JoJo's Bizarre Adventure ERA |OT| Stand Up and Pose

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Based on what i've seen so far, if there are any people saying that about Kaato I might be inclined to believe them. She seems far more principled and badass than bubble dad, even if she is clearly on the wrong side at the moment.

where i'm at, Josuke and Yasuho are back in an actual team with no origami groper child in sight. I have reservations about this part so far, but those two as a duo is 100% of what's propelling me to keep reading. One of my favorite JoJo teams. If the plant expert is a permanent addition, then that will continue to hold true.
Jojolion’s cast isn’t as dorky as the other parts’ but i sure love their dynamics, it’s pretty hard in manga for the main protagonist to have a love interest that still gets some fighting time >_>, and yasuho’s stand is so useful i can’t really see her being sidelined much in the future xO

I like Rai a lot, he’s like a fusion of Tonio and that Superfly fella xD
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
Jojolion’s cast isn’t as dorky as the other parts’ but i sure love their dynamics, it’s pretty hard in manga for the main protagonist to have a love interest that still gets some fighting time >_>, and yasuho’s stand is so useful i can’t really see her being sidelined much in the future xO

I like Rai a lot, he’s like a fusion of Tonio and that Superfly fella xD
like i said, there are moments when they really click, but I'm really being worn down by the fairly consistent bleak instances of sexuality and violation. it seems to be a theme of this part, but i still don't really understand why. it's caught between seeming like it's trying to be both shocking and "authentic/raw" at the same time.

Again, I'm not caught up, but not that far away either.

edit: i keep getting recommended a YouTube vid on tusk act 4 vs gold experience requiem, and i really don't get it. the problem with infinite spin is that it's only infinite in one direction: there's no logical reason it couldnt be rewound back to its original zero resting point. anyways, i haven't watched the video, just think it seems silly.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Tusk loses the moment it needs a convoluted spin to be made AND hit before GER counters it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ unless GER needs the arrow to work, then rip giogio i guess

I think araki wanted eroticism to bea part of Jojolion,and that’s why he went for so many female characters, it’s odd, and i don’t think the intentions are that good but the side effect of having more women ended up having better women than the other parts... so i’m more inclined to like it,because icky scenes are less effective when you get more positive elements around them, unlike in sbr where you had only two female characters as a reference so whenever something happened to one of them, things would feel just goddamn awful to the point you almost want the gorilla back :/(no i dont want it back, but unlike lucy, no one got her character arc hurt with that :/)
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
I really don’t want to weigh in on this discussion, as I realize it’ll seem like I’m dismissing people’s concerns, but I’m not entirely sure how most of the incidents being discussed—particularly those involving Yasuho, who has repeatedly fended for herself—are inherently problematic. None of the women in JoJolion have been robbed of their agency (except Daiya, arguably). They’re all strong minded, they all fight back, and they’re all in control of their own lives—including their sexuality. If they were merely used as props, that would be one thing—but they’re not. That’s an important distinction: They’re not damsels in distress. When they find themselves in compromising situations, with others attempting to take advantage of them, they don’t wait to be rescued, and they don’t just let it happen—nor does anything happen to undermine their choices (as with Lucy).

Meanwhile, yes, Joshu is a creep—he's supposed to be one of those idol-obsessed losers who needs their women to be "pure"—but every time he acts out, he is summarily dealt with in the strongest, most unforgiving terms. He, like Ojiro, is trash, and that's the point. (Seriously, no other "main character" in JoJo has been dunked on nearly as much—or as hard—as Joshu. It's great. It's like Araki made him specifically to take out his frustrations on those kind of people.)

I do take issue with how Araki handled the woman who Ojiro held captive in Kira's apartment, but that's about it. I believe that every other instance of someone being violated has been done so tastefully (or as tastefully as one can handle someone being sexually assaulted, anyway). It's not exactly pleasant to read, ever, but should it be avoided altogether? I think as long as it's not degrading—or done expressly to titillate—it's fine.

Also, Mariip, I must disagree with your assessment of the cast; I could make an album with hundreds upon hundreds of dorky moments from JoJolion. It's absolutely brimming with them, even now.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
I really don’t want to weigh in on this discussion, as I realize it’ll seem like I’m dismissing people’s concerns, but I’m not entirely sure how most of the incidents being discussed—particularly those involving Yasuho, who has repeatedly fended for herself—are inherently problematic. None of the women in JoJolion have been robbed of their agency (except Daiya, arguably). They’re all strong minded, they all fight back, and they’re all in control of their own lives—including their sexuality. If they were merely used as props, that would be one thing—but they’re not. That’s an important distinction: They’re not damsels in distress. When they find themselves in compromising situations, with others attempting to take advantage of them, they don’t wait to be rescued, and they don’t just let it happen—nor does anything happen to undermine their choices (as with Lucy).

