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Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
The former begets the latter.

How does learning about the distant universe help us come to terms with the legacy of colonialism and the need to combat climate change/install a more democratic, egalitarian society? What does the learning about a quark's nature tell us about how we should orient out society's values?

This is my problem with scientism. It tells us nothing about society and the human condition. Humanities > STEM.

philosophyForceFive3.png
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,310
I'm not crying, just pointing out your obvious prejudices. Thank you for permission to be upset though. I'm not personally offended, just generally, as should you be were you to witness any human blaming an entire group of people for something, let alone said group not really being solely to blame in this case.

I guess just dont lump people together and maybe these mistakes wouldnt happen to you.

You're trying so hard to school me and I'm not moved.

Add the fact you mention an empty ass moral platitude that has never held true in practice which gets utilized overtly by the same group I criticize. Maybe when such a wonderful idea gets applied overall, Ill decide to lay off.

Doesn't change the fact people think they're entitled to this land to build some telescope as if Hawaii is some god given gift and wasn't outright stolen from the native people.
 

cDNA

Member
Oct 25, 2017
917
You said it yourself in your post what "white philosophy" is in regards to land and native concerns.

This entire situation stinks of white man's burden and the "hindersnce of scientific achievement"

The native people have connection to the land, leave the damn land alone.


Look at how some react to the info

Science > Sacred Land

Tell me how that's not a white colonial attitude if I've ever seen one
Majority of the history white colonialism is not related to science, is mostly motivated to economic interest, nationalism and religion. I agree with you in the respect to the sacred land but tying scientific progress to white colonialism does a great disservice.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,605
Majority of the history white colonialism is not related to science, is mostly motivated to economic interest, nationalism and religion. I agree with you in the respect to the sacred land but tying scientific progress to white colonialism does a great disservice.
perversion of and manipulation of science and its interpretation of facts motivated by economic interests, nationalism, and religion?
yes. yes, and ongoing current and present yes.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,310
Majority of the history white colonialism is not related to science, is mostly motivated to economic interest, nationalism and religion. I agree with you in the respect to the sacred land but tying scientific progress to white colonialism does a great disservice.

Yes, I can understand what you mean. We do have American episodes where science progression is tied to racism and supremacy, but i can understand how in this instance it may not exactly be the case due to multinational backing.

The only info that could back up my initial statement is based on who exactly owns the land and the current racial makeup of the local government who would allow the construction.
 

Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
guyz why do you hate science and space? :(

(fuck your telescope)

Lol this thread pretty much represents the last hurrah of the New Atheism movement that made discussions about science and religion so fucking insufferable. A lot Neil DeGrasse Tyson's in this thread being oblivious to the limits of applying science to social issues.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,663
Saw some of these protests when I was there last month. I support native lands staying in native hands, particularly if said natives were promised protections over that land against this sort of thing already, but tbh I rolled my eyes pretty hard at a lot of the blatantly anti-science rhetoric I saw around some of this stuff.

The time for looking is over. The time for exploring is now. We haven't even been back to the moon! It's been 47 years!
How the hell do you think that exploration happens in the first place? Astronauts aren't flying blind out there!
 

kingslunk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
962
Yes, I can understand what you mean. We do have American episodes where science progression is tied to racism and supremacy, but i can understand how in this instance it may not exactly be the case due to multinational backing.

The only info that could back up my initial statement is based on who exactly owns the land and the current racial makeup of the local government who would allow the construction.

It's not just the local government btw. Hawaii's Supreme Court voted in favor of the telescope as well.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,489
Spoke like a true colonizer, fuck what natives want or believe!
Apparently many natives are also in favor of the telescope. Why do you assume that the protesters represent a majority among the native population (maybe they are but it's also possible they are not), their concerns should be heard but it's not as easy as saying "Natives are against it, move somewhere else" as if there's no room for discussion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
Apparently many natives are also in favor of the telescope. Why do you assume that the protesters represent a majority among the native population (maybe they are but it's also possible they are not), their concerns should be heard but it's not as easy as saying "Natives are against it, move somewhere else" as if there's no room for discussion.
If only that was the argument of the poster.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
How does learning about the distant universe help us come to terms with the legacy of colonialism and the need to combat climate change/install a more democratic, egalitarian society? What does the learning about a quark's nature tell us about how we should orient out society's values?

This is my problem with scientism. It tells us nothing about society and the human condition. Humanities > STEM.

