Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
I must not have understood. When you watch that scene, are you wondering why she doesn't go try to wreck the canon with her mind? Instead she flies the Milennium Falcon right over it, shoots some TIEs, and shouts "I like this!"
No I'm not wondering that because there's no reason why that would be an option.

1. I thought part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be?
??

So wait, you think her arch was being disillusioned with legends?

2. Please tell me what doesn't make sense about it? Luke told her that HE wasn't going to stand against an army by himself and that he cut himself off from the force, he didn't say it was impossible. He also told her that her power was almost unparalleled. Why would she think because he won't stand against an army, that she can't?
I'll tell you again. Luke was literally her hero/legend.

A literal living legend, and literally, LITERALLY the only jedi in the galaxy, you know the one that she heard all the stories and rumours about. Those same rumours and stories about what Jedi can do with the force.

None of which likely involved him crushing huge structures with his mind.

How about this: she doesn't even need to stand against the army. She just needs to see the canon, and focus on it with her mind, and break something inside it. That's not standing against an army. Why doesn't she try to do that?
My guess would be because unless you know the detailed schematics of the machine, just randomly applying pressure to something that could be as strong as star ship durasteel and hoping it gets destroyed would not be as useful as trying to actively cover your friends below?

Not to mention doing it while in a rapidly moving ship theoretically could be more difficult? Oh and assuming something like that worked, it would again fuck up multiple character archs?

1. I thought part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be?
So you think her main arch is that?

2. If the reason Luke had trouble with the force is that he doubts himself, and Rey does not have doubt in herself, then therefore she is unrestricted in her abilities, right?
Except your suggesting things that even the stories she heard would not mention or consider, which is a key point of what I was saying.

It's the difference between "what the fuck is the force?" and "I heard Jedi can influence minds and lift rocks!" and "I heard some dude named star killer pulled a star destroyer out of orbit with nothing but the force!" . Those last two are not in the same realm of possibility when someone considers relative power.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,059
The more I read these arguments the more I'm convinced you dudes were Jedi in a previous life
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
True, but personally, the midiclorians are the least of the PT's problems. Ultimately, all it really is is a device that measures what the likes of force users measure with the force. Various characters say that "Luke is strong with the force". To know that, they must be sensing something. All midiclorions are is a different name put on the thing that the OT characters sensed, and measured by a machine instead of people.

Which I'll agree that is contradictory in ANH, which implied that EVERYONE can use the force and it's really just a matter of learning how, but I'm pretty sure they dropped that by the second movie and accepted the logic of Luke being strong in the force because he's Vader's son.

I don't really care about Midiclorions being retconned, but it's always been wierd to me that THIS was treated as the primary betrayal of SW in TPM, and not everything else.
I don't think there's ever been a consensus that it's the problem with the prequels, but it's definitely one of the bigger ones, narratively, though it's an easier fix than the others. Just don't fucking include it. It completely and utterly dismantles what Yoda tells us in ESB.

Can you fucking imagine if in EP5 we get a slow camera zoom on Yoda's face like "it's dependent on microscopic organisms that we can scientifically quantify and measure as a dick length contest. I have around 19,000, which makes me very powerful with the force. Your father has over 20 thousand!!! Which makes him the most powerful ever for ever and ever. I wonder what we will find if we take a blood sample from you, young Skywalker, how do you measure up?"

You described how the force is not quantified or scientifically measured, earlier in your posts. Midis do exactly that. Yoda just tells us the force is something that surrounds and binds us, that if you believe in yourself, you can harness its power. That's fucking it. And interpretations of the Force should include that explanation, IMO, because Yoda's monologue to Luke and the lesson he teaches him with the X-Wing is one of the most powerful moments in all of the saga.

I mean, yes, it's a writer's interpretation. But it's also the same writer's contradiction and a horrid storytelling device. Again, there's a reason why SW movies won't touch it with a 10 foot pole unless they can develop a narrative that demonizes it as a Jedi fuck up. But yes I agree that there are many worse problems with the PT in terms of stuff that would need to be overhauled and completely scrapped/started anew.

Midis and the way dick measuring contests were introduced in the PT is in part why we get "so why didn't Luke crush the FO with his fist in person" arguments.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
You described how the force is not quantified or scientifically measured, earlier in your posts. Midis do exactly that.
Well, do be specific, the exact quote says that Midi-clorians aren't the force itself, they're simply the medium by which people in the SW universe communicate with the force. More midiclorians, more mediums by which to communicate with the force with.When I said that the force cannot be scientifically measured, I was mainly talking about the inner workings of it, the why and how that it works. If you can agree that there are some people who simply are not capable of utilizing the force as well as others, which much is atleast an interpretation you can take from the OT (because just because the force is everywhere and in everyone doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's capable of connecting with it), then it doesn't seem to me to be a major or unreasonable step to say explain the reason for that being the case. To me, that's not explaining the inner workings of the force so much as why not everyone has access to it, which doesn't seem as bad.

For me, the bigger problem is that midiclorians is just...lame and kinda useless. It's a dumb name and a dumb concept that ultimately doesn't say anything more than "You are strong in the force" except in nerdier language.

Either way, it's not exactly a hill I'm eager to die on. I think the issue of them is overblown, but I agree that doesn't mean that they're good storytelling.

SW movies won't touch it with a 10 foot pole unless they can develop a narrative that demonizes it as a Jedi fuck up.
True, but this is the only other disagreement I have. If we have a scientifically minded Jedi, who willfully sees the world through measurable data, Midi-clorians would be a useful tool for him and they could extrapolate that to build his worldview through the force. Remember, because the Force ultimately exists to tell us about the inner souls of characters, it can be worked to include anything, including a scientific framework. It just cannot be explained or bound by that framework.

A scientifically minded jedi would probably have the frustrating time adjusting tho, as they would have to simultaneously use science to understand yet consistently fail to understand the force. It would probably be more of a mindfuck for them than anything, really.
 
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Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Well, do be specific, the exact quote says that Midi-clorians aren't the force itself, they're simply the medium by which people in the SW universe communicate with the force. More midiclorians, more mediums by which to communicate with the force with.When I said that the force cannot be scientifically measured, I was mainly talking about the inner workings of it, the why and how that it works. If you can agree that there are some people who simply are not capable of utilizing the force as well as others, which much is atleast an interpretation you can take from the OT (because just because the force is everywhere and in everyone doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's capable of connecting with it), then it doesn't seem to me to be a major or unreasonable step to say explain the reason for that being the case. To me, that's not explaining the inner workings of the force so much as why not everyone has access to it, which doesn't seem as bad.

