~Song as old as rhyme... beauty and the beast~
Some of them are really boring and dry. But you can say the same thing for SCG tooA bit confused by that criticism of commentators from GerryT. Even if you don't like it I don't think you can say WotC is not putting a lot of effort into the commentator side.
Man, I feel those pains so hard. Nothing makes me want to strangle someone more than the constant flicking of the corners of cards. It's the legitimate most annoying thing so many Magic players do.
He is going to have to pay it back.Got to give him a hand for taking the free flight and room for the week before posting this.
Some of them are really boring and dry. But you can say the same thing for SCG too
Everyone getting all up-in-arms over direct sales is funny on so many fronts to me. The general assumption that if something is bad for the LGS it's bad for the game is inherently, obviously, flawed. That viewpoint somehow neglects the possibility that things that LGSs do could possibly be *bad* for the game. I'm finding out through all of this that a lot of people are paying way over MSRP for their boxes. That's crazy to me! People getting price gouged, on an apparently wide scale, is that good for the game? I'm not inclined to think so.
People are decrying Wizards for chasing short term profits, completely oblivious to any long term profit that they actually stand to make. They also seem basically unwilling to confront the inevitability of direct sales. Did we all so quickly forget that Wizards used to do direct sales? And had a whole line of their own name brand stores? For quite a while? One of the end games of rampant counterfeiting, that Wizards clearly can't directly stop, is direct sales being forced back into the open as a secondary market price control method.
There's a fair amount of people henny-pennying over this. As if a couple weeks ago they weren't acting like BaB exclusives weren't Wizards greatest gift to LGSs. The actually destructive mentality here is that LGSs are somehow infallible. That's how we get stupid shit like the Reserved List. Acting like one group actually controls the totality of magic is delusional.
Everyone getting all up-in-arms over direct sales is funny on so many fronts to me. The general assumption that if something is bad for the LGS it's bad for the game is inherently, obviously, flawed. That viewpoint somehow neglects the possibility that things that LGSs do could possibly be *bad* for the game. I'm finding out through all of this that a lot of people are paying way over MSRP for their boxes. That's crazy to me! People getting price gouged, on an apparently wide scale, is that good for the game? I'm not inclined to think so.
People are decrying Wizards for chasing short term profits, completely oblivious to any long term profit that they actually stand to make. They also seem basically unwilling to confront the inevitability of direct sales. Did we all so quickly forget that Wizards used to do direct sales? And had a whole line of their own name brand stores? For quite a while? One of the end games of rampant counterfeiting, that Wizards clearly can't directly stop, is direct sales being forced back into the open as a secondary market price control method.
There's a fair amount of people henny-pennying over this. As if a couple weeks ago they weren't acting like BaB exclusives weren't Wizards greatest gift to LGSs. The actually destructive mentality here is that LGSs are somehow infallible. That's how we get stupid shit like the Reserved List. Acting like one group actually controls the totality of magic is delusional.
I agree. The price gouging by LGSs is insane and should have been totally unacceptable. I think people get into the mentality that LGSs do something for them when really it's the other way around.
The MSRP for a standard set booster box is $143 and some change. Who is paying more than that?
LGS provide product, a place for people to interact and play Magic with each other casually and competitively, run prerelease events, etc. I couldn't disagree with you more. "Price-gouging." Do you know how much it costs to run a store?
The concern with people with regards to LGS brick-and-mortar and game health isn't so much that any given LGS is good for the community it's in, it's that it's good for the game on the larger scale. The idea is that LGS locations effectively act as a massive source of advertising and a sort of player support network that keeps people interested in Magic from just saying, "Oh, but I don't know anyone who plays" and writing it off.
This actually makes this whole thing even crazier to me. I was under the impression that MSRP for a box was like $100-$115. So widely available is the $100 price point that I was completely incredulous to this. Paying $143 for a box is insanity. I doubt any LGS that is charging this for a box sustainably would actually be effected by *any kind* of direct sales. Because the end consumer has been able to get $100 boxes from all of these locations for years.