...did you just ask how science can help us combat climate change?
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
Since this is clearly aimed at me, the protestors represent a small but vocal minority and are not exclusively native hawaiians, and many of them do not even live on the big island. A majority of the population of the big island supports the telescope project, and in case you need an actual primer on the makeup of Hawaii, its a very diverse population with no majority ethnicity so its not being pushed exclusively by one ethnicity or demographic. Conflating all native hawaiiners as against the project is disengenuous. For reference I live in Pahoa so im not talking out of my ass here.

so "the mountain belongs to all"; we must coexist as long as that coexistence is not based on the Kanaka model?

The idea that opposition is in fact not grounded with native hawaiians and with Kanaka movements, is not new but it is never substantiated by scientific facts. On the other hand there is plenty if evidence of the opposite- I can provide many scientific papers showing how the resistance is closely linked with native hawaiian movements w/o claiming that such groups are monoliths... indigenous resistance is almost universally enacted by a minority - the reasons for this is usually linked with histories of racialized oppression. Hawaii has an interesting history of both Asian and US settler colonialism that is still visible today..

I also maintain that conflating groups resisting TMT with idiots, is not a particularly scientific way of approaching the question.
 

SolidSnakeBoy

Member
May 21, 2018
7,349
I think the best approach is to try and accommodate the demands of the protesters, but certainly the telescope should be built. This is a project that benefits all of humanity and is backed by a multicultural scientific group with no motivation other than exploring the boundaries of our understanding. To top it off, there is of yet any conclusive evidence that a majority of the native population opposes the construction. It's true that the simplest compromise would be to build somewhere else, but that's not a reasonable request when it comes to such a location dependent facility. Maybe they should just provide a section of the mountain to build observatories on and in the future if they run out of space they can apply for more or simply scuttle old telescopes.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,711
So to summarize as best I can from the thread there really seems to be three major issues with building it:
1. Peak is considered sacred and some natives want to stop a new major project from going up there. What percent is a bit fuzzy and you could toss in a debate on who's opinion matters in that regard (as a white dude on the eastern contintental USA, I'm 100% certain mine doesn't count). Even if you don't subscribe to the native beliefs, the site clearly has at least significant cultural meaning and we generally do try to protect such places.
2. While peak already has several telescopes, locals were assured no more would be built. Peak already having telescopes doesn't negate #1 since I'm going to guess at least a few of those were built without giving a damn about the locals.
3. There are concerns about pollution from the building and running of a new massive telescope borne out of past issues.

The site won the selection process, but there are alternative sites which are comparable (though no quite as good for viewing).

Is that all about right?

I thought I heard/read that some of the existing telescopes would be removed, thus the overall footprint of the telescopes and research base would shrink even if you did build this. Is that the case or was I imagining things?

These issues really don't seem insurmountable with some dialog and concessions - remove some of the old telescopes, place the new one in a spot that uses as much existing already constructed infrastructure as possible, take extensive precautions in construction/operation, and work with the indigenous population to keep them involved in every step of the construction and operation of the scope.

Perhaps I'm grossly understating the situation though, just seems like protests are usually borne out of one group steamrolling another, not long steady dialog.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Eh, this isn't about money, this is about cultural heritage and other important intangibles for the indigenous peoples of Hawaii. It's a touchy subject.
Majority of the history white colonialism is not related to science, is mostly motivated to economic interest, nationalism and religion. I agree with you in the respect to the sacred land but tying scientific progress to white colonialism does a great disservice.

Oh, it's about money. If you want time on the current telescopes be prepared to pay $1/second. That money isn't going to the native population, as the government leases the land to the observatories for essentially free.

Just because a consortium is international, doesn't dismiss a profit motive.

Yes, I can understand what you mean. We do have American episodes where science progression is tied to racism and supremacy, but i can understand how in this instance it may not exactly be the case due to multinational backing.

The only info that could back up my initial statement is based on who exactly owns the land and the current racial makeup of the local government who would allow the construction.

The US got control after overthrowing Hawaii's monarchy. And agreements with the native population have been respected about as well as agreements with Native Americans.

tl;dr You're not wrong.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
You're trying so hard to school me and I'm not moved.

Add the fact you mention an empty ass moral platitude that has never held true in practice which gets utilized overtly by the same group I criticize. Maybe when such a wonderful idea gets applied overall, Ill decide to lay off.

Doesn't change the fact people think they're entitled to this land to build some telescope as if Hawaii is some god given gift and wasn't outright stolen from the native people.
You do a great job of schooling yourself. I try to apply the "empty" idea of living without prejudice everyday of my life, no matter who else believes in its effectiveness but alas, you're right about Hawaii. If its sacred to the natives, then they can shove off.

Annnnnd, I'm out.
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
so "the mountain belongs to all"; we must coexist as long as that coexistence is not based on the Kanaka model?