For me, the bigger problem is that midiclorians is just...lame and kinda useless. It's a dumb name and a dumb concept that ultimately doesn't say anything more than "You are strong in the force" except in nerdier language.

Either way, it's not exactly a hill I'm eager to die on. I think the issue of them is overblown, but I agree that doesn't mean that they're good storytelling.



True, but this is the only other disagreement I have. If we have a scientifically minded Jedi, who willfully sees the world through measurable data, Midi-clorians would be a useful tool for him and they could extrapolate that to build his worldview through the force. Remember, because the Force ultimately exists to tell us about the inner souls of characters, it can be worked to include anything, including a scientific framework. It just cannot be explained or bound by that framework.
Midis are scientifically measuring the force, they are not literally the force. I never stated that. They're still a scientific explanation of the force, no matter how you slice it. You don't get to just throw out a "oh by the way the force is still this mystical force, but we can also measure it scientifically. You can't have it both ways, narratively, considering the established context. The PTs used them as a jumping off point for dick measuring contests and power levels that have since plagued the fanbase and harmed meaningful discussion about characterization.

I'm not sure if you're recognizing the implications of measuring the force. It sets a bad precedent. It's contradicting what Yoda teaches Luke about lifting the X-Wing, which is literally "you don't believe, that is why you fail". Not "well your midis are high and you should be able to harness them to use the force".

It's very much unreasonable and opens the door for shallow discussion about power levels and deflates the force metaphorically and thematically. Assigning a biological function and measuring unit to "believe in yourself" is contradictory. Can you imagine Yoda explaining to another trainee "I'm so sorry, you believed in yourself, but your midis didn't quite break the 5k mark".

I think the hate is absolutely justified via my above reasoning. It's just that it's not the only major thing wrong with the PT. I'd much rather have everything else go right and get some shitty midis than vice versa.
 
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Jan 3, 2018
397
No I'm not wondering that because there's no reason why that would be an option.
She tries to lift a metric assload of rocks with her mind, but she doesn't try to lift a canon off the ground and drop it? You know, the primary thing that is threatening all her friends lives. At this point, it's like one of her only options.

My guess would be because unless you know the detailed schematics of the machine, just randomly applying pressure to something that could be as strong as star ship durasteel and hoping it gets destroyed would not be as useful as trying to actively cover your friends below?

Not to mention doing it while in a rapidly moving ship theoretically could be more difficult?
Are you deliberately being obtuse here? You know she doesn't even have to destroy it, right? She could just try to like, turn it 90 degrees? So that it's not aimed directly at the last of the rebellion? Then maybe as the First Order is turning it back, she can go help them try to escape? Again, the cannon is the primary thing that is threatening all her friends lives. She completely ignores it. While she was moving rocks, the blast might have killed everyone.

Except your suggesting things that even the stories she heard would not mention or consider, which is a key point of what I was saying.

It's the difference between "what the fuck is the force?" and "I heard Jedi can influence minds and lift rocks!" and "I heard some dude named star killer pulled a star destroyer out of orbit with nothing but the force!" . Those last two are not in the same realm of possibility when someone considers relative power.
Dude, you told me she knew all the jedi force powers! You said that. So were you wrong?

She ALREADY KNOWS you can move objects with your mind. Yet she doesn't even try to move the cannon.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I'm not sure if you're recognizing the implications of measuring the force. It sets a bad precedent. It's contradicting what Yoda teaches Luke about lifting the X-Wing, which is literally "you don't believe, that is why you fail". Not "well your midis are high and you should be able to harness them to use the force".
Like I said, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on, so...yeah, sure, I don't feel like arguing on behalf of a storytelling device I don't think is very good either way, which we seem to be in agreement with anyway.

That said, the crux of our disagreement with this seems to be that I don't think it's not inherently wrong to contradict Yoda. That, I feel, is the far greater issue. People have made the OT into this sacred lamb of storytelling that cannot be diminished, and I feel atleast part of Luke's journey, the final part, is proving that Yoda, for all his wisdom, is wrong and fallible and not all knowing.

As such, I'm okay with contradicting him. It doesn't necessarily make him wrong, it just means that there is an aspect of the force that he would be blind to. Which is reasonable, as even a rigorous scientific framework of the force would have blindspots too. But if the force is going to be this magical thing that permeats all of life, then I don't privilege any character with an absolute understanding of it, Yoda included.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Like I said, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on, so...yeah, sure, I don't feel like arguing on behalf of a storytelling device I don't think is very good either way, which we seem to be in agreement with anyway.

That said, the crux of our disagreement with this seems to be that I don't think it's not inherently wrong to contradict Yoda. That, I feel, is the far greater issue. People have made the OT into this sacred lamb of storytelling that cannot be diminished, and I feel atleast part of Luke's journey, the final part, is proving that Yoda, for all his wisdom, is wrong and fallible and not all knowing.

As such, I'm okay with contradicting him. It doesn't necessarily make him wrong, it just means that there is an aspect of the force that he would be blind to. Which is reasonable, as even a rigorous scientific framework of the force would have blindspots too. But if the force is going to be this magical thing that permeats all of life, then I don't privilege any character with an absolute understanding of it, Yoda included.
I disagree with this completely, in the context of Yoda explaining the force in ESB. It's one thing to criticize the Jedi for their many potential fuckups (especially after the PT becomes canon), it's another to say "Yoda, ancient magical space wizard, misuderstood the magic he mastered when he explained its basic function to the hero on his hero's journey".

"well, actually, master Yoda was wrong about believing in yourself if you want to succeed in the face of incredible odds"

That is just shitty storytelling. It's got nothing to do with OT worship. It's got everything to do with something the OT did very right, which is using the force as a relatable and simple metaphor that works with humans who struggle, fail, and succeed.

Contradicting that is to fumble what actually makes the OT work on the most basic and foundational level.

Nostalgia doesn't dominate everything. That doesn't mean Yoda didn't fuck up or was never wrong. Him and Obi were dead wrong about Vader and Luke showed them that.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I disagree with this completely, in the context of Yoda explaining the force in ESB. It's one thing to criticize the Jedi for their many potential fuckups (especially after the PT becomes canon), it's another to say "Yoda, ancient magical space wizard, misuderstood the magic he mastered when he explained its basic function to the hero on his hero's journey".
...and do you recall who was leading those fucked up jedi who misunderstood the force?