'It costs money to run a store' is not a defense for 'charging more than is acceptable for an item to the general detriment of the community'. Theoretically, this kind of thing sorts itself out with competition. I've never experienced an LGS that doesn't do (apparently under MSRP) $100 boxes. But in reading the discussion about direct sales, $143 boxes appear to be way more common than I would have imagined.
LGSs totally play an important role in the healthy ecosystem of any given game. Direct sales has never stopped any game from still being perfectly viable LGS products. Warhammer products are an obvious comparison. Direct sales available, and yet huge crowds for it at any LGS I've been to that has proper floorspace. Direct sales doesn't destroy viability, it just caps profitability on sealed product.
An aside: People can't argue that amazon et all will undercut LGSs by a significant margin and argue that Wizards is going for a cash grab. Wizards wouldn't actually make any extra money from this if they offered amazon the same prices that distributors get. Wizards can very easily for big retails price point to stay at around $100 by charging more than they charge distributors. That's how they make money here. In all likelihood, these relationships have been in place for a while and it's only getting formalized now. The increasing proliferation of masters sets into big retail should have made it very obvious that this was happening.
If they wanted to be pissed at $100 online boxes they should have been pissed a decade ago.
Really, people getting up in arms about this is mind boggling to me.
I have never heard of a shop charging 143 for a box and I live in the Northeast where we have plenty of Magic stores, so maybe that's just from my point of view. If someone lives in an area where there's not much competition and the LGS are charging 143 and taking advantage of that fact then I would agree that's gouging, I was disagreeing with the sentiment that LGS shouldn't be making some kind of profit off of the boxes.
They can't do that. It would turn it into actual gambling.Sorry, I was reacting to seeing people saying they have LGSs doing $143, assuming that $100 is the obvious fair price that we're working towards. LGSs profit just fine off a $100 box. Obviously not as much as $143, but its still fair profit.
Just wait until Wizards is forced into direct singles sales (or some equivalent). That's when profits will actually be threatened.
Thankfully my store is pretty diverse as it's a card game/hobby game/RPG book/board game/comic book shop, so they're not reliant on any one of those industries to stay afloat.
There is no MSRP for a box, just for individual packs. If you add up the MSRP for each pack ($3.99) it comes to $143.64, which is the official MSRP for a box. No stores actually sell boxes at that price though. Most stores will sell in the $90~$115 range depending on the local market. $100 a box is pretty common around here.This actually makes this whole thing even crazier to me. I was under the impression that MSRP for a box was like $100-$115. So widely available is the $100 price point that I was completely incredulous to this. Paying $143 for a box is insanity. I doubt any LGS that is charging this for a box sustainably would actually be effected by *any kind* of direct sales. Because the end consumer has been able to get $100 boxes from all of these locations for years.
That retail comes with a lot more overhead than warehouse space has been an issue with retail for the last couple of decades. Ultimately, it's up to the people running the game stores to figure out how to stay profitable and keep the lights on, but unlike a lot of other industries, there's a tension with tabletop gaming because the biggest competition isn't actually the other companies in the market, but activities outside of the market (movies, bars, cafes, etc.) Plenty of people play games at home, but a big chunk of the segment doesn't for various reasons. If they don't have a place to play, then they simply won't and will do something else. If all of a store's customers are buying their product elsewhere, but still using the space to play, the store is going to have a difficult time staying open.'It costs money to run a store' is not a defense for 'charging more than is acceptable for an item to the general detriment of the community'.
