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Josh Brolin's Thanos vs. Heath Ledger's Joker (IW Spoilers)
- Thread starter Deepwater
- Start date
The point is to provide your own thoughts and evidence, arguments and counter arguments to prove a point. You know, actual discussion with merit?
Ledger having better performances in his own career just goes to show that this performance in particular isn't worthy of that degree of praise
If youre opinion is all you have to offer thats fine but, if you don't care to articulate and counter why bother entering a discussion, or more acurately, a debate in the first place?
Thano's crush with death is ridiculous, I'm happy they changed it for the movie.
You can articulate them brilliantly, call them " arguments" but they will still be your opinions. Nothing you or I say will be more than our own opinion. We are not stating unarguable facts here.
Also, we are comparing Ledger to Thanos not Ledger vs. Ledger. I don't know how Ledger having better roles diminishes his Joker , if anything it just illustrates how brilliant a talent he was, that the role of a lifetime for many wasn't even the best of his career
Imagine watching No Country for Old Men and the writing not reinforce the laws of the world and our place wihin it. Do you think the ending would be as satisfying? No. Because you can't assune human emotion to a script, you need to build and reinforce or else you don't got much substance.
Thanos was good, but Heath was perfect, and this isn't even getting into Heath's naunces that went beyond just delivering lines (Brolin), the twitches, expressions and body language was terrifying, he completely embodied a maniac that took pleasure in his insanity. Thanos, compared to MCU villians is in a class of his own, but he is nowhere near to Heaths Joker, most of that is down to Heath himself and the material he worked with.
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Not too mention there was that whole scene with child Gamora before that.
Imagine watching a movie, and seeing a daughter kill the father that raised, and not understanding why she is crying.
Some things truly don't require much explaining.
Wait a minute.
The holy trinity of cinematic villains in general? Word? What's the threshold here? Would someone like Annie Wilkes in Misery or Norman Bates in Psycho count?
And killing half life because 'balance' is not?with magic stones that could make entire planets appear?
Imagine if it makes it in, like after killing half the population 'Death' appears before Thanos and he finds her beautiful, so to impress her he goes insane and decides to kill the other half
You mean the scene where Thanos picks out a random child and that sets up his perspective on his love for Gamora. Or how about him torturing her sister for info? Or how about how Gamora repeatedly states she hates Thanos and that chair. It's not set up well. I am shocked so many people find that type of writing good.
This is kind of handwaving the point. Stating an opinion with a lack of articulation or supporting evidence isn't an argument. Its a statement. Its not the same thing and its also not worth discussing. Arguments and supporting evidence can be disputed, an opinion cannot.
Thanks but I've read the thread and layed out both my opinions and arguments and you're attempting to dispute one point while ignoring the argument as a whole. Which was that I don't believe Ledger's Joker to be a performance worthy of "best in cinema history" and it not even being Ledger's best performance kind of ruins that.
Brolin and Ledger accomplish their goals as villains equally as well in the films they occupy. But neither is perfect and both are flawed, largely as a result of the films they occupy and the stories they try to tell rather than the performances themselves. Neither are a perfect representation of the character or even really the ideals said character represents and for that reason while Ledger's performance is a strong one, nobody really wins in this matchup.
Killing half the population to balance things out, for me, is the most realistic cause a villain ever did on screen.
If I had no moral, I'd probably buy that cause.
You do if you set up the character as not loving him at all. You don't seem to understand what a payoff means. These things have to be built up.
I never thought of The Joker as a genuine villain ("How is this guy Batman's arch-nemesis? Is Batman, like, really afraid of clowns?") until Ledger's performance.
No MCU hero or villain seems real-life possible. Ledger's TJ was true sociopathic genius, both absurd in his motivation and realistic in his methods. Only villain I can really put beside him is Anton Chigurh. Authenticity is the key.
No MCU hero or villain seems real-life possible. Ledger's TJ was true sociopathic genius, both absurd in his motivation and realistic in his methods. Only villain I can really put beside him is Anton Chigurh. Authenticity is the key.