"well, actually, master Yoda was wrong about believing in yourself if you want to succeed in the face of incredible odds"

That is just shitty storytelling. It's got nothing to do with OT worship. It's got everything to do with something the OT did very right, which is using the force as a relatable and simple metaphor that works with humans who struggle, fail, and succeed.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying he was wrong about it, per se. What I'm saying is that his knowledge of it was not absolutely. What I'm saying is that the malleable nature of the force, with it's true purpose being one to show the inner characterization of the people uisng it, means that what is true for him will not necessarily be true for all. None of this is to say that his interpretation is false, merely that it is not all encompassing and that the nature of hte force is such that contradictions between practitioners is possible.

Think of it like different the hundreds of different sects of buddhism. Different sects believe different things, but they are all Buddhism because Buddhism focuses on individual experiences rather than any particular dogma. As such, you can meet two different buddhists who have differing beliefs about, for example, violence, and they can cite the exact same story about the cat that was torn in half by a Buddhist master as references for their beliefs and interpret it differently...but both are as buddhist as the other. That's how I view the practitioners of the force, which leaves room for Yoda to be contradicted without him being truly wrong.

The force worked like he believed it did for himself. He wasn't wrong, he just doesn't have final say on it for anyone else.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
...and do you recall who was leading those fucked up jedi who misunderstood the force?


Just to be clear, I'm not saying he was wrong about it, per se. What I'm saying is that his knowledge of it was not absolutely. What I'm saying is that the malleable nature of the force, with it's true purpose being one to show the inner characterization of the people uisng it, means that what is true for him will not necessarily be true for all. None of this is to say that his interpretation is false, merely that it is not all encompassing and that the nature of hte force is such that contradictions between practitioners is possible.

Think of it like different the hundreds of different sects of buddhism. Different sects believe different things, but they are all buddhism becuase Buddhism focuses on individual experiences and dogma. As such, you can meet two different buddhists who have differing beliefs about violence, and they can cite the exact same story as references for their beliefs and interpret it differently...but both are as buddhist as the other. That's how I view the practitioners of the force, which leaves room for Yoda to be contradicted without him being truly wrong.

The force worked like he believed it did for himself. He wasn't wrong, he just doesn't have final say on it for anyone else.
Yoda's lesson for Luke (believe in yourself) doesn't have anything to do with the mistakes the Jedi (and Yoda himself) made; they shouldn't be conflated.

In regard to the religion, the force is basically faith. Every religion has faith in what they believe in. That strength cannot be quantified or scientifically explained, nor should it be.

I mean we had someone in here before posting freakin' brain scans of Buddhist monks to explain the force in previous threads lol.

It's not that complicated. To measure that simplicity is to fail the brilliant metaphor of the force.

Or kinda like Indy's leap of faith in Crusade. "You must believe, boy."

I dunno, people are welcome to interpret whatever they'd like about the force but I think it works best in its simplicity, which is what makes that scene so powerful.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
She tries to lift a metric assload of rocks with her mind, but she doesn't try to lift a canon off the ground and drop it? You know, the primary thing that is threatening all her friends lives. At this point, it's like one of her only options.
Putting aside that the canon seems pretty damn huge, (potentially larger than all those rocks combined), once again you're throwing a suggestion that goes against one of the primary themes of the movie.

Are you deliberately being obtuse here?
This comment is irony right?

You know she doesn't even have to destroy it, right? She could just try to like, turn it 90 degrees?
So you've now gone from "she could just break something inside it!" to "she could lift the entire thing 90 degrees while on a moving space ship! Which wouldn't even solve the issue because they would you know, turn it back around?

o that it's not aimed directly at the last of the rebellion?
It's a good thing it landed already facing the target or else the FO sure would have been screwed! "Damn it bob! why did you land the canon facing the wrong way?what the fuck are we going to do now, turn it!?:"

Again, the cannon is the primary thing that is threatening all her friends lives
The canon is there to bust open the doors, not kill them all. The walkers were actively shooting a Poe and gang who were the ones trying to stop the canon before it charged up.

While she was moving rocks, the blast might have killed everyone.
Except the canon had already fired when she was moving rocks lol. It fired while they were distracting the tie fighters remember? The big fuck off hole was what Luke walked through to buy the resistance time as they went to find an escape. This statement makes me think you weren't paying attention.

Dude, you told me she knew all the jedi force powers! You said that.
Yes in the example I literally had in the quotes!

Perhaps try reading?

he ALREADY KNOWS you can move objects with your mind.
Sure rocks.

Yet she doesn't even try to move the cannon.
The giant fuck off cannon that is much much much bigger than rocks
Which was the literal point of what you quoted. There is a difference between:

and


You call me obtuse while refusing to actually read any of my posts, and ignore the examples provided.

The only one being obtuse is you by literally doing nothing but repeating your statements while ACTIVELY IGNORING WHAT I WRITE in the very posts THAT YOU QUOTE.

You also ignored your own shifting goal posts going from trying to break something inside the cannon to lifting it (and considering it had anti-grav technology to resist it's pretty damn reasonable to assume it could apply pressure to resist in the opposite direction) and turning it around (which would do nothing).

You also ignored at least three times now me pointing out that these changes would also go against the themes of the movie, or downright delete character archs, as well as ignored me asking if you genuinely thought Rey's only character arch involved being disillusioned with legends.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
In regard to the religion, the force is basically faith. Every religion has faith in what they believe in. That strength cannot be quantified or scientifically explained, nor should it be.

I mean we had someone in here before posting freakin' brain scans of Buddhist monks to explain the force in previous threads lol.