Meanwhile, yes, Joshu is a creep—he's supposed to be one of those idol-obsessed losers who needs their women to be "pure"—but every time he acts out, he is summarily dealt with in the strongest, most unforgiving terms. He, like Ojiro, is trash, and that's the point. (Seriously, no other "main character" in JoJo has been dunked on nearly as much—or as hard—as Joshu. It's great. It's like Araki made him specifically to take out his frustrations on those kind of people.)

I do take issue with how Araki handled the woman who Ojiro held captive in Kira's apartment, but that's about it. I believe that every other instance of someone being violated has been done so tastefully (or as tastefully as one can handle someone being sexually assaulted, anyway). It's not exactly pleasant to read, ever, but should it be avoided altogether? I think as long as it's not degrading—or done expressly to titillate—it's fine.

Also, Mariip, I must disagree with your assessment of the cast; I could make an album with hundreds upon hundreds of dorky moments from JoJolion. It's absolutely brimming with them, even now.
Haha, dorky wasn’t the best word, but what i meant is they’re a bit toned down/more natural than, say, the over the top madness that was the guys in Bucci gang or Duwang gangs, the jojolion folks are people I’d see around the street and not in comedy skits... not that euther of those are bad, just different approaches at writing characters.

As for what you said about the writing of women... it’s complicated. I agree with a lot of what you said but I also understand why people take issue with that... Jojolion has a lot of scenes of harassment, and a lot happens in a row, and it can trigger bad stuff on people, and not all of them serve a function besides setting the tone of the part.

I wished i had more time to dwelve into that, but my thesis is that if jojolion had less women in the main cast, say, just Yasuho, then even if she fended for herself we’d have an issue, because of the lack of female representation in the part. As it is though, even if yasuho has it rough, she IS handling herself pretty well, you’ve got women like Hato and Mitsuba who are strong and never got sexualized, Kakera got some cheesecake but she totally owns her sexuality... It ends up being the saga with most complicated scenes and yet the most empowering one after stone ocean, at least in this lil lady’s opinion x-x
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
Haha, dorky wasn’t the best word, but what i meant is they’re a bit toned down/more natural than, say, the over the top madness that was the guys in Bucci gang or Duwang gangs, the jojolion folks are people I’d see around the street and not in comedy skits... not that euther of those are bad, just different approaches at writing characters.
Fair enough. I can understand that perspective.

As for what you said about the writing of women... it’s complicated. I agree with a lot of what you said but I also understand why people take issue with that... Jojolion has a lot of scenes of harassment, and a lot happens in a row, and it can trigger bad stuff on people, and not all of them serve a function besides setting the tone of the part.
I get it—I've been sexually assaulted twice before, once by a close "friend"—but that's precisely why I don't have a problem with it: I know how ingrained it is in our culture, and how frequently it occurs. (I haven't dated a single woman who hasn't been sexually harassed/assaulted on multiple occasions.) Consequently, I don't think we should shy away from it, or pretend it doesn't happen as regularly as it does. What's important is how it's depicted, and in that respect, I believe Araki has done an admirable job of conveying the seriousness of such transgressions, while simultaneously being respectful towards the characters who he puts through those ordeals.

I'm open to discussing this in greater detail, but like you, I don't have time to delve into it at the moment. But I certainly appreciate your input.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Fair enough. I can understand that perspective.



I get it—I've been sexually assaulted twice before, once by a close "friend"—but that's precisely why I don't have a problem with it: I know how ingrained it is in our culture, and how frequently it occurs. (I haven't dated a single woman who hasn't been sexually harassed/assaulted on multiple occasions.) Consequently, I don't think we should shy away from it, or pretend it doesn't happen as regularly as it does. What's important is how it's depicted, and in that respect, I believe Araki has done an admirable job of conveying the seriousness of such transgressions, while simultaneously being respectful towards the characters who he puts through those ordeals.

I'm open to discussing this in greater detail, but like you, I don't have time to delve into it at the moment. But I certainly appreciate your input.
Well everyone experiences these cases differently, it’s important to not allow that kind of behavior be normalized, that’s why a lot of times people say complaining about these scenes is ti “shy away” from these problems you got to step back and think about the purpose of these scenes, and if they were really the best/only way to portray that.

Say, lucy in SBR got abused, why? If the reason was to prove Valentine is a prick, the part had already done that a lot, if the intention was adding a little of “mature content” then the thought process behind it might have a bit of an antiquated bias, and so on...

Some instances in jojolion are really hard to measure until the part is done, though... and honestly, i might be disintetised but i have the impression that these kind of scenes got a major cut in the later half of jojolion, while nothing of value has been lost, honestly lol
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
Well everyone experiences these cases differently, it’s important to not allow that kind of behavior be normalized, that’s why a lot of times people say complaining about these scenes is ti “shy away” from these problems you got to step back and think about the purpose of these scenes, and if they were really the best/only way to portray that.

