when the post you responded to was made, what was labeled as the source in the OP was breitbart-adjacent nyheteridag
and indeed the reporting there had a lot less nuance than the actual source of the study, which was the public television
In Sweden, 58% of those convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past 5 years were born abroad
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and indeed the reporting there had a lot less nuance than the actual source of the study, which was the public television
Why wouldn't it need to be? The implication of the OP, whoever is committing these crimes, is that there's clearly a cultural element to the disproportionately large rate of rape amongst those not born in Sweden. Culture doesn't just disappear in a generation, and as an example on a similar matter the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal was primarily committed by British-Pakistani men who were not first generation - but I don't think anyone doubts there was a cultural element to it, despite them not being first generation migrants. I mean, two of them shouted "Allahu Akbar" in court and they specifically targeted girls of from the same British-Pakistani community, knowing that the sense of shame and resulting social ostracision that results from admitting to being victims of rape would help keep a lid on things. Obviously I have no idea if this is the case in Sweden but the idea that the status of someone as a second or third generation migrant can't possibly matter is tremendously naive.
Biggest jump to conclusion there ever was ?
Different types of immigration too.
You've been given other, non rightwing links. Can you please replace it so new readers don't give clicks to Fascists? It's not rocket science.
You should say how you really feel.
Takes literally 5 seconds to Google.
Anyways, the publication and it's overall credibility doesn't matter unless said publication is the primary source.
Yeah, I had them confused for a bit, dancing on too many parties right now. Sorry.
America is separated by two huge oceans, and you have some of the strictest immigration laws, so you don't even get poor immigrants but mostly your doctors and engineers who are wealthy enough to immigrate and also much easier to integrate. You mostly deal with illegal immigration from South America, and you have problems with that, now imagine being part of the world where most of the world's population resides... with direct land connections.
Europe is one continent, Eurasia, and of course passage from Africa is also easy (relatively), this means a lot of immigration from people with no education and from deeply conservative countries and societies. You cannot compare U.S integration with Europe at all, it's not even the same reality.
It's much, much more difficult to integrate hundreds of thousands of people with no education vs. your carefully selected engineers, doctors, etc. There are people that come from countries in the ME like Syria where antisemitism is state ideology and common in society, they don't all of a sudden drop these beliefs as they enter European countries which is why there has been a significant rise in antisemitism in countries over the last few years like Germany and Sweden.
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Historically SVT have been accused of leaning left yes, that doesn't mean that things can't change with time. SVT Göteborg in particular do seem to have developed an unhealthy obsession with immigration in the last few years.
Short answer is same as always: rape culture. It's well understood how culture infliences these things, and it isn't shocking nor bigoted that different cultures with hugely different understandings of things like consent and the role of women might commit related crimes at a different rate.
What would be more interesting is to see how fast this changes across generations. I imagine it dissolves pretty quickly.
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FYI, starting a conversation about rape with the phrase "not a good look" is, in itself, maybe not the best look.
You got it. I really don't feel like it merits explanation because it should be blatantly obvious. If people want to be naive and dense it's on them.
You're right, I'll try to do better in the future. I don't want to be burning the books so I'll let the statement stay.
This has been "known" for a long time, but here's confirmation. And it makes perfect sense. People from MENA countries (which aren't the only ones this is about, but they seem overrepresented within the larger overrepresented group) have been brought up in cultures with often horrific views on women and gender equality, decades or even centuries behind the generally progressive views of Sweden. This is NOT a controversial thing to say (or it shouldn't be), and it's not a racist or xenophobic thing to say. It's not a "brown people are bad" thing, it's a "certain cultures are stuck in the past" thing.
Now, what do we do about it? I don't know, there's no simple answer, obviously. But I guess it's about teaching immigrants Swedish values, and making sure they understand they are expected to abide by them. That starts with learning Swedish, which should be mandatory. Then learning about Swedish culture, values, etc. That doesn't mean "leave everything about your own culture behind", the good parts you're welcome to keep. But we can't accept viewing women as the property of men, honor culture, etc.