It's not that complicated. To measure that simplicity is to fail the brilliant metaphor of the force.
Yeah, but you can't say that without acknowledging that if you group all religions in the world together (or even just all practioners of one religion), then you have a jumbled mess of different worldviews that, collectively, contradict each other all the time. If the faith metaphor for the force is going to work, then it needs to be applied to all those worldviews, which means there are going to be contradictions in it's application. Whats true for one Jedi will not be necessarily be true for another. And bare in mind that a worldview doesn't necessarily need to be religious either. There are people who have a scientific worldview, in which they'd try to understand the force through that framework. To what degree they'd succeed would depend on the story and storyteller, but because a scientific worldview isn't the same thing as the scientific method itself, it leaves room for the Force to be both scientifically framed, but not scientifically defined, even if that seems mutually contradictory. But hey, that's perfectly in line with those contradicting mysticism sayings.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Yeah, but you can't say that without acknowledging that if you group all religions in the world together, then you have a jumbled mess of different worldviews that, collectively, contradict each other all the time. If the faith metaphor for the force is going to work, then it needs to be applied to all those worldviews, which means there are going to be contradictions in it's application. Whats true for one Jedi will not be necessarily be true for another. And bare in mind that a worldview doesn't necessarily need to be religious either. There are people who have a scientific worldview, in which they'd try to understand the force through that framework. To what degree they'd succeed would depend on the story and storyteller, but because a scientific worldview isn't the same thing as the scientific method itself, it leaves room for the Force to be both scientifically framed, but not scientifically defined, even if that seems mutually contradictory. But hey, that's perfectly in line with those contradicting mysticism sayings.
I agree with the idea that each religion can have different interpretations of how that faith is perceived. For example the emperor teaches us that hate makes you powerful. Kylo also taps into the strength of the dark side by placing his faith in his anger and resentment.. a belief that was passed down from the emperor to Vader and eventually to Ben.

However, whatever your faith is has nothing to do with science or quantifications. That's where I'm a "nope". I don't see the connection or even reasoning for getting there. The force doesn't need a measuring stick. Nor does faith or belief.

We see a reference to this as far back as the original Star Wars: "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

This is what the force is. The light and the dark just have their own definitions of those faiths that allow them to harness their respective strengths.
 

Deleted member 51103

User requested account closure
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Dec 20, 2018
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Portland, Oregon
It's really pathetic people are still arguing about this.

Here is the big plot hole: Light speed ships can interact with other ships.

Why do you need a death star if you can just light-speed an asteroid into a planet?

Why have a fleet of ships if all it takes is light-speeding mass into other ships?

It's fucking dumb. TLJ was a dumb cartoon that killed off all of the main characters in a dumbshit way, no need to discuss it further.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
Putting aside that the canon seems pretty damn huge, (potentially larger than all those rocks combined), once again you're throwing a suggestion that goes against one of the primary themes of the movie.


This comment is irony right?


So you've now gone from "she could just break something inside it!" to "she could lift the entire thing 90 degrees while on a moving space ship! Which wouldn't even solve the issue because they would you know, turn it back around?


It's a good thing it landed already facing the target or else the FO sure would have been screwed! "Damn it bob! why did you land the canon facing the wrong way?what the fuck are we going to do now, turn it!?:"


The canon is there to bust open the doors, not kill them all. The walkers were actively shooting a Poe and gang who were the ones trying to stop the canon before it charged up.


Except the canon had already fired when she was moving rocks lol. It fired while they were distracting the tie fighters remember? The big fuck off hole was what Luke walked through to buy the resistance time as they went to find an escape. This statement makes me think you weren't paying attention.


Yes in the example I literally had in the quotes!


Perhaps try reading?


Sure rocks.


The giant fuck off cannon that is much much much bigger than rocks
Which was the literal point of what you quoted. There is a difference between:

and


You call me obtuse while refusing to actually read any of my posts, and ignore the examples provided.

The only one being obtuse is you by literally doing nothing but repeating your statements while ACTIVELY IGNORING WHAT I WRITE in the very posts THAT YOU QUOTE.

You also ignored your own shifting goal posts going from trying to break something inside the cannon to lifting it (and considering it had anti-grav technology to resist it's pretty damn reasonable to assume it could apply pressure to resist in the opposite direction) and turning it around (which would do nothing).
So in TFA, when she's imprisoned with the storm trooper, she thinks "What the hey, in this life or death situation I'm in, I'll just randomly try a jedi mind trick. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."

In TLJ, why doesn't she think, "What the hey, in this life or death situation my friends are in, I'll just randomly try to move/destroy this cannon. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I agree with the idea that each religion can have different interpretations of how that faith is perceived. For example the emperor teaches us that hate makes you powerful. Kylo also taps into the strength of the dark side by placing his faith in his anger and resentment.. a belief that was passed down from the emperor to Vader and eventually to Ben.

However, whatever your faith is has nothing to do with science or quantifications. That's where I'm a "nope". I don't see the connection or even reasoning for getting there. The force doesn't need a measuring stick. Neither does faith or belief.

We see a reference to this as far back as the original Star Wars: "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

This is what the force is. The light and the dark just have their own definitions of those faiths.
This is all based on the misunderstanding that faith and science are wholly incompatible. But even science acknowledges that you have to take certain things on faith to then extrapolate on greater understanding. That's what axioms are, after all, and there are assumptions that are universal to all branches of science.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
So in TFA, when she's imprisoned with the storm trooper, she thinks "What the hey, in this life or death situation I'm in, I'll just randomly try a jedi mind trick. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."

In TLJ, why doesn't she think, "What the hey, in this life or death situation my friends are in, I'll just randomly try to move this cannon. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."
Wow great job STILL dodging the point I'm making lol.

Or do you actually see NO DIFFERENCE between the two pictures I posted?

Because again the difference is BASED ON THE STORIES SHE HEARD ABOUT WHAT LUKE WAS CAPABLE OF .

There is a world of difference between Luke could lift rocks/objects with his mind vs Luke could lift an AT-AT.

How about you STOP DODGING THE POINTS and actually ADDRESS what I said instead?

Edit: Honestly at this point it's getting abundantly clear that you're not actually reading any of my posts, and your constant dodging of points is starting to imply that either you have no intention of actually discussing things, or even just trolling at this point.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
It's really pathetic people are still arguing about this.

Here is the big plot hole: Light speed ships can interact with other ships.

Why do you need a death star if you can just light-speed an asteroid into a planet?

Why have a fleet of ships if all it takes is light-speeding mass into other ships?

It's fucking dumb. TLJ was a dumb cartoon that killed off all of the main characters in a dumbshit way, no need to discuss it further.
Shhhh, if you bring up TLJ plot holes, you'll get roped into a days-long argument from which there is no escape.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
Wow great job STILL dodging the point I'm making lol.

Or do you actually see NO DIFFERENCE between the two pictures I posted?

Because again the difference is BASED ON THE STORIES SHE HEARD ABOUT WHAT LUKE WAS CAPABLE OF .

There is a world of difference between Luke could lift rocks/objects with his mind vs Luke could lift an AT-AT.

