But my point still stands. Leffen blew a Hero out against an opponent around his skill level. I don't believe Hero is a proven factor at a competative level.
If he gets proven to be game-breaking, even after a bit of patching, then sure, but until then this ban is premature.Hes also a brand new character so I don't think its a good representation of what the character can do. Like I posted before the player ranked 27th in the world is on a mission to prove a point so we'll see how that goes, including the grand finals of their last local being a Hero ditto that ended in a 0% thwack.
If he gets proven to game-breaking, even after a bit of patching, then sure, but until then this ban is premature.
That mechanics not really random though, you just tap an attack button in time with the attacks in the fatal blow, you can practise it, its the same timings for both players.There is a weird thing I have noticed in the FGC (possibly other eports but I can not say) that they love their numbers. This move does x damage, this move is this many frames, this hitbox ends exactly here.
SonicFox had a poll up a week back or so about the recovery mechanic is MK11 because there is a nuance that some do not know about and he only found out a week before EVO that can have someone survive or die by the same Fatal Blow depending on how many "skulls" or "shields" you get and he was of the notion that NRS should make you able to turn off that randomness. I personally love a random aspect in FGC competition because it can make for a big moment (though at the same time I hate comeback mechanics) but a large number agreed with him.
SO I can see why some would hate the mechanic on Hero but I love it.
Everything I'm saying comes from the perspective of a foreign language student and someone who has to work in both English and Japanese as his job.I'm sorry but the idea that one can't memorise 21 different words in a few nights is preposterous. Any foreign language student will tell you so.
Ok, I have a solution:
Memorise what the spells look like.
I'm not asking you to learn Japanese. Neither learn hiragana & katakana (which is possible in less than a week). I'm saying you should make 21 flash cards and spend an evening memorising them.
If you are traveling to an international tournament it is your onus to know what your character works, looks and sounds like in that region. The Smash community being so averse to adaptation is stupid.
Equally funny when fighting games already require a ton of memorization and pattern recognition.
Anyone dedicated to learning Hero at a competitive level can probably expend the effort it takes to learn the names of all of Hero's spells in another language.
I've taken Japanese classes. Hell I've studied vocab on my own. You're making a big deal out of nothing. It would take a week tops to memorize those words. If you're determined to go to another country where they don't speak your language, that's on you. It's the same with controller mapping. Nothing is wrong if you're going to an entirely different country with an entirely different language to compete with said native residents, and speakers.
All of these arguments completely ignore the point I was making. Unlike any other aspect in Smash, you can practice memorizing the spell names as long as you want, and there's an almost 0% chance that you'll be better at the thing you were practicing than your opponent if they're native in the language. They have 20+ years of experience that you don't. That's the main issue, and the issue is made worse when you consider two points: every frame is important, and the one maining Hero might be your opponent, not you.Yep. I've played on Japanese setups in Smash Wii U and you bet I memorized what stuff was for button config since my controls weren't the default. I don't see this as a problem at all.
I agree that anybody dedicated enough to travel internationally in a game that doesn't pay well is probably dedicated enough to learn a few vocab words.
While I may not agree, I can see that the advantage has been acknowledged, and the opinion of this poster is "oh well, get over it" lolBig deal if Hero has his commands in another language. Suck it up and deal with it. Again in sport there's something called a home advantage. Dozens of people travel every week for a team to play on a pitch with a different terrain, different atmosphere, weather conditions, referee etc etc. Do we really want everything to be so "fair"?! If the players know multiple languages they can communicate in that language, and others won't understand them. It's called having an advantage.
The menu spells do include kanji, actually. Not many, but it's not only hiragana and katakana.It's not Kanji, it's Hiragana and Katakana. Their basic alphabet. Nothing in the menu is listed in Kanji I believe.