Say, lucy in SBR got abused, why? If the reason was to prove Valentine is a prick, the part had already done that a lot, if the intention was adding a little of “mature content” then the thought process behind it might have a bit of an antiquated bias, and so on...

Some instances in jojolion are really hard to measure until the part is done, though... and honestly, i might be disintetised but i have the impression that these kind of scenes got a major cut in the later half of jojolion, while nothing of value has been lost, honestly lol
But is Araki really "normalizing" it? Personally, I don't think he is. I just think he's portraying the world as it is—as a vile, disgusting place filled with individuals preying upon others at all times. Anytime a character's done something heinous, it's been done to reinforce that character's preexisting traits, yes, but if that is central to the character's personality, then it should be emphasized. Joshu is a creep, so he continually does creepy things; Tsurugi is infatuated with Yasuho, so he always harasses her; Ojiro was a serial killer who, like Kira from Diamond is Unbreakable, seemed to specifically target women. These are people with nasty traits, and their characterization needs to reflect that consistently—or why even bother making those traits a part of their character in the first place? If he ignores who they are fundamentally (after having that side of them on full display), then he risks making it seem like he's downplaying that aspect of their personalities. That's just as potentially harmful.

Edit: It's a tricky balancing act, and while he doesn't always pull it off, I think some people here exaggerate about the issues (which do exist, but are minimal).
 
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GlassEmpires

Member
Dec 10, 2018
368
normalizing isn't always conscious behavior. you could say that joshu gets punished for his harassment, or you can say that joshu gets punished and the reward is the continued permission of his behavior. that the dynamic set up between him and yasuho is the agreement between the reader and author that such harassment can be permissible in our culture so long as you punished for it.

we see this dynamic play out all the time in media. and then people take that cue and try to play into the set up in real life and all heck breaks loose when the other half doesn't agree to it because they're not characters in a performance.

joshu is yet another scumbag character in a pile of scumbags who are accepted into various works' canons by being "punished" for it. that's normalizing.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
That tsurugi never gets punished because “he’s a child”, despite never really behaving like one is also a whole ‘nother can of worms...

But yeah Glass’ post is a nice way to put the problems on how Jojolion portrays things...

I like to say Jojolion is a great standard for Jojo, but outside of it... I’m not so sure.
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
normalizing isn't always conscious behavior. you could say that joshu gets punished for his harassment, or you can say that joshu gets punished and the reward is the continued permission of his behavior. that the dynamic set up between him and yasuho is the agreement between the reader and author that such harassment can be permissible in our culture so long as you punished for it.

we see this dynamic play out all the time in media. and then people take that cue and try to play into the set up in real life and all heck breaks loose when the other half doesn't agree to it because they're not characters in a performance.

joshu is yet another scumbag character in a pile of scumbags who are accepted into various works' canons by being "punished" for it. that's normalizing.
I'm not letting Joshu off for anything—he's a scumbag—but do you really mean to tell me you think characters like him have no place in fiction whatsoever? That just by being present—by acting out the way he does—you think he's contributing to the normalization of these behaviors because some of us, some of the readers, might be conditioned to think that because he was "punished," he's absolved of his crimes, and they may unconsciously extend that same thinking to their daily lives?

That's absurd to me. Those ideas, those beliefs, those behaviors have existed long before they were canonized in fiction, and they would continue to persist even if we decided to begin arbitrarily limiting what human interactions are deemed acceptable to explore in fiction. Placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the media we consume—rather than with us, the ones who the media is a reflection of in the first place—is not only misguided, it actively discourages introspection. We gain much more than we lose from sharing those experiences with each other.

In the end, I hold firm to my belief that it is entirely dependent on the execution, and I think the notion that such behavior being "punished" would make people think it's acceptable, as long as there is some form of punishment, is incorrect.
 
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GlassEmpires

Member
Dec 10, 2018
368
I'm not letting Joshu off for anything—he's a scumbag—but do you really mean to tell me you think characters like him have no place in fiction whatsoever? That just by being present—by acting out the way he does—you think he's contributing to the normalization of these behaviors because some of us, some of the readers, might unconsciously be conditioned to think that because he was "punished," he's absolved of his crimes, and they may extend that same thinking to their daily lives?

