to a ton of lawsuits, its hard to prove that unrealized gains from purchases at a time has any standing.

If RH stopped all buying and selling this wouldn't have made a difference as RH was just one very tiny part of the volume trading GME. The stock continued to trade without their retail shares. Halting buying and selling means that you are setting your customers up for a worse time by locking their capital up in a potentially losing situation.

While this was going on they raised $1B in cash from lenders and existing equityholders. This would prevent them from possibly failing and having a much more significant risk to their customers and market.

If he went on TV and claimed they had a liquidity crisis, they would immediately have a much worse problem as you would have a run on the bank. Think back to if your bank was going under and you had no backstop, what would you do, you would pull all your money out which would make the problem 100x worse. They couldn't admit the issue until they were clear because it would be a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's why Lehman and Bear didn't have liquidity crisis until they did.

Regarding government regulations, the DTCC collateral requirements and the net capital requirements for brokers that RH had to abide by were actually revamped and set as part of the post 2008 Dodd-Frank to try and reduce counterparty risk and having to unwind trades. The crisis as RH was actually driven by a meme stock with too much volatility and government regulations. If the SEC wasn't requiring the higher net capital requirements and the new collateral calculations wasn't setup so that all parties in the market (not even in the trade) had some skin in the game, you wouldn't have had this issue. It's one of the reasons why the politicians (other than AOC who knows nothing about how this works) changed their tune once the details started to filter out. Its tough to argue for more regulation on brokers when the regulations caused the issued at the broker in the first place (even if they help prevent a total meltdown).
 

Enforcer

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,967
Whether you're a believer or a nonbeliever, WSB almost has 8 million subscribers. That's crazy. With red futures and brokers still actively trying to limit buys, I think I have my answer for tomorrow.
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,739
If it's any consolation, I've been reading your posts and appreciating your take. I'm not a very active trader, I mostly put what I have after 401k contributions in safe stuff, but your explanations have been interesting and informative and your patience to try to have an even keeled take admirable. Hell, I trade via an eTrade account I think i opened in 2005, I'm not exactly Ms YOLO when it comes to stocks.

I dabbled in this GME thing for a bit of 'fun', but with the philosophy of only using money I'd be okay losing. I put buys in for Monday, but with a limit below the current ask just to see if something gets nabbed in one of these frequent dips (and again, with money I can afford to lose) since I don't expect a collapse tomorrow, but not expecting the WSB rocket fest. I do worry that the afterword to this whole affair will involve a lot of people who got swept up in the rush. At least with straight gambling, when you lose, you lose fast and there's no expectation that you can just hold longer to get it back.

Thanks!

I'm good with your approach on it.

My only concerns is the people who don't know what they are doing and are risking more than they should in something they don't understand.

WSB turned the attention on a stock and other hedge funds piled in to eat a short who had no risk management. The smart money knows what it is doing and they will not get burned here. All trading now is between HFs and they won't be the one holding the bag because they know when to fold up and take gains.

I just see too many people throwing money at this expecting something to happen when the most likely thing to happen in the near term is a drop to $20/share before you can sell. The moment the switch flips you are at the mercy of finding someone else to buy your position.
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
877
Whether you're a believer or a nonbeliever, WSB almost has 8 million subscribers. That's crazy. With red futures and brokers still actively trying to limit buys, I think I have my answer for tomorrow.

This has actually hugely bummed me out since WSB used to be 90% garbage but 10% interesting actual deep analysis that I learned a lot from. It got worse over the past year or so, and with the explosion of members in the past week is now relegated to just another meme image board like the rest of reddit.
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,985
AMC's debtholder converted their $600M of second lien to equity (thus delevering the Company by $600M) and then sold all of that position to the market for around $500M. That debt was essentially worthless and they converted it to $500M by selling at prices between $15 - 25. They two stepped their way out of a zero, helped the company and made a ton of money based on the fact that the stock had no reason to be that price.

Take it for what its worth, but they got out as quick as they could based on an irrational price.

I mean if I had $500-600 million in debt I'd have wiped it away while I had the chance as well. That's too much skin in the game, so I understand not risking playing with the volatility even if hypothetically the stock goes up further. It pays to be more straight-laced in a business sense.

For those of us not part of a corporation with debt, with less skin in the game, or waiting to get in, I understand the wait and see approach.

Both answers might be correct.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,853
What was the stock at just before reddit noticed and started buying?

Wealthsimple has a 15 minute delay on information. Does that fuck up buy/sell prices or are they still accurate and it's just the charts you should watch else where?

Using wealthsimple if you do a limit buy for 10 shares at $20 will that order sit there until the stock hits $20 or less? If say after two weeks the stock hasn't dropped low enough to complete the order can you just cancel it to recover your money?

Is the wealthsimple three day wait time only for your first deposit or every deposit?
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
877

"This would be definitive proof of illegal activity at the highest levels of the financial system." based on analysis that includes a guesstimate of share ownership based on the number of subscribers of WSB. Come on man, this is some qanon level nonsense.