How about you STOP DODGING THE POINTS and actually ADDRESS what I said instead?
Please tell me when Luke lifted a metric ass-load of rocks all at once.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
This is all based on the misunderstanding that faith and science are wholly incompatible. But even science acknowledges that you have to take certain things on faith to then extrapolate on greater understanding. That's what axioms are, after all, and there are assumptions that are universal to all branches of science.
I mean that's kind of my point. That "take it on faith" is what the force is, before the PT.

And again, the force loses its muster as an effective and relatable metaphor when you start quantifying or "sciencing" it.

But I think we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree, in regard to how the force is displayed and functions (and how it should work moving forward in the films) outside of the horrid 30 second midi explanation in the PT.

Thanks for the discussion, you're a good poster, I enjoyed it.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
Please tell me when Luke lifted a metric ass-load of rocks all at once.
Still dodging all the other points I see!

We see in the OT Luke already able to lift multiple heavy objects at once, and it's already heavily implied he could have lifted an X-wing which would reasonably weigh an ass-load.

Stories of Luke as a Jedi would likely involve him doing jedi shit like lifting objects with his mind (note OBJECTS NOT MASSIVE DESTROYER AT ATs)
Hell I included a gif of him lifting stuff while he was still training and doubting his own abilities lol.

Shhhh, if you bring up TLJ plot holes, you'll get roped into a days-long argument from which there is no escape.
Ah ok you're just trolling got it!

Because nothing you brought is a plot hole. By literal definition. But thank you for establishing that you have no actual intention of addressing the points or having an honest discussion lol.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I mean that's kind of my point. That "take it on faith" is what the force is, before the PT.

And again, the force loses its muster as an effective and relatable metaphor when you start quantifying or "sciencing" it.

But I think we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree, in regard to how the force is displayed and functions (and how it should work moving forward in the films) outside of the horrid 30 second midi explanation in the PT.

Thanks for the discussion, you're a good poster, I enjoyed it.
Thanks, and same to you. But I do have to ask one last thing then.

If we get a new protagonist, and they are a scientifically minded individual and view the world through a scientific lens, and how do you believe the force would work around them then?
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
Still dodging all the other points I see!

We see in the OT Luke already able to lift multiple heavy objects at once, and it's already heavily implied he could have lifted an X-wing which would reasonably weigh an ass-load.

Stories of Luke as a Jedi would likely involve him doing jedi shit like lifting objects with his mind (note OBJECTS NOT MASSIVE DESTROYER AT ATs)
Hell I included a gif of him lifting stuff while he was still training and doubting his own abilities lol.


Ah ok you're just trolling got it!

Because nothing you brought is a plot hole. By literal definition. But thank you for establishing that you have no actual intention of addressing the points or having an honest discussion lol.
So she makes the mental leap of "Luke lifted small rocks" to "I can lift an ass-load of rocks."

But she is incapable of making the mental leap to "Maybe I can lift this cannon?"

I don't buy it.

But listen, if you do, that's fine man. Agree to disagree yeah?
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
So she makes the mental leap of "Luke lifted small rocks" to "I can lift an ass-load of rocks."
This completely ignores my point that Luke would be capable of lifting an x-wing at the least which is not the same as "small rocks".


But she is incapable of making the mental leap to "Maybe I can lift this cannon?"

I don't buy it.

But listen, if you do, that's fine man. Agree to disagree yeah?
Nah you're just arguing in bad faith. You literally ignore pretty much every point I make, then misrepresent my arguments because you ignore the literal examples I provided.

You had no intention of actually discussing this, you're clearly just a troll.

It is a shame because I love discussing and using examples, but it's always frustrating finding out that the person you're having a discussion with prefers to just troll and ignore everything you say.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Thanks, and same to you. But I do have to ask one last thing then.

If we get a new protagonist, and they are a scientifically minded individual and view the world through a scientific lens, and how do you believe the force would work around them then?
I would expect that the force wouldn't work well for them, because that's not how it works in any of the films, even the PT. I mean even aside from the shitty midi drop, in regard to the force actually being used, it's still very much emotion/feeling/faith/belief based.

To be honest I'm not really sure how a scientific approach could be utilized in a SW film.


Is kinda my simplified version. That doesn't mean you cannot be a scientific person in general, but in terms of wielding and harnessing the power of the force, you'd need to have more of a Luke perspective than a Han (in ANH). Which I realize makes this gif humorous in context, considering Han eventually believes in it lol.

"You don't believe in the force, do you"

You'd have to be able to set aside a quantified and rationalized approach and focus on your feelings/emotions.

This is what the films teach us.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I would expect that the force wouldn't work well for them, because that's not how it works in any of the films, even the PT. I mean even aside from the shitty midi drop, in regard to the force actually being used, it's still very much emotion/feeling/faith/belief based.
People can have emotions relating to even to their scientific framework though. Like, what does NDT feel if not wonderment and awe when he looks on the universe. What does Bill Nye exhibit if not passion and excitement and exuberance when talking about science? (also, keep in mind that a scientific framework is not the same thing as the scientific method).

If you can accept that, and imagining a scientific Jedi isn't so hard so long as he has an axiomatic belief in the force.

Edit: One more example. Like, if you asked the average scientist if they believed in love, they'd probably say yes. But they might view it through a scientific framework where they feel they can track the pattern where they fall in love or how they have loving moments in different terms. It's not that there is a lack of emotion, but it's the language by which they understand love.

That kind of framework could work for a force user. It doesn't exclude emotions or feelings, but the framework of how they see things would cahnge how the force is expressed.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
This completely ignores my point that Luke would be capable of lifting an x-wing at the least which is not the same as "small rocks".



Nah you're just arguing in bad faith. You literally ignore pretty much every point I make, then misrepresent my arguments because you ignore the literal examples I provided.

You had no intention of actually discussing this, you're clearly just a troll.

It is a shame because I love discussing and using examples, but it's always frustrating finding out that the person you're having a discussion with prefers to just troll and ignore everything you say.
Are those "other points" relevant? Because I think you were bringing them up to distract from the fact that your argument is poor. Stuff like the reason a character didn't do something is because it would get in the way of themes? That's not good writing now, is it?

You bring up all this other crap when my question is very simple. It's sad that you can't just say, "Oh I didn't think of that. Yeah it's a bit of a fuck-up, innit?"

But thanks for debating and for the continuous condescending tone. I'm glad you are enjoying the ST.
 