That's absurd to me. Those ideas, those beliefs, those behaviors have existed long before they were canonized in fiction, and they would continue to persist even if we decided to begin arbitrarily limiting what human interactions are deemed acceptable to explore in fiction. Placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the media we consume—rather than with us, the ones who the media is a reflection of in the first place—is not only misguided, it actively discourages introspection. We gain much more than we lose from sharing those experiences with each other.
you can create any character you want in your fiction, and having characters represent darker themes can be good and, yes, invite introspection. but i don't really want another stroheim either in jojo or the greater media landscape because i personally don't want anything close to positively portraying a nazi at the moment. and there's a big difference in joshu being a bad guy and nothing happening outside of him getting his deserved punishment and the work as whole engaging with that behavior and making efforts to rehabilitate him.

i'm not suggesting media is responsible for things, but it does have a role in continuing things.

sorry for the rambling nature of this, but i'm also trying to get my thoughts straightened out on this by writing things out
 

GlassEmpires

Member
Dec 10, 2018
368
i wouldn't put them in the same basket either, but i brought him up because he's relevant to the franchise and if jojo has to answer for joshu then stroheim would invariably enter the conversation. even if battle tendency is decades older and not as relevant as jojolion
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Man, you know Joshu is not ok when you still get videos/reviews defending his behavior and framing him as a victim of Josuke. Whatever is happening int the narrative to punish him is brushed of so easily that’s like saying “boys be boys”, and keep up on living... Same issue with Tsurugi. Joshu isn’t going to learn he’s shit, the people reading Jojolion might not read enough to realize his behavior is intended to be read as shitty, that’s where normalization of bad behaviors of young man comes into play.

If we were in a stage of civilization where people have enough awareness of toxic behavior, then sure, create all sorts of problematic characters and no one needs to question their existence. But we’re not.

I’m not asking for Araki to be the one to do this though, he is an older author and to me it’s enough that he wrote more than two women in one part, but that doesn’t mean that Jojolion isn’t a part of the problem, as it is not the solution of it, it’s a work of fiction and discussing it is a way to find a definitive answer to that balance imo.

No need to think people are being too harsh, you can still enjoy stuff knowing parts of it are problematic, and you can still write problematic characters as long as you handle them well. I don’t believe Joshu is handled well enough though, to think he did all that to his own mother and people barely did a thing because she isn’t a member of the family anymore is... pretty awful, and i hope he gets more than that table in the face, but revenge aint going to teach those joshu fans a thing.

edit:
This is the level the discussion is outside of era right now, i believe we’ve got plenty of reasons to be worried
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
My issue is I don't see it as entirely about saying "hey lust and darkness are apart of life". origami boy and california king jailbait's extremely inappropriate shit seems intended to be funny and harmless or legitimately sexy, respectively.

and yasuho's highly compressed set of near-rape experiences come in the midst of a wacky fight where she and josuke walk right past each other and shit, and is based on comical misunderstandings from joshu about what words she was saying. Its staged as a Mr Magoo episode, yet what's happening is extremely dark, and the disconnect between that seems to be totally unconscious.

I understand and like a lot of fiction that is about showcasing uncomfortable truths. But what is the "truth" here? I genuinely don't know. it may become clearer in retrospect once the part is done, but right now it kinda just seems like throwing a lot of stuff at the wall for no real purpose. and crucially, it doesn't actually seem particularly mature, though it clearly is intended to be. (many other aspects of the part do seem more mature, not arguing that.)

Lucy's assault honestly felt like it had a much clearer purpose to it, even if that purpose was extremely shallow.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
My issue is I don't see it as entirely about saying "hey lust and darkness are apart of life". origami boy and california king jailbait's extremely inappropriate shit seems intended to be funny and harmless or legitimately sexy, respectively.

and yasuho's highly compressed set of near-rape experiences come in the midst of a wacky fight where she and josuke walk right past each other and shit, and is based on comical misunderstandings from joshu about what words she was saying. Its staged as a Mr Magoo episode, yet what's happening is extremely dark, and the disconnect between that seems to be totally unconscious.

I understand and like a lot of fiction that is about showcasing uncomfortable truths. But what is the "truth" here? I genuinely don't know. it may become clearer in retrospect once the part is done, but right now it kinda just seems like throwing a lot of stuff at the wall for no real purpose. and crucially, it doesn't actually seem particularly mature, though it clearly is intended to be. (many other aspects of the part do seem more mature, not arguing that.)

Lucy's assault honestly felt like it had a much clearer purpose to it, even if that purpose was extremely shallow.
To be fair, araki never includes elements without a purpose, so probably they are there for a reason, but not one we’d see as a good one :/

(As it was with lucy but even more gratuitous)
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
My issue is I don't see it as entirely about saying "hey lust and darkness are apart of life". origami boy and california king jailbait's extremely inappropriate shit seems intended to be funny and harmless or legitimately sexy, respectively.
I really don't think Tsurugi's interactions with Yasuho have been played off for laughs, but if that's how you've interpreted what you've read so far, fair enough, I suppose. Daiya, yeah, there are issues with her characterization, as I've said, but I think she's really the only woman in JoJolion with those issues.

and yasuho's highly compressed set of near-rape experiences come in the midst of a wacky fight where she and josuke walk right past each other and shit, and is based on comical misunderstandings from joshu about what words she was saying. Its staged as a Mr Magoo episode, yet what's happening is extremely dark, and the disconnect between that seems to be totally unconscious.
Sorry, but "highly compressed set of near-rape experiences"? I only recall her nearly being raped once—by Joshu. The only other time she was assaulted, at least sexually, was when she was pulled into the passage connecting the Meditation Pine to the Higashikata family's basement, and groped by Tsurugi. That was sexual assault, no doubt, but "near-rape"?