Also integration in general has to start working. It has generally failed spectacularly in Sweden, with massive segregation resulting in insular communities of like-minded people who don't mix much with society in general. Partly because of failed politics, partly because they don't want to. Well, I think they'll have to.
Now, what do we do about it? I don't know, there's no simple answer, obviously. But I guess it's about teaching immigrants Swedish values, and making sure they understand they are expected to abide by them. That starts with learning Swedish, which should be mandatory. Then learning about Swedish culture, values, etc. That doesn't mean "leave everything about your own culture behind", the good parts you're welcome to keep. But we can't accept viewing women as the property of men, honor culture, etc.
Also integration in general has to start working. It has generally failed spectacularly in Sweden, with massive segregation resulting in insular communities of like-minded people who don't mix much with society in general. Partly because of failed politics, partly because they don't want to. Well, I think they'll have to.
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Because it's a matter of seeing if the culture of immigrants contributes to, or even comprises most of, rape culture in Sweden. Second-generation immigrants are still part of this culture, so it would be wrong to conclude that only first-generation immigrants are representative of this problem.
Personal experience with rape victims (I've known quite a few while I was in therapy myself) paints exactly this picture of Middle Eastern and African immigrant families monopolising the non-incestuous rape market. It's an inconvenient truth. First-generation offenders were probably a minority because there are more second- or third-generation immigrants than people actually born in a different country. So these numbers don't even tell the whole story.
I understand why you take issue with the term second-generation immigrant though. Maybe it shouldn't be used, because surely these people being treated as different by society is part of many of the issues they encounter and the problems they cause - but for research purposes it is good to acknowledge later generations still fall into a different group, representative of the issue that is Middle Eastern and African treatment of women.
I'm not so sure this is true. It's highly dependent on what cultural norms and practices we're talking about here.
I know it would be controversial but the problem in Sweden isn't "immigrants" in general, it's immigrated men. Looking at Sweden statistics we've taken in 10 000-30 000 more men than women yearly. Why have we allowed assh**** into the country that advocate sharia laws? We should at least stop allowing men into the country until we've balanced the numbers out.
We have a huge problem with men in this country, 80% of assault suspects are men. 98% of rape suspects are men.
I haven't found any statistics yet when it comes to comparing illegal immigrants vs. immigrants. My guess is that a lot of these rapes comes from illegal immigrants living in the streets.
We have a huge problem with men in this country, 80% of assault suspects are men. 98% of rape suspects are men.
I haven't found any statistics yet when it comes to comparing illegal immigrants vs. immigrants. My guess is that a lot of these rapes comes from illegal immigrants living in the streets.
Americans love tracing their heritage for a bunch of generations.
Well, a non-native is not necessarily a refugee. My follow up question would be how much of Sweden's young population is non-native. Young people in their teens and 20s commit by far the most crime and as far as I know Sweden has only recently accepted much immigration, so their native population is probably relatively old on average. To me it's common sense that if you have an influx of young people, whether by baby boom or immigration, your crime rates will be pressured upwards and the new people will be overrepresented. Which is why it still surprises me to be reminded that in the US, a drop in crime rate over the next 10 years tends to follow admittance of a large amount of refugees. So if the same is not true for Sweden they might be fucking something up with integration here and might need to take a page from America's book for once. I also know there's a massive difference in the crime rate of North African refugees and Syrian refugees. Perhaps Sweden needs to change something about how they handle the former. What, I don't know, as I'm no expert and know nothing about Sweden.
This is honestly one of the most bizarre aspects of being here in America.
Naturally. It's a give and take, and while often time immigrant cultures need to "give" more by shedding cultural norms they brought with them that directly clash with native norms, they also bring with them some norms that are either tolerated or sometimes wholly embraced by the native culture. Sometimes this is done explicitly or sometimes it's done in more subtle ways over time.