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Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
People can have emotions relating to even to their scientific framework though. Like, what does NDT feel if not wonderment and awe when he looks on the universe. What does Bill Nye exhibit if not passion and excitement and exuberance when talking about science? (also, keep in mind that a scientific framework is not the same thing as the scientific method).

If you can accept that, and imagining a scientific Jedi isn't so hard so long as he has an axiomatic belief in the force.

Edit: One more example. Like, if you asked the average scientist if they believed in love, they'd probably say yes. But they might view it through a scientific framework where they feel they can track the pattern where they fall in love or how they have loving moments in different terms. It's not that there is a lack of emotion, but it's the language by which they understand love.

That kind of framework could work for a force user. It doesn't exclude emotions or feelings, but the framework of how they see things would cahnge how the force is expressed.
Oh don't misunderstand what I mean, I'm not saying scientists are cold, emotionless calculators. I'm not saying they've got any less emotion or feeling than anyone else.

My point is that the scientific background wouldn't help them with understanding and utilizing the force. Because the force is based on emotion/feeling/belief/faith. So they'd have to utilize that portion of their being to harness the energy of the force, something that is the opposite of quantifying or rationalizing.

Look at what every single force user references when they talk about understanding and harnessing the force. Emotions. Love, hate, anger, peace. Stretch out with your feelings. Reach out. Use your instincts.

None of this has to do with science or a scientific perspective. So I'm pretty confident that someone "let's science the shit out of this" in regard to the force is going to fall on their face, because that's not how its shown to work.
 

VonGreckler

Member
Oct 25, 2017
565
It's really pathetic people are still arguing about this.

Here is the big plot hole: Light speed ships can interact with other ships.

Why do you need a death star if you can just light-speed an asteroid into a planet?

Why have a fleet of ships if all it takes is light-speeding mass into other ships?

It's fucking dumb. TLJ was a dumb cartoon that killed off all of the main characters in a dumbshit way, no need to discuss it further.
That's not a plot hole unless your definition of plot hole is "thing I didn't like".
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
None of this has to do with science or a scientific perspective.
Except it does though. People examine, rationalize, quantify, even test their feelings all the time. Sociologically, psychologically, politically and philosophically even. It's soft science, but it's still science. They can even conduct tests and come to conclusions. I say again, science frameworks and feelings are not mutually exclusive.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Except it does though. People examine, rationalize, quantify, even test their feelings all the time. Sociologically, psychologically, politically and philosophically even. It's soft science, but it's still science. They can even conduct tests and come to conclusions.
But that isn't something that helps you while you're, in the moment, feeling or believing (in the context of our sci-fi).

Which how the force is used.

Again, from what all force users show and tell us in the films, that's not how the force works.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
But that isn't something that helps you while you're, in the moment, feeling or believing.
That doesn't really matter. Any scientific framework is iterative, but then so is spirituality. Scientific framework of the force will still help it's 'in the moment' use of it as the user gets more in touch with it. It will help him express it more because the user believes in it...which is how, as we've established, the force operates.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
That doesn't really matter. Any scientific framework is iterative, but then so is spirituality. Scientific framework of the force will still help it's 'in the moment' use of it as the user gets more in touch with it. It will help him express it more because the user believes in it...which is how, as we've established, the force operates.
I'm still not understanding how quantifying feelings would help someone utilize the force more effectively. Because again, this is not what the films tell us about the force.

I understand those things work in our scientific, non-force based world, in regard to studying and learning about feelings/emotions and literally understanding how they work within our body though.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
It's really pathetic people are still arguing about this.

Here is the big plot hole: Light speed ships can interact with other ships.

Why do you need a death star if you can just light-speed an asteroid into a planet?

Why have a fleet of ships if all it takes is light-speeding mass into other ships?

It's fucking dumb. TLJ was a dumb cartoon that killed off all of the main characters in a dumbshit way, no need to discuss it further.
You do not know what a plot hole is. "thing I don't like" doesn't = plot hole.

Nor do I think you know what a main character is seeing how you said TLJ killed off all the main characters.

Rey is the main character. She is very much alive. Kylo is the main villain. He is very much alive.

The two main characters after Rey? Finn and Poe. Also alive!
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
Are those "other points" relevant? Because I think you were bringing them up to distract from the fact that your argument is poor.
This has the be the most ironic comment coming from the poster that changed the goal posts multiple times, misrepresented the argument even more times, and still manages to ignore the relevant points and cherry pick when I mentioned themes!

Also to actually have a discussion and prove an argument is poor, you should actually address why the points aren't relevant, you know, kind of like what i've been doing the entire time?


You literally asked questions that were answered in the posts you quoted. The only one with poor arguments here are yours. But since you wanna try to project this on me let's have some fun with it!

1. I thought part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be?
So wait, you think her arch was being disillusioned with legends?
Never got a reply to that.

You know she doesn't even have to destroy it, right? She could just try to like, turn it 90 degrees?
So you've now gone from "she could just break something inside it!" to "she could lift the entire thing 90 degrees while on a moving space ship! Which wouldn't even solve the issue because they would you know, turn it back around?
What a shock that you never replied or mentioned this! Especially when you previously said:

How about this: she doesn't even need to stand against the army. She just needs to see the canon, and focus on it with her mind, and break something inside it. That's not standing against an army. Why doesn't she try to do that?
But then you immediatly went to the turning it route when I provided an explanation why that probably wouldn't work! Funny how you never came back to this either.

1. You keep ignoring that part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be
Now where did I do that in particular? And how was it relevant to the point you were specifically trying to make?
??

So wait, you think her arch was being disillusioned with legends?
So you think her main arch is that?
Never got a reply to those, despite me asking you to clarify your standing on it! But sure I'm the one with the bad arguments that I can't support huh?


So in TFA, when she's imprisoned with the storm trooper, she thinks "What the hey, in this life or death situation I'm in, I'll just randomly try a jedi mind trick. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."

In TLJ, why doesn't she think, "What the hey, in this life or death situation my friends are in, I'll just randomly try to move/destroy this cannon. What's the worst that can happen? Let's just give it a shot."
And here was what you literally quoted:

The giant fuck off cannon that is much much much bigger than rocks
Which was the literal point of what you quoted. There is a difference between:

and
You still haven't addressed this point btw!


Well except for this line:
So she makes the mental leap of "Luke lifted small rocks" to "I can lift an ass-load of rocks."
which directly ignored when I said:
We see in the OT Luke already able to lift multiple heavy objects at once, and it's already heavily implied he could have lifted an X-wing which would reasonably weigh an ass-load.
Which funny enough was in the post you were replying to!