Moreover, I must vehemently disagree with your assessment of that arc. It was a continually escalating series of horrifying misunderstandings, culminating in Yasuho giving into Tsurugi's demands out of desperation. There was nothing remotely comedic about that arc, other than the face Tsurugi chose to transpose onto everyone else using Paper Moon King (and Joshu being an unrelenting creep, if that's your idea of comedy—though it clearly wasn't Araki's intention for it to be taken that way). Again and again, Yasuho was put in increasingly stressful situations—whether it was having a heated confrontation with her mom, or nearly being raped by Joshu—that wore her down over time, and eventually resulted in her losing all hope. It was like watching a car crash in slow motion.
 
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Yuu di Hoshi

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Oct 25, 2017
1,465
Wonder how different SBR would've been if it started out immediately in Ultra Jump, since that's where I start to enjoy it
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
Sorry, but "highly compressed set of near-rape experiences"? I only recall her nearly being raped once—by Joshu. The only other time she was assaulted, at least sexually, was when she was pulled into the passage connecting the Meditation Pine to the Higashikata family's basement, and groped by Tsurugi. That was sexual assault, no doubt, but "near-rape"?

Moreover, I must vehemently disagree with your assessment of that arc. It was gripping and not at all "staged as a Mr. Magoo episode." It was a continually escalating series of horrifying misunderstandings, culminating in Yasuho giving into Tsurugi's demands out of desperation. There was nothing remotely comedic about that arc, other than the face Tsurugi chose to transpose onto everyone else using Paper Moon King (and Joshu being an unrelenting creep, if that's your idea of comedy—though it clearly wasn't Araki's intention for it to be taken that way). Yasuho was put in increasingly stressful situations—whether it was having a heated confrontation with her mom, or nearly being raped by Joshu—that wore her down over time and resulted in her losing all hope. It was like watching someone have a mental breakdown in slow motion. I don't even remember so much as cracking a smile while reading that arc; it was incredibly tense and unsettling.
immediately after she escapes from joshu she tries to jump into a police car so they can take her to jail and she can avoid any further misunderstandings. however she was seeing the car and occupants as police when they were instead seemingly some generic thugs who thought she was offering herself to them, and they tear at her clothes and try to get her to strip before she escapes. She runs away clutching at the broken straps of her top. Following that is when she goes home with Tsurugi, where she is drugged by the stone man though pills in her glass of water, and then he waterboards her awake before putting her back to sleep again. While the last one is not sexual in motive, you honestly can't be telling me that drugging and torturing a woman as she sleeps doesn't have certain implications and is intended to give the reader an impression of what COULD happen, before they actually know the details of the situation.

---

The face confusion sequence definitely not played for laughs, but it is not played deadly serious either. There are all sorts of misunderstandings that could come from Tsurugi's power, but Yasuho is gravitated towards a specific type of trouble at the climax of that arc, and the tone is inscrutable. Following that arc she sleeps through a fairly long fight where she is used as bait/a hostage.

She never is given a moment where she processes what she went through; her character seems to continue on as though all that happened was the typical sort of stuff that happens during a stand fight for most male characters. Her experience seems to have gone the way it did specifically because she was a woman, and there doesn't seem to be any real larger message in there about what that implies.

Sexual assault is common, but nothing about what happened there besides what the stone man does is even close to accurately representing the power dynamics and circumstances of it. The Stone Man's attack on Yasuho feels coherent as both a metaphor and reality, but whatever teeth it might have had are dulled by the cartoonish and hyper-literal depictions that preceded it.

I feel the same about Jobin's bully, who tries to get jobin to burn down the house of a girl who found out that they were tricking him into stealing his mom's underwear and taking pictures of her in the shower, and then threatens to rape and murder his mom. This is a child, somewhere around 10 years old I think, who is saying this.
I'm clearly supposed to be shocked, but instead I just feel like there's a total lack of subtlety and humanity in any of that. I don't believe it, and it doesn't feel earned.

It doesn't shock or scandalize me. It simply has no effect but confusing me, because I don't really understand what the point of overcommiting like this is.