This is the equivalent of PAL Melee players having to adapt to NTSC Melee when they come over for EVO because of the differences in knockback and damage Nintendo implemented when iterating on the game. Surprise, European players often have NTSC setups precisely to practice for when they have to compete across the Atlantic. Learning to adapt is part of being competitive.All of these arguments completely ignore the point I was making. Unlike any other aspect in Smash, you can practice memorizing the spell names as long as you want, and there's an almost 0% chance that you'll be better at the thing you were practicing than your opponent if they're native in the language. They have 20+ years of experience that you don't. That's the main issue, and the issue is made worse when you consider two points: every frame is important, and the one maining Hero might be your opponent, not you.
Seriously. Turn on all items and use all stages.
I'm just gonna assume this means you don't mind the inherent advantage of being a native speaker. I would never equate trying to read a language as fast as a native speaker to "learning a matchup."This is the equivalent of PAL Melee players having to adapt to NTSC Melee when they come over for EVO because of the differences in knockback and damage Nintendo implemented when iterating on the game. Surprise, European players often have NTSC setups precisely to practice for when they have to compete across the Atlantic. Learning to adapt is part of being competitive.
Again, learn your matchups.
So what do we do about football players from Latin America, Africa, or Asia, who then get contracted by big European clubs? Do you think they have translators accompany them during training sessions or even football matches themselves? Do you think referees are trained to communicate with them in their respective native languages? Of course not, those players have to learn the language of the country they are going to, or at least basic English for international matches.I'm just gonna assume this means you don't mind the inherent advantage of being a native speaker. I would never equate trying to read a language as fast as a native speaker to "learning a matchup."
Honestly, it might not end up being that big of a deal if the person who said most countries play in English is to be believed. But with Evo having so many Japanese players and 3 of them in the top 8, the clear disadvantage is not something that should be ignored, in my opinion.
All of these arguments completely ignore the point I was making. Unlike any other aspect in Smash, you can practice memorizing the spell names as long as you want, and there's an almost 0% chance that you'll be better at the thing you were practicing than your opponent if they're native in the language. They have 20+ years of experience that you don't. That's the main issue, and the issue is made worse when you consider two points: every frame is important, and the one maining Hero might be your opponent, not you.
If you think that's fine, that's your opinion, but if you're ignoring that point, than your argument is incomplete. You gotta at least mention it.
No, that's a terrible idea.
Hell nah it's not sarcasm. Smash is at its best when you got to contend with giant ass mallets, lightsabers, and Airwing carpet bombings in the middle of a combo.No, that's a terrible idea.
I sincerely hope this post is sarcasm, considering how the last time Nintendo hosted an online event with items on and bad stages they got universally derided.
Hell nah it's not sarcasm. Smash is at its best when you got to contend with giant ass mallets, lightsabers, and Airwing carpet bombings in the middle of a combo.
OK, that's fine and all, but that sort of stuff has no place in serious competitions.Hell nah it's not sarcasm. Smash is at its best when you got to contend with giant ass mallets, lightsabers, and Airwing carpet bombings in the middle of a combo.
Hmm, I can't say I know much about that situation, but it doesn't sound like an equivalent comparison to me. These players are entering a completely different environment as their permanent job where they're constantly surrounded by a different language, right? So it'd be more like Zero or MKLeo becoming a professional Smash player in the US.So what do we do about football players from Latin America, Africa, or Asia, who then get contracted by big European clubs? Do you think they have translators accompany them during training sessions or even football matches themselves? Do you think referees are trained to communicate with them in their respective native languages? Of course not, those players have to learn the language of the country they are going to, or at least basic English for international matches.
Part of being a professional is accomodating to the environment you are working with. Smash players want to be treated like a serious eSport, but still want to be babied when stuff gets too hard for them. It's ridiculous.
I wouldn't agree with it not being an issue, but I think it's fair to be of that opinion.I don't really think it's an issue because it's something you can train for even if it's difficult for some people.
And like someone pointed out earlier, you could just memorize the MP values.
