yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.Not really, if this was in a peaceful time, I'd imagine they'll hail the plane and warn them first.
yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.Not really, if this was in a peaceful time, I'd imagine they'll hail the plane and warn them first.
Why not? They first claimed it was "technically infeasible" for the plane to have been shot down. They only admitted to what was completely impossible to deny.yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.
If they can't follow simple procedure or even logistics to make sure commercial civilian airspace is closed during large scale missile launches, well imagine the bomb.
So essentially this would not have happened because Trump therefore Trump is responsible? You should be gathering petitions and protesters to take him and administration to courtWhy not? They first claimed it was "technically infeasible" for the plane to have been shot down. They only admitted to what was completely impossible to deny.
It's difficult to trust any Nation with nuclear bombs. That's the whole point of the Nuclear Treaty (or, was at least).If they can't follow simple procedure or even logistics to make sure commercial civilian airspace is closed during large scale missile launches, well imagine the bomb.
yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.
Yes, their "excuse" is bullshit.yeah, ok. so then their excuse was bullshit? that is literally their reason for this.
Yes, their "excuse" is bullshit.
Though to be honest I don't consider it an outright excuse, as they didn't handwave away fault like we did with IA Flight 655 when we basically said we had to shoot it down because it was descending(it wasn't) towards our naval group and they had to defend themselves, with Iran this is like, fluff, they admit that they've fucked up and committed a wrong but had to add some BS reasoning for why it wasn't totally gross incompetence.
I get why some consider it an excuse but to me an excuse is more like asking to be excused for making a mistake and they're not really asking for that. But it's a fine line I guess.
Hitler had a horrible childhood.
So we can blame Hitler on his shitty parents for traumatizing him.
And we can blame his grandparents for probably traumatizing his parents.
Etc.
Or we can blame Hitler.
For this plane crash, it is 100% Iran's fault. Period.
It's not the same, Iran has actually admitted fault, expressed it's condolences and publicly apologized, and has at least promised(for what that's worth) to hold responsible those who made the fuck up. The United States on the other hand never admitted actual fault, though we never denied we actually did it, gave a more half assed apology than Iran has here as just a quick aside during a press event, and gave out medals to the crew that shot down the Iranian plane, albeit NOT for shooting down an Iranian airliner of course but it was considered that there was no error in judgement, no mistake made, and thus medals for everyone for their deployment.Wtf. You give credit to Iran for giving the exact excuse as the U.S did for Flight 655 while calling out the U.S in the exact same sentence.
It's like breaking into someone's house in the night and loudly murdering their dog, and then being surprised when they accidentally shoot the postman in the morning
No one is clean in this situation except the people on that plane
It's not the same, Iran has actually admitted fault, expressed it's condolences and publicly apologized, and has at least promised(for what that's worth) to hold responsible those who made the fuck up. The United States on the other hand never admitted actual fault, though we never denied we actually did it, gave a more half assed apology than Iran has here as just a quick aside during a press event, and gave out medals to the crew that shot down the Iranian plane, albeit NOT for shooting down an Iranian airliner of course but it was considered that there was no error in judgement, no mistake made and thus medals for everyone for their deployment.
It's actually very different.
I mean, after lying about the incident, and seemingly still lying about the events.It's not the same, Iran has actually admitted fault, expressed it's condolences and publicly apologized, and has at least promised(for what that's worth) to hold responsible those who made the fuck up. The United States on the other hand never admitted actual fault, though we never denied we actually did it, gave a more half assed apology than Iran has here as just a quick aside during a press event, and gave out medals to the crew that shot down the Iranian plane, albeit NOT for shooting down an Iranian airliner of course but it was considered that there was no error in judgement, no mistake made, and thus medals for everyone for their deployment.
It's actually very different.
Sad that they had to lie about it and terribly reckless circumstances and idiocy to let it happen. I can only say at least they admitted it.
Iran bulldozed the crash site, originally refused to give up the black boxes, lied and said the plane crashed due to "malfunction" and only admitted guilt after numerous other nations concluded themselves that it was brought down by missile and pressured Iran into admitted fault.
Man, we should be glad Iran has been like soooooo much more honest than the US throughout this whole ordeal....
You can't really conflate the strengths & weaknesses of different militaries within a region. Iran, for example, has one of the strongest militaries within the Middle East, which is why they persevered in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s (which they fought with little help, even while Iraq was backed by the West to the level of being provided with Chemical Weapons). Of course, their real strength isn't in their ability fight a direct confrontation, but to fight asymmetrically (e.g. through supporting proxies & other regional allies to further their goals).Forgive me for stereotyping, but I've read several articles suggesting middle-eastern armies are notoriously badly trained and managed. It makes sense though, any real conflict is going to be resolved by third parties getting involved (The USA, Russia, China, ECT) so the overall combat-readiness of the nation itself is less important, so all sorts of corruption takes root (Not that there's no corruption in first world powers, but at least they know that if they fuck up nobody can bail them out.)
So yeah, the fact that they blew up a plane by accident doesn't shock me overly much.
The US does it all the time, how many funerals, weddings etc. have been accidentally bombed? Whoopsie, we thought you were terrorists ...
Do you not understand nuance? Mistakes have causes but those causes do not always absolve you of responsibility.U.S: we shot down this plane
Iran: we shot down this plane
U.S: but.