I didn't say it was good writing, but it wasn't strange to see Gamora crying after that scene.
So when the species repopulate and youre met with the same issues do you just gather the infinity stones again or what? Its not really a permenant solution and arguably pretty silly.
The year is 2018 and we still have people willing to take part in subpar spatula arguments. Amazing.
Why isn't it? Yeah, we can assume why but do you believe it is appropriate given her previous iron-clad stance against Thanos?
HIs example, Gamora's planet, is thriving. He gives them a chance to fix things, if they dont, they're doomed.
Makes perfect sense.
Appropriate, yes. There was love there once, hell Thanos even states after the illusion washes away that she stood for the same beliefs at one point.
His Joker is still pretty damn good if you go back and watch it.
But you never get the sense that the Joker is truly unstoppable. He could be easily killed at any time, it's just that Batman refuses to do so. That one rule is the only thing that prevents Bruce from being superior to the Joker. But, with that rule in place, they are on a level playing field. The Joker has his match in Batman. They are opposite, yet equal forces. Order vs. Chaos. The dynamic between those two is kind of like the one between Light and L in Death Note. There exists no such dynamic between Thanos and anyone else in Infinity War. He completely outclasses eveyone. There's no one to "keep him check," like Batman does to Joker in TDK.
Ok? That doesn't actually mean anything. She is a completely different person who hasn't faltered from her position.
Even then, look at how little is written of their relationship. This isn't earned.
Oh I know it's good but it's lessened on me because I've seen the movie so much not that I haven't seen it in awhile or anything. Joker was batshit crazy but Thanos had a kind of calm storm about him and I think I liked that better.
We are told by Gamora that she hates her father, that he made her life miserable, and that she wants to kill him. We are shown that, despite his madness and general cruelty, Thanos is tender and affectionate to Gamora, despite her distaste for him. When Gamora finally comes in contact with Thanos, the man who raised her, and deals a seemingly killing blow, instead of standing triumphantly above him, she weeps.
I honestly don't know how a person could digest all of that and come out confused.
I think you've nailed it for me. Thanos does indeed feel like a calm, calculated, focused storm.
I cant wait to go see the movie again next friday with my two kids.
Yep, felt like forced exposition, the child quickly forgetting her parents with Thanos distraction seemed weak, but i let that go, because its MCU. I know she never forgave him but that didn't line up with her instant loss for motherly love in her time of anguish.
We know about their relationship through Gamora's interactions with Nebula. Being the favorite daughter, betraying him, loathing him, etc.
Do you really believe there was enough exploration between Thanos and Gamora to warrant that? Like, I would 100% understand if leading up you explore more of their relationship but it's just very simple observational or exposition on how bad he treated his kids. The entire situation boils down to this:
- Gamora is taken by Thanos
- Thanos pits Nebula and Gamora against each other
- Thanos abuses both of them regardless
- Thanos thinks more highly of Gamora because she is strong
- Gamora hates Thanos for killing her family and abusing her and her adoptive siblings
- Gamora wants Thanos dead
You have my shield.
(Ledger was legit great, but people acting like Thanos wasn't scary are trippin)
This is exactly how I feel. Heath Ledger's Joker elicits feelings of fear, intimidation, and uncertainty, but never hatred. I admire Ledger's Joker as an iconic and awesome movie character. But I fucking hate Thanos. I hate him as if he personally killed someone I love. I hated him within five minutes of the movie. I want to see him get his shit kicked in by the Avengers. I never felt that way with the Joker. This is why Thanos is the more effective villain.
Yes, I do think there was enough explanation of Thanos and Gamora's relationship to warrant the reaction. At least, I felt no confusion during the scene whatsoever.
My feeling at the time was that the relationships between children and the parents that abused them is often complicated. Gamora's crying didn't surprise me at all.