But she is incapable of making the mental leap to "Maybe I can lift this cannon?"
Which AGAIN ignores the point I made with pictures lol.

Stories of Luke as a Jedi would likely involve him doing jedi shit like lifting objects with his mind (note OBJECTS NOT MASSIVE DESTROYER AT ATs)
That I also made there.

Oh and let's not forget this comment!
Please tell me when Luke lifted a metric ass-load of rocks all at once.
Which I also explained, and you never acknowlegdeged again.

Shhhh, if you bring up TLJ plot holes, you'll get roped into a days-long argument from which there is no escape.
Also love the passive aggressive remark here that I called out!
Because nothing you brought is a plot hole. By literal definition.
You want an actual example of a plothole?

In jurrasic park when the T-Rex escapes his enclosure and attacks the Jeep, it's clear the area it's in is flat. However when it pushes the jeep towards the broken enclosure it's suddenly a big fuck off pit.

That is a plot hole. Going "why didn't character x do y instead" is not a plot hole, at best it's poor writing or to apply it to your complaints about Rey learning too fast, a plot contrivance that she is somehow the best at learning jedi stuff ever, which I disagree with, but at least the statment itself doesn't incorrectly use definitions.

Not that it matters because I doubt you'll actually address any of these points.

It's sad that you can't just say, "Oh I didn't think of that. Yeah it's a bit of a fuck-up, innit?"
So either you lack all self awareness or you really are a troll.

All these were from the last one page or so lol, you never addressed ANY of the specific points I made multiple times. So it's pretty clear you're the only one not willing to address stuff or go "oh I didn't think of that".

To actually be able to have those moments you have to actually discuss and continue discussing the points brought up, including the points YOU YOURSELF MADE. Instead when I provided my own points your examples disappeared!

But thanks for debating and for the continuous condescending tone
No worries! Thanks for the trolling, ignoring points, misrepresenting arguments, and projecting!

Like I said, next time just make it clear from the start that you don't actually care about reading people's posts or having a discussion! Because I went through each of your posts going through each point you made to discuss the reasons why I felt they were incorrect. If you're not willing to actually to do the same it seems pretty obvious which one of us is the one that doesn't actually want to acknowledge points they didn't consider.


I'm glad you are enjoying the ST.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy the next episode more!
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I'm still not understanding how quantifying feelings would help someone utilize the force more effectively. Because again, this is not what the films tell us about the force.

I understand those things work in our scientific, non-force based world, in regard to studying and learning about feelings though.
Well, if I had to give an example, I can put it forth to another movie. There is an anime movie called Summer Wars wherein an AI virus on the internet is has hacked government systems nad launched nuclear bombs all over the world, and various characters have the tools to stop it, but he's put up firewalls that protect it. So, the protagonist is a math genius who can perform a complex calculation, by hand, that disables the firewall the virus put up. It takes several minutes but he does it. So he has the equation's answer and rapidly types in the correct code and the firewall drops, but the virus AI just puts up it again with a new code. So he does it again, and the same thing happens. Again, but and again the virus resets it. Except now there is only 2 minutes left, and it took him more than 4 minutes to solve it the other times.

So instead he drops the pen and paper and slowly had this wierd, distant look, he is in this trance of pure, terrified concentration on his face. His hands are trembling and his nose starts bleeding, but slowly, one by one, he hits a sequence into the computer. He hits enter...and the firewall drops one last time, giving him the split second he needs to stop the virus AI.

It's the most intense math scene I've ever seen and all it had was a guy doing calculations. This could VERY easily be worked into a star wars movie, where the user gets in touch with the force not to throw lightning or swing a lightsaber, but simply guide himself through a complex mathematical equation that no one could do in their head otherwise. But I don't feel Luke or Rey could really do this because they're both...fighters and not math oriented. I doubt they could use the force to guide themselves through...math, they're just not those kinds of characters....but a mathematical force user just might be able to.

So, that would be my example of the force done through a mathematic framework, and that's not too far away from a scientific one.
 
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Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Well, if I had to give an example, I can put it forth to another show. There is an anime movie called Summer Wars wherein an AI virus on the internet is has hacked government systems nad launched nuclear bombs all over the world, and various characters have the tools to stop it, but he's put up firewalls that protect it. So, the protagonist is a math genius who can perform a complex calculation, by hand, that disables the firewall the virus put up. It takes several minutes but he does it. So he has the equation's answer and rapidly types in the correct code and the firewall drops, but the virus AI just puts up it again with a new code. So he does it again, and the same thing happens. Again, but and again the virus resets it. This time there are only seconds left before the bombs hit and everyone dies.

So instead he drops the pen and paper and slowly had this wierd, distant look of pure, terrified concentration on his face. His hands are trembling and his nose starts bleeding, but slowly, one by one, he hits a sequence into the computer. He hits enter...and the firewall drops one last time, giving him the split second he needs to stop the virus AI.

This could VERY easily be worked into a star wars movie, where the user gets in touch with the force not to throw lightning or swing a lightsaber, but simply guide himself through a complex mathematical equation that no one could do in their head otherwise. But I don't feel Luke or Rey could really do this because they're both...fighters and not math oriented. I doubt they could use the force to guide themselves through a math problem they don't understand. But a mathematical force user just might be able to.

So, that would be my example of the force done through a mathematic framework.
There's a difference between using feeling and emotion to do complex things and using math to wield the force. One of these makes sense in regard to what we've been taught about the force. Since it sounds like we're talking about the former, I'm behind it.

If you're talking about using feeling and emotion to appeal to the users strengths, that's something I totally agree with. Like Luke with starfighting. Rey with combat.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
There's a difference between using feeling and emotion to do complex things and using math to wield the force. One of these makes sense in regard to what we've been taught about the force. Since it sounds like we're talking about the former, I'm behind it.

If you're talking about using feeling and emotion to appeal to the users strengths, that's something I totally agree with. Like Luke with starfighting. Rey with combat.
They wouldn't be using math to wield the force, they'd be using the force to wield math. It's, fundamentally, no different than using the force to calculate where something should be shot, no less nonsensical than hitting a laser while blindfolded. The force guides correct action through entering the trance that lets your soul be connected to the rest of the universe. And then the force guides you to the right thing, by controlling you, guiding you, and there's no reason to think that can't be a keystroke as much as it is a sword swing.