I don't know. maybe that doesn't make much sense. If you're finding the part entertaining, I have to say that I am too! But there are just many things about it and its tone that I don't understand, even after 67 chapters, and those things can't be explained as simply as "bad things happen in the world". Other Jojo parts focus on that too, and do it in a much more narratively conventional and comprehensible way. Part 4, for example. So I'm just having trouble seeing what angle this part is coming at that from, though it is clear it is a different angle.
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
immediately after she escapes from joshu she tries to jump into a police car so they can take her to jail and she can avoid any further misunderstandings. however she was seeing the car and occupants as police when they were instead seemingly some generic thugs who thought she was offering herself to them, and they tear at her clothes and try to get her to strip before she escapes. She runs away clutching at the broken straps of her top. Following that is when she goes home with Tsurugi, where she is drugged by the stone man though pills in her glass of water, and then he waterboards her awake before putting her back to sleep again. While the last one is not sexual in motive, you honestly can't be telling me that drugging and torturing a woman as she sleeps doesn't have certain implications and is intended to give the reader an impression of what COULD happen, before they actually know the details of the situation.
Okay, I'll admit—I forgot about the interaction she had with the occupants of that car following her encounter with Joshu. That isn't great, yeah. I'm glad both incidents happen in the same chapter; it makes it easier to just assume Araki went off his meds that month and all the sick, perverse thoughts he had floating around his head came bursting out all at once in an uncontrolled stream of consciousness.

As for Yotsuyu's attack on Yasuho, I'm curious—at what point does he drug the water? I went back to check, but I couldn't find anything. Are you certain you're not mixing up certain aspects of the two incidents? When she got into the car with those strangers, they did attempt—unsuccessfully—to drug her by forcing her to swallow a pill. But I don't see anything like that with Yotsuyu; he just goes straight for the kill.

The face confusion sequence definitely not played for laughs, but it is not played deadly serious either. There are all sorts of misunderstandings that could come from Tsurugi's power, but Yasuho is gravitated towards a specific type of trouble at the climax of that arc, and the tone is inscrutable. Following that arc she sleeps through a fairly long fight where she is used as bait/a hostage.

She never is given a moment where she processes what she went through; her character seems to continue on as though all that happened was the typical sort of stuff that happens during a stand fight for most male characters. Her experience seems to have gone the way it did specifically because she was a woman, and there doesn't seem to be any real larger message in there about what that implies.
By "gone the way it did specifically because she was a woman," I'm not sure what you're trying to say—that because she was a woman, she was subjected to a rape attempt? That if it was Josuke, it would've played out differently (presumably because of some unconscious bias Araki has)? The very same Josuke who, when his memories were being plucked from his head thanks to California King Bed, was nearly raped by Daiya? (Though he was willing to humor her advances, as he was attracted to her, I'll remind you that it was not informed consent, due to his missing memories.) For that reason alone, your assertion—the notion that Yasuho was treated differently because of her sex—can be easily discarded.

More importantly, however, you correctly point out that there is never "a moment where she processes what she went through," but when does that ever happen in this series? There are characters in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure who have gone through far more traumatic events, who have experienced things that would "break" the human mind, but more often than not come out of it unscathed, completely unshaken by what they've experienced. Men, women, children—everyone. In fact, in this series, it's rare for a character to ever internalize their trauma—even when it's a part of their backstory—and when they do, it usually doesn't manifest in any meaningful way (either through their characterization, or their actions).

Why are characters who haven't murdered before, who take a life for the first time during the course of their journey, not held to the same standard (as a woman who's survived an attempted rape)? Are you suggesting that sexual assault is more traumatizing to a woman than killing (or a Stand battle) is to a man? What are your thoughts on the casual, almost entirely thoughtless murder that litters the series without so much as a moment of reflection from its main characters? What about how the characters routinely brush off existential threats that should leave them questioning the very nature of reality? Isn't all of that equally bothersome to you? (You don't have to answer any of those questions. I'm purposely being argumentative right now because I'm in a bad mood. Apologies.)

Admittedly, I don't disagree with you that Yasuho should've had a moment to reflect on what happened to her, but my point is that Araki has never treated trauma—physical or psychological—as significant, or long-lasting (except in rare occasions, when it's central to the narrative). It's one of the things that has always bothered me about his writing, though I understand why he doesn't linger on it. I'm sure that to Araki, it seems like it would "unnecessarily" complicate the storytelling process, and create bloat. That's unfortunate, because I think when he focuses on fleshing out his characters, that's when he really shines. (Thankfully, besides a few missteps—no more than any other part—I believe he's done a great job in that respect with JoJolion.)