Iran: but.
U.S: it was heading straight for us.
Iran: it was heading straight for us.
Get the fuck outta here with that shit.
Now, of course they did initially lie about the incident. And even if they didn't lie and the Ayatollah really didn't find out until Friday as claimed they still have to own the fact that people in their government did lie and attempted to cover it up, so either way they tried to cover it up.I mean, after lying about the incident, and seemingly still lying about the events.
But we'll need to see the compensation package for the victims families before completely comparing the responses. So far they are both seriously wanting.
If Iranian high command isn't essentially instantly aware that an air defense station fired a missile, their problems are far worse than even this event shows.I'd imagine the ones in leadership positions probably weren't aware of what had happened initially. The news had to trickle upwards from the ones who pulled the trigger after all. Though it really shouldn't have taken more than a day to find out the truth.
Still a colossal fuckup by them. Hope they compensate the victims fast.
Keep up friend. He openly admitted today that he did this to curry favour from senators that will be pivotal in the upcoming impeachment trial.
I don't think Skill shaming is the adequate type of blame to be placed here.
This is the fog of war.
Even Geraldo Rivera gets it.
You ramp up military tension between two nations and innocent people often get caught in the crossfire. The United States shares some blame due to blowing the doors off of anything prior after assassinating Soleimani with a drone.
Indeed that would show a total logistical failure on the part of how the Iranians communicate internally and whether high command even has control over military staff.If Iranian high command isn't essentially instantly aware that an air defense station fired a missile, their problems are far worse than even this event shows.
Oh my fucking god will you people stop with this bullshit "defending Iran" garbage? Just fucking stop. Saying that the US has blame in this incident is not the same as "going to bat for Iran". It's not. Acknowledging that the US has blood on its hands in this tragedy does not in anyway defend Iran or absolve it.It's mindblowing just how much people are going to bat for Iran by "both sides"-ing this incident. This didn't take place in Iraq or a currently contested area, this took place IN THE CAPITAL OF IRAN. Iran shot down its own airplane seemingly for no reason, then tried to cover it up, lied about it, until video evidence and other countries had proof AND THEN decided to come clean. Iran killed Canadians and it's own civilians in this idiotic and senseless killing of civilians. That's just pure incompetence. Trump is an asshole for many things, but just because he's a monster doesn't mean you can just handwave Iran's involvement. Iran is currently in armed conflict with many countries all at the same time, do you blame them as well for murdering their own civilians and shooting down their own planes inside Iran?
If Iranian high command isn't essentially instantly aware that an air defense station fired a missile, their problems are far worse than even this event shows.
It's mindblowing just how much people are going to bat for Iran by "both sides"-ing this incident. This didn't take place in Iraq or a currently contested area, this took place IN THE CAPITAL OF IRAN. Iran shot down its own airplane seemingly for no reason, then tried to cover it up, lied about it, until video evidence and other countries had proof AND THEN decided to come clean. Iran killed Canadians and it's own civilians in this idiotic and senseless killing of civilians. That's just pure incompetence. Trump is an asshole for many things, but just because he's a monster doesn't mean you can just handwave Iran's involvement. Iran is currently in armed conflict with many countries all at the same time, do you blame them as well for murdering their own civilians and shooting down their own planes inside Iran?
Philip Bump @pbump
Two things I'd note about Iran's admission.
1. Contrast with Russia's ongoing denial about MH17.
2. Very curious if the emergence of public evidence of a missile strike made denial impossible.
Again, from earlier: how that evidence accrued. https://wapo.st/35AaBYk
11:14 PM - Jan 10, 2020
The not-killing US citizens was completely on purpose though. Without his tragic incident, it would have been a very smart retaliation.Iran was viewed as a serious power in the region, a lot of Arabs and Sunni's in particular saw them as a Goliath. This whole ordeal and reeeeeeally damaged their image. The fact that their response to the US attack killed no US citizens and instead shot down a civilian airplane instead killed hundreds of Iranians, if it wasn't so tragic it'd be clown like. Can imagine the US is now thinking "these are the people we were sacred of enriching uranium?"
Americans didn't die because Iran didn't want any to die.Iran was viewed as a serious power in the region, a lot of Arabs and Sunni's in particular saw them as a Goliath. This whole ordeal and reeeeeeally damaged their image. The fact that their response to the US attack killed no US citizens and instead shot down a civilian airplane instead killed hundreds of Iranians, if it wasn't so tragic it'd be clown like. Can imagine the US is now thinking "these are the people we were sacred of enriching uranium?"
The US does it all the time, how many funerals, weddings etc. have been accidentally bombed? Whoopsie, we thought you were terrorists ...
They tried their best to cover it up but realized they couldn't. pictures of the picked debris, video of the missile, and radar tracking the launches meant that trying to hide it wasn't viable.Actually kinda surprised they admitted it and didn't go Russia route.
If they can't follow simple procedure or even logistics to make sure commercial civilian airspace is closed during large scale missile launches, well imagine the bomb.
The not-killing US citizens was completely on purpose though. Without his tragic incident, it would have been a very smart retaliation.
I'm fully aware of that, but this tragedy DID happen and as a result the entire Iran response makes them look comically incapable.Americans didn't die because Iran didn't want any to die.
Without this tragedy it would have been a textbook response.