It's not about confusion. I guarantee no one is actually failing to understand, it's the fact it doesn't feel earned considering how their relationship has played out on screen.
Thanos was alright, he's a villain out to do something nothing to memorable. The best parts of infinity war were just watching the heroes be themselves and doing hero shit.
Joker is legendary, he had people shook. Joker owned 2008. Best villain ever in cinematic history for me.
Joker is legendary, he had people shook. Joker owned 2008. Best villain ever in cinematic history for me.
I disagree. The scene worked fine and fit Gamora's character.
How hard is it to understand Thanos' motivations?
The whole movie is about sacrifice. Survival of the fittest. Since he was introduced in Avengers, his whole shtick has been putting his children to the test to see who deserves to be his child.
From refering to Ronan as "boy" as he is disobedient, to not even noticing Nebula, to calling his Black Order his "children", to calling Ebony Maw by his name, to calling Gamora his "favorite daughter" who has earned her stripes
Thanos killing half the population is him trying to teach everyone that sustainablity requires sacrifice. In his eyes he is giving an opportunity for other species to learn how to survive by being able to sacrifice what is necessary to survive.
If he just used the gauntlet to create unlimited resources, all the species would not understand what needs to be done to survive.
He is not trying to play god, and give everyone their wants. He believes, which has been hinted at in both Guardians movies, that you need to earn your right to live.
He is not that father that spoils his children. He is one where he teaches his guides his children to earn everything for themselves.
Him providing unlimited resources would be completely out of character of how he's been portrayed in previous movies.
The whole movie is about sacrifice. Survival of the fittest. Since he was introduced in Avengers, his whole shtick has been putting his children to the test to see who deserves to be his child.
From refering to Ronan as "boy" as he is disobedient, to not even noticing Nebula, to calling his Black Order his "children", to calling Ebony Maw by his name, to calling Gamora his "favorite daughter" who has earned her stripes
Thanos killing half the population is him trying to teach everyone that sustainablity requires sacrifice. In his eyes he is giving an opportunity for other species to learn how to survive by being able to sacrifice what is necessary to survive.
If he just used the gauntlet to create unlimited resources, all the species would not understand what needs to be done to survive.
He is not trying to play god, and give everyone their wants. He believes, which has been hinted at in both Guardians movies, that you need to earn your right to live.
He is not that father that spoils his children. He is one where he teaches his guides his children to earn everything for themselves.
Him providing unlimited resources would be completely out of character of how he's been portrayed in previous movies.
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Well, yeah, you're on a place designed to discuss.
At its core, though, these posts references me seem to come from a place of envy. I get it, y'all wanna trump me but can't so slights be the way.
Hip hop jolly yo
My wife and I had an hour-long argument on Thanos versus Heath Ledger's Joker. She thought Thanos was too muddled, too brooding, too muted to interest her. She didn't like how we weren't shown what Thanos' motivation really was. Sure we knew he was nihilistic, and we definitely saw he proved it, but she wanted to know why. I brought up Joker and how we saw he was the force of sheer chaos that everyone had to react to, and we never learned anything about why he was the way he was, and I asked her why she was fine with Joker, but not Thanos. And then we got to talking about how Joker and Thanos are interesting sides of the same coin. One wants chaos, one wants balance, distrusts the people of the galaxy to deal with things on their own, wants to control the chaos of people, and I was like Thanos is like if Batman were evil and had absolute power. And she's all well that's why I don't like him. She doesn't like Batman. We almost divorced. But it's cool, she likes Spidey, and that's who I'm hot for.
But they show explicitly why Thanos does what he does while on Titan.
Your whole argument kind of fall apart though considering Thanos doesn't give two shits about Nebula. Gamora has always been the favorite by far, while Nebula was seen as a disappointment. And after his assassination attempt by Nebula, he even said killing her is a waste of scraps (metal).
I gotta agree with this. You're not gonna see a million Thanos Halloween costumes, or Melvin, Melvin, brother of Thanos.