This isn't about assimilation. You just gotta screen people better. You can't just let anyone in your country.
We don't have this problem in the u.s. At least not when it comes to Arab and North African Muslims.
This is bad. Not just for the women who are now afraid to live in their own country but the rest of the Arab immigrants who have nothing to do with this and will always be looked as rapists.
We don't have this problem in the u.s. At least not when it comes to Arab and North African Muslims.
This is bad. Not just for the women who are now afraid to live in their own country but the rest of the Arab immigrants who have nothing to do with this and will always be looked as rapists.
Odds of SD becoming the strongest party this year? Odds of them forming a government coalition? I assume the former is quite high, while the latter is near zero but I know next to nothing about Swedish politics so pls hook me up with some info.
Yeah, whatever feeds the narrative and is in the public eye more. The most ridiculous thing is they can't even do anything about refugee policy realistically -- just whine and create boogeymen.
These statistics are really concerning though. Clearly something is going wrong with integration of regular migrants.
It also depends entirely on the individual. FGM is abviously a massive no-no but I don't give a shit about wearing headscarves at work.
Makes it all that much harder.
Yup, the fact that a lot of people in this thread can't accept this report from SVT's Uppdrag Granskning (Swedish state television) about something that has been known for quite awhile isn't surprising as it's an uncomfortable statistic.
European countries are taking on refugees from wars/conflict etc while America doesn't is the difference.
Also, convicted rape stats here per capita is still far lower than America.
Just use a rapist detector I guess ?
0.06% of migrants is low.
I don't think this report will make a massive change in their favor. This is something they have been talking about for years, so I doubt it will change things up much. This is pretty much the number one thing people turn to when trying to back up their racism.
odds of both are quite low
opinion polls routinely show them coming in second or third place, and swedish opinion polls are usually quite accurate
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinionsmätningar_inför_riksdagsvalet_i_Sverige_2018
That's lower than I expected, I've seen the "25%" number many times so I assumed it to be correct. Looks good.
THE strongest? Pretty low, but they are already 3rd biggest and could become 2nd.
Imagining this guy being the PM gives me the creeps.
Holy shit at that image. Absolute perfection.THE strongest? Pretty low, but they are already 3rd biggest and could become 2nd.
Imagining this guy being the PM gives me the creeps.
Yeah, I completely agree. He is totally not a nazi, but he has the singer of a nazi band as an idol, and he thinks that everyone should read alternative medias. Totally not a nazi. I promise.
THE strongest? Pretty low, but they are already 3rd biggest and could become 2nd.
Imagining this guy being the PM gives me the creeps.
I'm curious what the rate of sexual assaults are perpetrated by native swedes vs the stats on native US perpetrators in their own countries. I would not be surprised at all if there's a much larger % of non-immigrant Americans committing sexual assaults compared to non-immigrant swedes.
So the stats in the OP could seen extreme but if Sweden already has a lot rate of sexual assaults than it could easily seem like a difference in cultures and laws of surrounding countries that aren't working as well as whatever system Sweden uses. (IE: laws, teaching about these things in schools, average morals and values of swedes, punishment vs rehabilitation, etc)
I mean we all know our system in the US is completely fucked though.
So the stats in the OP could seen extreme but if Sweden already has a lot rate of sexual assaults than it could easily seem like a difference in cultures and laws of surrounding countries that aren't working as well as whatever system Sweden uses. (IE: laws, teaching about these things in schools, average morals and values of swedes, punishment vs rehabilitation, etc)
I mean we all know our system in the US is completely fucked though.
This gif is fucking hilarious. I'm on the train, doing my best to hold my laughter.THE strongest? Pretty low, but they are already 3rd biggest and could become 2nd.
Imagining this guy being the PM gives me the creeps.
Depends on the poll. With all the recent news seeing them north of 25% wouldn't surprise me.
THE strongest? Pretty low, but they are already 3rd biggest and could become 2nd.