Hell nah it's not sarcasm. Smash is at its best when you got to contend with giant ass mallets, lightsabers, and Airwing carpet bombings in the middle of a combo.
I wouldn't agree with it not being an issue, but I think it's fair to be of that opinion.
And I responded to that post about MP values. That's not a viable strategy because you have to highlight the skill to see the MP value first, it's not always displayed.
Yeah, what you're saying makes sense, and in fact, having shortcuts to understand the spells would probably be ideal. My point is that a player can "put in the time," but no matter how much time they give it, they're still probably going to be worse at reading the spells than their opponent if the game isn't in the player's native language.Fair, but I do think it's not unreasonable to have people memorize a few characters of the spells. You only need to recognize it at a glance, not necessarily be able to read the whole thing every time if that makes sense.
I just think if you're dedicated enough to travel internationally in a game that pays little money, I think they would be willing to put in the time.
Some players in traditional fighting games have more difficulties doing controller motions on the left side of the screen or vice versa while others don't. It can be a difficult thing to overcome muscle memory if you're naturally better at one side than the other.Yeah, what you're saying makes sense, and in fact, having shortcuts to understand the spells would probably be ideal. My point is that a player can "put in the time," but no matter how much time they give it, they're still probably going to be worse at reading the spells than their opponent if the game isn't in the player's native language.
Speed reading ability, possibly in multiple languages, has never been a skill tested in fighting games (as far as I know), so it's worth discussing whether it has a negative effect on competition.
So ok, apparently you fuckers will not shut up about this to the point where you will all harrass a person in real life up to and including throwing food, dirt, and drinks in my face for asking to play as him. How do you suggest we "fix" the character for him to not be bannable? Or will I just have to "suck it up" whenever I dare try and enjoy a game?
Okay, so after seeing what more people had to say about Hero, I've come around to agreeing with the ban on Hero
Look at this:
He gets a kill at 25% and the menu was open for literally a split-second. Nobody, not even the guy playing Hero had time to read it, he just picked the first option and hoped that it would do something beneficial for him.
Of course, there's no way to pull this off consistently, but that's part of the problem. There's no way to react to this, or any means of countering it. You can't predict what your opponent is going to do because even they don't always know what's going to happen, you just have to cross your fingers and hope that the dice roll doesn't screw you over, and I don't think that has any place in a competitive game.
So ok, apparently you fuckers will not shut up about this to the point where you will all harrass a person in real life up to and including throwing food, dirt, and drinks in my face for asking to play as him. How do you suggest we "fix" the character for him to not be bannable? Or will I just have to "suck it up" whenever I dare try and enjoy a game?
Hero isn't getting banned/discussed because he's OP. Stop using that as a reason to mock smashers, because that's not what is being argued.
I don't agree on an immediate ban. Let him free for a few weeks/months, then let's discuss his place on the meta and if he should be banned.
Okay, so after seeing what more people had to say about Hero, I've come around to agreeing with the ban on Hero
Look at this:
Ah but cherry picking a random Twitter clip now that is totally okayKeef missing the point, and he agrees with the language barrier problem so people are just cherry picking specific parts of someones opinion that lines up with their own even if they're mostly known for being a comedy Youtuber.
Ah but cherry picking a random Twitter clip now that is totally okay
The problem is that you also that you cherry picked as well.Keef missing the point, and he agrees with the language barrier problem so people are just cherry picking specific parts of someones opinion that lines up with their own even if they're mostly known for being a comedy Youtuber.
And if I bring out supporting evidence of Twitter clips where Hero fucks up that's not evidence but cherry picking I guess, so long as it's convenient right?There are plenty of clips from good players that demonstrate the types of issues being discussed. Supporting evidence is not cherry picking.
I don't think anyone is scoffing at the chance it could happen in the future, we're criticizing the decision to jump the gun before we even have enough data to make a conclusionI agree 100%
just disagree with everyone scoffing at the possibility. Have to wonder if the "in sports" comparisons are copy pasta or serious sometimes.