The idea that opposition is in fact not grounded with native hawaiians and with Kanaka movements, is not new but it is never substantiated by scientific facts. On the other hand there is plenty if evidence of the opposite- I can provide many scientific papers showing how the resistance is closely linked with native hawaiian movements w/o claiming that such groups are monoliths... indigenous resistance is almost universally enacted by a minority - the reasons for this is usually linked with histories of racialized oppression. Hawaii has an interesting history of both Asian and US settler colonialism that is still visible today..

I also maintain that conflating groups resisting TMT with idiots, is not a particularly scientific way of approaching the question.

The local government supports the telescope, which is why they signed off on it, the state government signed off on it, a majority of the population that includes many diverse people support, all who pay taxes and should recieve representation for being citizens of hawaii. Believe me, I know the history of colonialism that exists on hawaii, though I do find it strange your assertion of asian settler colonialism when many peoples from china, japan, and korea were brought over as basically plantation indentured servitude.....Just because a small minority of even the proposed ethnic group in question protests, then all progress should stop? What if say these protestors supported removing all forms of electricity, or all cars on the island in the name of cultural history? Why then does this small group have so much power in your eyes over the people that actually live in the area, and not people who fly over from Oahu or the mainland who come protest. This also ignores the fact that there are already at least 12 telescopes on the top in a VERY small area of the overall mountain top. Their footprint is tiny.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
How does learning about the distant universe help us come to terms with the legacy of colonialism and the need to combat climate change/install a more democratic, egalitarian society? What does the learning about a quark's nature tell us about how we should orient out society's values?

Literally never said anything like this nor anything about the value of the Humanities but go off king
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
Oh, it's about money. If you want time on the current telescopes be prepared to pay $1/second. That money isn't going to the native population, as the government leases the land to the observatories for essentially free.

Just because a consortium is international, doesn't dismiss a profit motive.

That money is going back to the native population as well as the residents of the big island. As part of the negotiation with Hawaii, the observatory had to invest a seperate 1 billion into the local economy to create jobs for all in the area and to stimulate development in what is considered a very poor part of hawaii. And to use telescopes on top of the mountain, they are provided for freely so I don't know where you are pulling these numbers out of. All you have to do is drive up to the point before its dangerous for kids and there are free telescopes and astronomy shows.
 

noob-noob

Member
Nov 1, 2017
156
Boston
How does learning about the distant universe help us come to terms with the legacy of colonialism and the need to combat climate change/install a more democratic, egalitarian society? What does the learning about a quark's nature tell us about how we should orient out society's values?

This is my problem with scientism. It tells us nothing about society and the human condition. Humanities > STEM.

You are clearly a person who is extremely ignorant of all the benefits that science has given to your every day life. Half the world would be starving, the other half dying from disease, and we'd be pumping out chemicals into our environment that would have killed what little is left of our ecosystem if it wasn't for science.

And for all the people saying that science justified colonialism in the past, what are you on about? What we consider modern science only came about in the last 100 years or so. Just because some ass hat 300 years ago was saying the word science to justify horrendous behavior doesn't mean those actions we're literally taken because of some well established scientific principle.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
You literally implied it with "the former begets the latter." But I bet you're so euphoric about trampling on other cultures. You sound like you belong on r/Atheism by being so dismissive of indigenous issues l.

Do you actually believe that observation of the cosmos has never caused us to re-evaluate our understanding of ourselves and our place in the universe? That it doesn't tie directly into philosophy and inform our theories of metaphysics?

Astronomy invites, even necessitates, introspection. That's all I meant to convey.
 

Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
You are clearly a person who is extremely ignorant of all the benefits that science has given to your every day life. Half the world would be starving, the other half dying from disease, and we'd be pumping out chemicals into our environment that would have killed what little is left of our ecosystem if it wasn't for science.

And for all the people saying that science justified colonialism in the past, what are you on about? What we consider modern science only came about in the last 100 years or so. Just because some ass hat 300 years ago was saying the word science to justify horrendous behavior doesn't mean those actions we're literally taken because of some well established scientific principle.

I'm taking about scientism, which is the excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques. I'm not talking about science as a method of discovering information. People in this thread like you are saying that just because the observatory is scientific means it automatically trumps indigenous land rights and traditions. This is the problem a lot of people like myself have with people cloaking themselves in the rhetoric of scientific advancement to justify another's suffering. That's how you ended up with a Tuskegee syphilis experiment and atomic bomb testing on indigenous land in Bikini and Enewetak atolls.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
When you think about it, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment was also science
Wtf is this. The tuskegee experiments were a shameful event that cannot happen again. Saying it was for science in a disingenuous way of making a point about said science is exactly the problem with all the anti-science shit we see in popular culture today.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
How does that have anything to do with protestors protesting against a telescope being created?