Look, that's about as well as I can explain, but for me, there is no reason that a person couldn't use the force to solve a mathematical problem they can't solve otherwise or paint a portrait or write a composition of music that is impossible under normal standards. I'm still waiting for someone to realize that the force be be used for more than lifting rocks and write that story (even if lifting rocks is pretty cool and I have no problem with it). And that only works if I take Yoda at his word that the force is powered by belief, which doesn't just mean that his knowledge is incomplete, but that it MUST be incomplete, because someone out in the SW universe believes things that contradict him just as strongly.

And I think the Star Wars universe is just more interesting if one person doesn't have a monopoly on truth regarding the Force. It erases too much possibility otherwise.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
They wouldn't be using math to wield the force, they'd be using the force to wield math. It's, fundamentally, no different than using the force to calculate where something should be shot, no less nonsensical than hitting a laser while blindfolded. The force guides correct action through entering the trance that lets your soul be connected to the rest of the universe. And then the force guides you to the right thing, by controlling you, guiding you, and there's no reason to think that can't be a keystroke as much as it is a sword swing.

Look, that's about as well as I can explain, but for me, there is no reason that a person couldn't use the force to solve a mathematical problem they can't solve otherwise or paint a portrait or write a composition of music that is impossible under normal standards. I'm still waiting for someone to realize that the force be be used for more than lifting rocks and write that story (even if lifting rocks is pretty cool and I have no problem with it). And that only works if I take Yoda at his word that the force is powered by belief, which doesn't just mean that his knowledge is incomplete, but that it MUST be incomplete, because someone out in the SW universe believes things that contradict him just as strongly.

And I think the Star Wars universe is just more interesting if one person doesn't have a monopoly on truth regarding the Force. It erases too much possibility otherwise.
I get where you're coming from with this perspective! I'm not sure I would agree with it in the sense it being math to predict where the laser is going to be though.

Obviously this is completely my own interpretation, but I always got the feeling of destiny/an overall plan to have someone in the light succeed and effectively have a premonition, rather than it being a mathematical calculation on where it will be.

Though again, at this point it's very much down to interpretation of what's said in the movies, and I can definitely see where you're coming from with this. Though I do find it hilarious to picture a jedi in training cheating on his math exam using the force to get the answers lol.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
I get where you're coming from with this perspective! I'm not sure I would agree with it in the sense it being math to predict where the laser is going to be though.

Obviously this is completely my own interpretation, but I always got the feeling of destiny/an overall plan to have someone in the light succeed and effectively have a premonition, rather than it being a mathematical calculation on where it will be.

Though again, at this point it's very much down to interpretation of what's said in the movies, and I can definitely see where you're coming from with this. Though I do find it hilarious to picture a jedi in training cheating on his math exam using the force to get the answers lol.
For me, it goes back to the explanation I gave about how religious people use different practices to clear their mind and put themselves in a particular mindstate to get in touch with their spiritual side. My argument is that it's not any particular activity that lets you do this, but the repetition until your mind enters that trance. People have done it doing math, writing stories, carpentering, drawing, exercise, house chores, it could anything really.

So if the force is based on getting in touch with this spiritual side, which then guides you to doing that thing better, then you could theoretically use ANYTHING to do this. And what your talking about could still effectively be that. The force user in question has a premonition where they see waht the correct answer is and then write it down.

I like to imagine there are a bunch of force using hermits that think the Jedi knight order is hypocritical because they apply their force use for peace instead of truly pacifistic tasks like sculpting or something.


Edit: Also, to explain myself more, I love it when stories make a tense scene out of something I never expect to be tense. That's why I used a summer wars example. You would never think that some high schooler doing fucking math would be intense, but the set up and execution of that film makes it so that it's a very, very, very gripping moment. It also contains a very intense card game (think Uno made in the style of a Yugioh anime) and a pokemon/digimon like battle.

So I think there is potential in making a star wars movie that does that something like that, use the force to glorious effect to make something totally mundane epic.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
For me, it goes back to the explanation I gave about how religious people use different practices to clear their mind and put themselves in a particular mindstate to get in touch with their spiritual side. My argument is that it's not any particular activity that lets you do this, but the repetition until your mind enters that trance. People have done it doing math, writing stories, carpentering, drawing, exercise, house chores, it could anything really.

So if the force is based on getting in touch with this spiritual side, which then guides you to doing that thing better, then you could theoretically use ANYTHING to do this. And what your talking about could still effectively be that. The force user in question has a premonition where they see waht the correct answer is and then write it down.

I like to imagine there are a bunch of force using hermits that think the Jedi knight order is hypocritical because they apply their force use for peace instead of truly pacifistic tasks like sculpting or something.
Oh yeah I could see that too honestly, it's an interesting idea if nothing else lol.

And honestly assuming it works that way, I could see that as something that has happened/could happen, though i imagine some people might be pissed at it.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
They wouldn't be using math to wield the force, they'd be using the force to wield math. It's, fundamentally, no different than using the force to calculate where something should be shot, no less nonsensical than hitting a laser while blindfolded. The force guides correct action through entering the trance that lets your soul be connected to the rest of the universe. And then the force guides you to the right thing, by controlling you, guiding you, and there's no reason to think that can't be a keystroke as much as it is a sword swing.

Look, that's about as well as I can explain, but for me, there is no reason that a person couldn't use the force to solve a mathematical problem they can't solve otherwise or paint a portrait or write a composition of music that is impossible under normal standards. I'm still waiting for someone to realize that the force be be used for more than lifting rocks and write that story (even if lifting rocks is pretty cool and I have no problem with it). And that only works if I take Yoda at his word that the force is powered by belief, which doesn't just mean that his knowledge is incomplete, but that it MUST be incomplete, because someone out in the SW universe believes things that contradict him just as strongly.

And I think the Star Wars universe is just more interesting if one person doesn't have a monopoly on truth regarding the Force. It erases too much possibility otherwise.
I'm not sure if I didn't word it right, but I was (and am) agreeing with you. My point was that if you're saying they're using the force to improve their natural skills (ie math or whatever), then it makes sense. I'm not really sure how it would work in a film (I mean in terms of if it could be executed right), but I'd be open to the idea of the force being used for other stuff.

And again, this adheres to Yoda's lesson to Luke. That if you believe in yourself and your abilities, you can accomplish great things. That could be art, music, math, physical feats, whatever.

But the same concept applies here. It's not limited to lifting an X-Wing.

Which is why the metaphor is so damn potent and relatable.