Sexual assault is common, but nothing about what happened there besides what the stone man does is even close to accurately representing the power dynamics and circumstances of it. The Stone Man's attack on Yasuho feels coherent as both a metaphor and reality, but whatever teeth it might have had are dulled by the cartoonish and hyper-literal depictions that preceded it.
I want you to elaborate on this point, because it confuses me. How is it that what Yotsuyu does is more "accurately [representative of] the power dynamics and circumstances of [sexual assault]"? You say it "feels coherent as both a metaphor and reality," but what does that mean to you exactly? How are the depictions of sexual assault that precede it more "cartoonish and hyper-literal depictions"? I suspect I know what you're getting at—that because it's a more traditionally framed sexual assault (except it's not), with none of the absurdity from the previous arc, it's more valid—but I hope not.

I feel the same about Jobin's bully, who tries to get jobin to burn down the house of a girl who found out that they were tricking him into stealing his mom's underwear and taking pictures of her in the shower, and then threatens to rape and murder his mom. This is a child, somewhere around 10 years old I think, who is saying this.
I'm clearly supposed to be shocked, but instead I just feel like there's a total lack of subtlety and humanity in any of that. I don't believe it, and it doesn't feel earned.
It doesn't shock or scandalize me. It simply has no effect but confusing me, because I don't really understand what the point of overcommiting like this is.
I don't think you're supposed to be shocked. While that may be your interpretation, I don’t think it's accurate. Kids, especially bullies, say comically evil things all the time. Were you never bullied growing up? I was. Not as mercilessly as Jobin, mind you, but enough to know firsthand how cruel children can be to their peers. What his bully tells him is just an intimidation tactic. It doesn't feel earned because it's not. That's the point. It's nothing more than the posturing of a cowardly fool. There's no "subtlety and humanity in any of that" because it's a child who's in over his head, who's desperate, and who's lashing out because they don't know what to do, and they're frustrated. That's all there is to it. (And when he threatens Jobin in front of his friends, it's to maintain his "tough guy" persona. It's all about keeping up appearances for him.)

I don't know. maybe that doesn't make much sense. If you're finding the part entertaining, I have to say that I am too! But there are just many things about it and its tone that I don't understand, even after 67 chapters, and those things can't be explained as simply as "bad things happen in the world". Other Jojo parts focus on that too, and do it in a much more narratively conventional and comprehensible way. Part 4, for example. So I'm just having trouble seeing what angle this part is coming at that from, though it is clear it is a different angle.
It makes sense, though I respectfully disagree with a fair bit of it, as I believe many of your issues are entirely subjective and rooted in your own interpretation of the events, and aren't representative of what Araki actually intended to convey. Your complaint about the bully, for example, is completely baffling to me. No offense, but you seem to be reading too deeply into things that have no "purpose." The kid was just being an edgy little prick, but you're here trying to divine some deeper meaning from it, and because you can't find it—because it doesn't exist—now you're convinced that Araki was merely trying to "shock" you or make the story seem more "mature," when all he was doing was writing a bully... being a bully.

Edit: You know what—we can carry on this discussion over PM if you want. I don't want to bog down this thread with a protracted back and forth.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Man at what point humanity got where i go into a forum and someone says a bully telling a kid he’s gonna rape his mother is considered just an edgy kid’s usual behavior? I’m sorry but this is a pretty low bar for humanity, buddy, this is some serious normalizarion of violence torwards women :/
 

Deileon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
120
Man at what point humanity got where i go into a forum and someone says a bully telling a kid he’s gonna rape his mother is considered just an edgy kid’s usual behavior? I’m sorry but this is a pretty low bar for humanity, buddy, this is some serious normalizarion of violence torwards women :/
I can only speak to my personal experiences, but I've heard all of that before—and worse. Maybe the bar for humanity really is just that low? (I think it is; most of humanity is garbage.) I'm happy for you that you've apparently never had the misfortune of experiencing it firsthand yourself, but that doesn't make my experience—or the experience of countless others—any less real.

I think we should probably end this conversation now; there's nothing more to be gained, here. I have a fundamental difference of opinion when it comes to storytelling and the normalization of behavior through fiction. We'll only go in circles at this point.
 
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Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
I think ive figured it out. This part is taking on the aesthetic of soap operas like twin peaks and riverdale, big little lies, ect. backstabbing, multiple factions, people changing sides and making alliances all the time and most of them being impossibly shitty, all in service of a goal that could make them rich or save them from a horrible fate somehow. sexuality is a huge part of those shows, especially when it is inappropriate or traumatic.

---
a 12 year old kid saying "im going to fuck your mom" is plausible. a 12 year old kid saying "I'm going to kill YOU" is plausible. a 12 year old wealthy and sheltered kid ACTUALLY attempting to murder a fellow classmate AND their Entire Family SOLELY because they saw him creeping on some underwear, and simultaneously threatening to ~specifically~ Rape AND Murder the mother of the child he's trying to use as a patsy: this is a cartoon. this is bugs bunny from hell.