Sometimes the belief that the social costs of scientific knowledge are inherently justified leads to situations in which the rights of those not privileged by society are wholly trampled upon. If you think the Tuskegee experiment is a breach of ethics that even something like the situation with Mauna Kea can't hold a candle to I won't argue against that belief but a precedent of using science as a defense to justify unethical treatment of marginalized groups exists. Boy howdy does it exist.
 

Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
Wtf is this. The tuskegee experiments were a shameful event that cannot happen again. Saying it was for science in a disingenuous way of making a point about said science is exactly the problem with all the anti-science shit we see in popular culture today.

Cannot happen again as children are having their genes spliced in China without regard to basic ethics...

Again the problem isn't science as a method of getting info but as a philosophy used to justify bad things in the name of a greater goal. Think Joseph Mengele or the US testing atomic bombs in the Marshall Islands by displacing and irradiating innocent Pacific Islanders.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,498
This situations makes me think about Henritta Hicks, the woman modern medicine was built off of, but they didn't even want to acknowledge she was a living being cause of "reasons". It's always the ones that have the least to lose that end up having their shit bargained away with little to no input from them
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,270
Sometimes the belief that the social costs of scientific knowledge are inherently justified leads to situations in which the rights of those not privileged by society are wholly trampled upon. If you think the Tuskegee experiment is a breach of ethics that even something like the situation with Mauna Kea can't hold a candle to I won't argue against that belief but a precedent of using science as a defense to justify unethical treatment of marginalized groups exists. Boy howdy does it exist.

Co-signed. Tuskegee is obviously the more atrocious event, but folks making the argument "but this will benefit humanity as a whole, who cares about the natives" are literally making the exact same rationalization.
 

100mega

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,175
I was lucky enough to go up Mauna Kea last year and as a big astronomy buff, it was an incredible experience. I got to see the Keck's calibration laser pointed at the black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy which a fellow traveler captured in a picture that she shared with me. It's a beautiful place and I feel it represents our noble desire to understand our place in the Universe. I'm so happy that it is open to the public and available for all to experience.

pjHVuak.jpg


It is my understanding that the telescope would be built on land that is not even visible from the highest point of the mountain which is still reserved for those who wish to practice their religion. In fact, the area they are intending to build it is currently closed to the public even before the project began so no one could physically go there anyway. The claims that it would impact the groundwater have been proven to be false. I think that short of just flat out not building the telescope TMT has been very considerate of how the whole project has been handled.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/07/protesters-cloud-tmt-discussion-with-false-claims-threats/

Protesters Cloud TMT Discussion With False Claims, Threats
The Thirty Meter Telescope has followed over a decade-long process and bent over backwards to listen to everyone.

By Annette Reyes / July 10, 2019

The now-approved Thirty Meter Telescope went through years of public listening sessions and hearings.

However, recent actions from TMT protesters make clear that they still cling to false, discredited claims about TMT. They also basically claim to speak for all Hawaiians when in fact they do not, while trying to intimidate those Hawaiians who support TMT.

For instance, as seen in the recent discussion of TMT's valid National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System water permit, many protesters repeat the ever popular — and ever wrong — claim that the TMT will pollute the aquifer. Both contested case hearings (and common sense) show that TMT, a zero-waste building on top of a dry mountain 12 miles from the nearest wells, will have no impact on the island's drinking water.

The state Board of Land and Natural Resources has now twice shown in detail why TMT meets the eight criteria for building in a conservation district.

Yet protesters continue to falsely claim that TMT violates these criteria, focusing for example on its size. TMT is just barely taller than current telescopes Subaru and Gemini. The telescope's footprint is comparable to the Keck Observatory. It will be visible to only 14% of Hawaii, smaller than the view plane of many current observatories, in part because it will be sited below the summit.

Another no less false claim repeated by other protesters is that TMT somehow disregards cultural Hawaiian practices. There have been no historical traditional, customary cultural practices on the TMT site, no burials, and no shrines.

TMT has bent over backwards in order to listen to demands of cultural practitioners and the community as a whole. Everything from the amount they're paying in rent to the color, size, shape, and location of the observatory to the THINK fund shows TMT's goodwill. In contrast, opponents often showed no interest in dialogue themselves.