Imagining this guy being the PM gives me the creeps.
This dude just screams basement Nazi.
Fuck me.
I understand why people are concerned about the looks of this and how it gives ammo to the right, but this isn't something that can be ignored. It is a serious amount of data and the thing is, unless there was a huge social difference in terms of class between natives and non-natives, it is quite alarming.
The issue with immigration and integrating large amounts of those from regressive countries, is that countries will also be taking in people with regressive beliefs. The belief that woman serve men, the belief that rape is okay, the belief that certain things aren't rape or sexual assault, and the belief that woman is just generally inferior and they can do whatever they want to them. Another issue is that this isn't just with rape, even though that is what many of us hone in on, there is a dramatic difference in violent crimes.
More than 50% of rape being committed by foreigners is ridiculous, and not a moment or data we should look at and be concerned about the alt-right, but on why such a difference and how to deal with it. It is very complicated and this is why I can understand people not wanting to take in immigrants who hold views that are seen as regressive (handshake thread). Is there a better way to deal with this other than lowering immigration? Why is integration so terrible? How can the state taking them in lower such crimes? Its just really difficult because it requires a lot of resource on the country taking them in to get them up to speed.
The issue with immigration and integrating large amounts of those from regressive countries, is that countries will also be taking in people with regressive beliefs. The belief that woman serve men, the belief that rape is okay, the belief that certain things aren't rape or sexual assault, and the belief that woman is just generally inferior and they can do whatever they want to them. Another issue is that this isn't just with rape, even though that is what many of us hone in on, there is a dramatic difference in violent crimes.
More than 50% of rape being committed by foreigners is ridiculous, and not a moment or data we should look at and be concerned about the alt-right, but on why such a difference and how to deal with it. It is very complicated and this is why I can understand people not wanting to take in immigrants who hold views that are seen as regressive (handshake thread). Is there a better way to deal with this other than lowering immigration? Why is integration so terrible? How can the state taking them in lower such crimes? Its just really difficult because it requires a lot of resource on the country taking them in to get them up to speed.
Are there any details in the report about the nature of the assaults and the relationship between the victim and the assailant?
If this is conviction rate I wonder if people are learning the wrong lesson from the statistics.
Black men are way more likely to be convicted of rape than white men in America. I don't believe there is any evidence to indicate that they are more likely to rape though.
Black men are way more likely to be convicted of rape than white men in America. I don't believe there is any evidence to indicate that they are more likely to rape though.
I believe this, and it's good they brought some nuance to these numbers. But, they do stop short of denying the majority of offenders are immigrants/children of immigrants. Since the research states that 80% of assault rapes and attempted rapes are done specifically by first-generation, foreign-born immigrants, even if it's true that in those cases women are three times as likely to report the crime, the remaining percentage is still over 50.
Of course native Swedish rapists will be the first to embrace these numbers and blame everything on foreigners. So good on the shelter to speak up.
These things tend to become nothing more than a number that people fight over. Especially when there is an election in 18 days. The racists use it to fuel their agenda, and the non-racists go into anti-propaganda mode. It's horrible when there are actual people being raped and assaulted, but I doubt this way of using statistics is something that will ever change. Empathy for the victims is not something that is valued on either side, most of the time.
They're faceless numbers. Unless people are confronted with the horror in person it's just another statistic to fight over.
Preventing rape and punishing rapists should take precedent over any of the other issues discussed in this thread.
Betting companies have them in the running for being the biggest party, and they're in it for the money...
This is good. We have to talk about men. Period.
I do wonder if adjusting the huge gender imbalance in immigration would help curb these numbers from foreigners. Take in a more balanced number of genders, and preference to families and women over so many single men.
The solution isn't to ban refugees and immigrants, but looking at the gender ratio for adjustments to policy could help. It doesn't have to be a black or white issue, there can be asylum and immigration and responsible policy at the same time.
Many people don't want to acknowledge the issue of gender based oppression and stats.