You should not be trying to convince me that is realistic, but instead convince me of what theme or aesthetic that unreality fits into. What are the influences, where are the homages. And I have figured it out on my own. It's a jojo take on a hyper-torrid soap opera.

California King Underage Girl is Audrey Horne trying to sleep with Agent Cooper, and then becoming a source of info and an ally once he refuses her.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
Funny comparing Jojolion to soap operas, because to me Phantom Blood is 100% inspired by a mexican telenovela with a bunch of vampire stuffs

Sometimes i look at Dio and all i see is Paola Bracho
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
Funny comparing Jojolion to soap operas, because to me Phantom Blood is 100% inspired by a mexican telenovela with a bunch of vampire stuffs

Sometimes i look at Dio and all i see is Paola Bracho
oh absolutely, I definitely see that. each part feels like a total genre shift, even as far back as 1-2
 

Brock Reiher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,570
we should appreciate that Jonny's primary mode of attack is launching torn off fingernails

who tf would think of that
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
we should appreciate that Jonny's primary mode of attack is launching torn off fingernails

who tf would think of that
i love how his stand levels up based on his mastery of a specific technique. if stands are a reflection of your personality it shows that his personality was totally consumed with learning how to do spin tricks, and thats just such a delightfully shallow thing to me.

I bet level 5 is using the rotation of a t-rex to launch shots. dio truly is the most powerful person in existence
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,545
is this the sets for the anime blue rays? if its a trio i expect it to follow the ost's lead (giorno, bruno, diavolo)
That’s the eight cover and they started repeating characters... gonna be giorno or diavolo as there’s only one or two left i guess, you cant repeat bruno and not giorno and ger needs a cover so id go for that...

Though they could have used polnaleff, boss and the giorno with ger since it’s another stand o- o(or doppio before the boss sono one gets repeated but cmon
 

Force_XXI

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,685
Saw this in the comments of Wekapipo(Wake Up People) by Soul'd Out

IN THE WEST SIDE OF NAPLES BORN AND RAISED
GUARDING THE ROYALS IS WHERE I SPENT MOST OF MY DAYS
THROWING STEEL BALLS AND BEING A MISTER
UNTIL SOME RICH FUCKER MESSED WITH MY SISTER
I THREW ONE STEEL BALL AND HIS LIFE JUST VANISHED AND THE KING SAID "LISTEN, YOU'RE REALLY BANISHED"

Fresh Prince of Bel Air theme for those that dont know lol
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
Tsurugi sounds worse than Joshu.
honestly, no. ive come around on him a bit since he's going through some tough stuff, and he's mostly kept his hands to himself. joshu has no depth or pathos. joshu is just joshu.

crucially, he wasn't actually trying to put yasuho in the fucked up situations he did, he was just trying to keep her from meeting josuke. i can forgive him for that.
 

RedHoodedOwl

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,586
honestly, no. ive come around on him a bit since he's going through some tough stuff, and he's mostly kept his hands to himself. joshu has no depth or pathos. joshu is just joshu.

crucially, he wasn't actually trying to put yasuho in the fucked up situations he did, he was just trying to keep her from meeting josuke. i can forgive him for that.
Joshu is reprehensible. He is very similar to Hazamada.
 

Ebrietas-

Member
Mar 2, 2019
180
I feel like he's being built up to die in a horrible way due to his own greed.
Not happening. Araki definitely likes Joshu's character and his antics

if it's not that then he'll just be useless and in the background. No way he gets legitimately involved in the plot without being a villain who gets a painful end.
Joshu is obviously not a villain. Like it or not but he is treated as a part of the main cast of Jojolion. He even gets his own mini arcs
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,883
Not happening. Araki definitely likes Joshu's character and his antics



Joshu is obviously not a villain. Like it or not but he is treated as a part of the main cast of Jojolion. He even gets his own mini arcs
The main cast is comprised of people who change their allignment constantly (other than Jojo and Yasuho). There are at least 3 factions currently, and it's totally up in the air as to who will be on what side in the end.

His arcs don't currently do anything to bring him into the main plot. If he keeps only getting things like that to do and the occasional reminder to everyone else that he's an asshole, he'll end the series as a fairly minor influence on it. Him being clueless but forced to defend himself in the final battle (whatever that is) still counts as minor.

Also, Jobin and Tsurugi just got their own self-contained arc.

Like I said before, thinking of this as a soap opera, we often follow characters that are unlikable for a time, even if they aren't that important. (not to imply job and tsu aren't important)

I'm not talking about what I WANT to happen necessarily (which is for a chapter to start with him having died offscreen of the flu) but what directions I think the story is likely to go. The scene where Jobin tries to get Joshu to play the part of the "anime friend" for Josuke felt to me like a statement that he would never come around to being anything but a suck-up who doesn't care about things outside his world.