Minis gaming (especially ones where you build and paint the models) have a bit of built-in safety valve because they take up a lot of space both when playing and when painting. Depending on where you are, a lot of people simply don't have the space or the setup to do that sort of stuff at home. On top of that, unlike a lot of other games, minis games have a more difficult time becoming commoditized, both because of their physicality and because companies like Games Workshop actively work to prevent it (similar to Nintendo). Magic's business model, on the other hand, basically forces cards to to be commoditized. If you buy a Warhammer battle force, you know exactly what you're getting. If you buy a booster box, you get a ton of stuff that you likely don't want or need.LGSs totally play an important role in the healthy ecosystem of any given game. Direct sales has never stopped any game from still being perfectly viable LGS products. Warhammer products are an obvious comparison. Direct sales available, and yet huge crowds for it at any LGS I've been to that has proper floorspace. Direct sales doesn't destroy viability, it just caps profitability on sealed product.
I think the general consensus, amongst retailers, is that Wizards basically dropped them to deal with mass market stores as their sole fulfillment stream. That they made this announcement so soon after cancelling the Wizards Direct program doesn't look like a coincidence, whether or not it actually is. The fulfillment infrastructure that Wizards was using to send product to hundreds (or thousands?) of individual clients has likely been cut back and streamlined to instead send to a small number of mass market clients, which likely will save Wizards on overhead.An aside: People can't argue that amazon et all will undercut LGSs by a significant margin and argue that Wizards is going for a cash grab. Wizards wouldn't actually make any extra money from this if they offered amazon the same prices that distributors get. Wizards can very easily for big retails price point to stay at around $100 by charging more than they charge distributors. That's how they make money here. In all likelihood, these relationships have been in place for a while and it's only getting formalized now. The increasing proliferation of masters sets into big retail should have made it very obvious that this was happening.
If they wanted to be pissed at $100 online boxes they should have been pissed a decade ago.
Really, people getting up in arms about this is mind boggling to me.
Yup, it's $144 at our LGS as well. The idea of stores selling boxes for $100 is totally foreign to me. That seems like a recipe for closing down the store within a year.
Yup, it's $144 at our LGS as well. The idea of stores selling boxes for $100 is totally foreign to me. That seems like a recipe for closing down the store within a year.
How does your store not close when people find out you can buy boxes from the internet for ~$90?Yup, it's $144 at our LGS as well. The idea of stores selling boxes for $100 is totally foreign to me. That seems like a recipe for closing down the store within a year.
Why? They're likely paying around $70 for the boxes.Yup, it's $144 at our LGS as well. The idea of stores selling boxes for $100 is totally foreign to me. That seems like a recipe for closing down the store within a year.
How does your store not close when people find out you can buy boxes from the internet for ~$90?
Events make virtually no money; the entry fee is there to pay for the cost of running the event. When stores host events, it's with the hope that the people who come will buy product.the markup can be lower if the sales volume is higher
i don't think the sales volume of packs/boxes should really be the focus though. somehow people need to be buying into events that make the store + wotc money. surviving by selling things that nobody should buy (or that the amazons of the world can provide cheaper) isn't really the greatest strategy
organized play is kind of a fail because there's basically no incentive to actually play at a store other than the occasional promo card.
Events make virtually no money; the entry fee is there to pay for the cost of running the event. When stores host events, it's with the hope that the people who come will buy product.
This isn't a new thing you could always buy deeply discounted product on Amazon through affiliated retailers. If you want cheap product and are willing to go online for it, it has never been hard to find if you wanted to.this is a problem then because stores can't realistically be competitive at product sales
That doesnt mean that this is how Wizards / Hasbro should handle it. And, in fact, they are harming their game by crapping on the LGS'*.This isn't a new thing you could always buy deeply discounted product on Amazon through affiliated retailers. If you want cheap product and are willing to go online for it, it has never been hard to find if you wanted to.
The way you keep your LGS open is putting a bar in it. I'm not joking, by the way.
I'm guessing they are making more money and not less.That doesnt mean that this is how Wizards / Hasbro should handle it. And, in fact, they are harming their game by crapping on the stores.
It's dependent on the mana being any good. UW has horrible mana, but just splashing Teferi in a UB deck seems plausible.If Teferi doesn't warp the whole Standard meta it will be a miracle. I don't see how anyone can deckbuild without warping their deck to deal with him.