TMT protesters also misuse words in highly charged and offensive ways. Take for instance the mention of "genocide" in many protesters' statements, a word that literally means the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

My family is Hawaiian and I am speaking for my family when I say I see no "genocide" here. Instead, with TMT I see a project that has helped my community already, even before construction has started. Appropriating this term for TMT is incorrect and insulting, belittling cases of actual genocide throughout the world.

Just because you don't agree with someone on TMT, it does not mean that person is beneath you. Many TMT opponents do not seem to understand this, especially when they are talking with Hawaiian TMT supporters.

Protesters attempt to delegitimize people like my family as "fake Hawaiians," "paid shills," "brainwashed" or "colonized" just because we disagree.
Embrace Nonviolence

Is it a sin to think for yourself and come to your own conclusions? Why aren't these phrases used to describe Hawaiians that, like the queen over a century ago, go to Christian churches and do not accept the religious beliefs of many TMT opponents?

The state is gearing up for enforcement of TMT's right to construction, and some protesters are complaining about the state using "excessive force" in part based on yet another discredited claim about equipment the state Department of Land and Natural Resources purchased long ago. Protesters may complain about getting arrested, but that's only because of their disregard for rules that the rest of us abide by and all the threats of violence from TMT protesters that we see every day on social media.

Go ahead. Deny it. But if you're truly honest with yourself, can you honestly say that there are no threats of violence due from TMT opponents?

The protesters' have issued physical threats against a high school TMT supporter, rammed vehicles into observatories, and put rocks in the road to block traffic. They also put two unpermitted ahus — which were not even constructed properly according to tradition — in the middle of the road in an obvious attempt to block the project.

If the protesters truly embrace "Kapu Aloha" they should renounce intimidation and violence and commit to protesting peacefully, without blocking TMT's construction.

I'd like to end by saying this: There are many Hawaiians that support TMT — more than people think (the polls say up to 70%). We stay quiet due to the hostile reactions that we get when we voice our opinions.

Everyone knows the TMT opponents will keep protesting. They have a right to do that so long as their protesting does not interfere with TMT's construction at all.

TMT has followed over a decade-long process, bent over backwards to listen to us, and shown protesters' claims about it to be false. It deserves our support.
 

noob-noob

Member
Nov 1, 2017
156
Boston
I'm taking about scientism, which is the excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques. I'm not talking about science as a method of discovering information. People in this thread like you are saying that just because the observatory is scientific means it automatically trumps indigenous land rights and traditions. This is the problem a lot of people like myself have with people cloaking themselves in the rhetoric of scientific advancement to justify another's suffering. That's how you ended up with a Tuskegee syphilis experiment and atomic bomb testing on indigenous land in Bikini and Enewetak atolls.

First bolded part, what does that even mean? So you want us to just ignore data from scientific experiments if it doesn't prescribe to your world view?

Second bolded part, that's not what I said at all. What I said was that the latest polling shows a majority of the native people are for the observatory. Also the fact that there are already multiple telescopes, what makes this one any different? I have yet to hear a single good reason not to build this telescope, people keep bringing up burial grounds and archeological sites, none of which is threatened by this new construction.

The decision to not tell black people that they weren't actually getting a cure to syphilis was not based off of science, it was based off of racism. Science didn't tell them to only let the black people suffer.
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
Theres an argument to be had over historical colonialism and the value of traditional sacred beliefs against the rush of modernity and technology, but cmon guys. When you jump straight to tuskagee experiments and atomic bomb destruction, its hard to have a discussion when we are talking about a telescope vs native beliefs, this is somewhat ridiculous.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
18,129
Why then does this small group have so much power in your eyes over the people that actually live in the area, and not people who fly over from Oahu or the mainland who come protest.

People flying from Oahu and the mainland can be people who grew up in the area. My gf, for example, is from Hilo but lives in Honolulu. Mauna Kea is important to her as is the Big Island itself.

I get that there is a lot of money involved. I do. I know the Big Island can use quite a bit of expenditure to help alleviate many issues. There are ways to do that without the telescope. My problem is that we've taken enough from indigenous peoples as it is so it's hard for me to get behind this.

I don't get how people are equating a telescope with say an oil pipeline or harmful experiments towards minorities. The telescope would be a net benefit to society and not harm the environment or any people in any meaningful way. There are already other telescopes on the mountain and many natives seem to be in favor of it.

I keep seeing that people are saying that natives seem to be in favor of it but I don't see any conclusive evidence of this. I'd be happy to see it if someone has it.

I found this poll:

Civil Beats said:
But Native Hawaiians, in contrast, were more likely to oppose the telescope — 48% of those surveyed said they are against building the TMT, compared to 44% who support it.
 
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