And if I bring out supporting evidence of Twitter clips where Hero fucks up that's cherry picking too I guess
I don't think anyone is scoffing at the chance it could happen in the future, we're criticizing the decision to jump the gun before we even have enough data to make a conclusion
Clips without context are literally the most useless and dumb type of anecdotal evidenceThere are plenty of clips from good players that demonstrate the types of issues being discussed. Supporting evidence is not cherry picking.
Clips without context are literally the most useless and dumb type of anecdotal evidence
What type of record do the players have against each other or other players in the scene? Saying both are "good players" is meaningless because there are plenty of "good players" who could face a player like MKLeo and be bodied every single time. Just because both are good doesn't mean there wasn't already a skill gap.What type of context would be sufficient for you? They have been explained as scenarios that took place in tournament matches between good players.
What type of record do the players have against each other or other players in the scene? Saying both are "good players" is meaningless because there are plenty of "good players" who could face a player like MKLeo and be bodied every single time. Just because both are good doesn't mean there wasn't already a skill gap.
Did the Hero player win the set because of cheese? Being able to steal a game on rare occasions is meaningless if they couldn't win the set with such strats, because winning one game in a tournament means literally nothing
Would the Hero player have definitely lost the set if not for the cheese?
My point is that their anecdotal and lack context. MKLeo can body most "good players" with Joker but you can't take a clip of MKLeo bodying someone and use it to argue Joker is broken with no other evidence and not expect to be laughed at as a scrub. And again, did they lose the set to shenanigans, or just a single game?Calling clips the dumbest evidence and then invoking the top ranked player being able to body someone? um...
I already quoted Puppeh debunking the fools who claiming the people losing were nobodies. You can watch said interactions and decide for yourself if they're appropriate or fair in a competitive setting, and imo fuck no they're not.
My point is that their anecdotal and lack context. MKLeo can body most "good players" with Joker but you can't take a clip of MKLeo bodying someone and use it to argue Joker is broken with no other evidence and not expect to be laughed at as a scrub. And again, did they lose the set to shenanigans, or just a single game?
What type of record do the players have against each other or other players in the scene? Saying both are "good players" is meaningless because there are plenty of "good players" who could face a player like MKLeo and be bodied every single time. Just because both are good doesn't mean there wasn't already a skill gap.
Did the Hero player win the set because of cheese? Being able to steal a game on rare occasions is meaningless if they couldn't win the set with such strats, because winning one game in a tournament means literally nothing
Would the Hero player have definitely lost the set if not for the cheese?
Uh...yes? Are you not familiar with professional sports? Teams and groups will often have professional translators because it's absurd to expect someone to instantly be able to communicate in an entirely different language?So what do we do about football players from Latin America, Africa, or Asia, who then get contracted by big European clubs? Do you think they have translators accompany them during training sessions or even football matches themselves? Do you think referees are trained to communicate with them in their respective native languages? Of course not, those players have to learn the language of the country they are going to, or at least basic English for international matches.
Part of being a professional is accomodating to the environment you are working with. Smash players want to be treated like a serious eSport, but still want to be babied when stuff gets too hard for them. It's ridiculous.
Uh...yes? Are you not familiar with professional sports? Teams and groups will often have professional translators because it's absurd to expect someone to instantly be able to communicate in an entirely different language?
Like are you really making a point like this while knowing nothing about the professional world?
Im amazed you still think this is about winning or losing when from the beginning its been about whether or not severe RNG is healthy for a competitive setting. Doesn't matter if someone wins only a game or two when the problem is they're taking stocks at all through pure random chance.
I have no doubt MVD and Puppeh would have still won without mucking around with Hocus Pocus and Thwack (though that clip he also had Magic Burst up which was a guaranteed kill instead). Thats not the point.