There is no MSRP for a box, just for individual packs. If you add up the MSRP for each pack ($3.99) it comes to $143.64, which is the official MSRP for a box. No stores actually sell boxes at that price though. Most stores will sell in the $90~$115 range depending on the local market. $100 a box is pretty common around here.
Yup, it's $144 at our LGS as well. The idea of stores selling boxes for $100 is totally foreign to me. That seems like a recipe for closing down the store within a year.
The issue for LGSes has never been $100 boxes, it's the $75 ~ $85, race-to-the-bottom prices that you can often find easily online for boxes. From Wizards Direct booster packs were $2.11 wholesale (about $76 for a box). From distributors it was a little more (generally in the $2.20 range or about $79~$80 a box). Less than a month ago, Wizards ended the Wizards Direct program that allowed stores to buy wholesale product directly from Wizards, so now all LGSes are forced to go through 3rd party distributors. I don't know how that's affected the distributor's prices, but the worry is that if Amazon is getting product for the same prices (or cheaper) that distributors get them from Wizards they'll sell them in the $80~$85 range with basically unlimited supply, which is virtually impossible to compete with given wholesale prices.
That retail comes with a lot more overhead than warehouse space has been an issue with retail for the last couple of decades. Ultimately, it's up to the people running the game stores to figure out how to stay profitable and keep the lights on, but unlike a lot of other industries, there's a tension with tabletop gaming because the biggest competition isn't actually the other companies in the market, but activities outside of the market (movies, bars, cafes, etc.) Plenty of people play games at home, but a big chunk of the segment doesn't for various reasons. If they don't have a place to play, then they simply won't and will do something else. If all of a store's customers are buying their product elsewhere, but still using the space to play, the store is going to have a difficult time staying open.
The way you keep your LGS open is putting a bar in it. I'm not joking, by the way.
Minis gaming (especially ones where you build and paint the models) have a bit of built-in safety valve because they take up a lot of space both when playing and when painting. Depending on where you are, a lot of people simply don't have the space or the setup to do that sort of stuff at home. On top of that, unlike a lot of other games, minis games have a more difficult time becoming commoditized, both because of their physicality and because companies like Games Workshop actively work to prevent it (similar to Nintendo). Magic's business model, on the other hand, basically forces cards to to be commoditized. If you buy a Warhammer battle force, you know exactly what you're getting. If you buy a booster box, you get a ton of stuff that you likely don't want or need.
I think the general consensus, amongst retailers, is that Wizards basically dropped them to deal with mass market stores as their sole fulfillment stream. That they made this announcement so soon after cancelling the Wizards Direct program doesn't look like a coincidence, whether or not it actually is. The fulfillment infrastructure that Wizards was using to send product to hundreds (or thousands?) of individual clients has likely been cut back and streamlined to instead send to a small number of mass market clients, which likely will save Wizards on overhead.
I mean, Wizards tells distributors that in reference to selling individual packs, which is correct. If you're exclusively selling individual packs, that is, indeed, the MSRP. The issue is, from what I've been told, the average LGS gets their boxes at a price range of $68 to $77, and then mark it up as need be. If they're selling full-on boxes at MSRP, they're trying to almost double their money, which is savagery.I think it's closer to $80 for most LGSs, especially now that Wizards isn't selling direct anymore..
BTW, the $143 MSRP number is what Wizards tells distributors...yet the new direct sell from amazon is like $95..
BTW, the $143 MSRP number is what Wizards tells distributors...yet the new direct sell from amazon is like $95..
that hasn't been my experience w/ amazon and magic products in europe. Amazon is more expensive than any LGS see for instance commander 2018, any deck costs between €25 and €30 at my LGS but €35 to €40 on amazon.This isn't a new thing you could always buy deeply discounted product on Amazon through affiliated retailers. If you want cheap product and are willing to go online for it, it has never been hard to find if you wanted to.
The way you keep your LGS open is putting a bar in it. I'm not joking, by the way.