That you focus on the one-day ban shows you miss the entire point.
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This is a pretty serious indictment of the moderation when you couldn't find issue with Caiops.
Perhaps, if you don't want to look like clowns, listen to your community and don't make idiotic, out of touch guidelines that you then have to rescind.
Are you even remotely going to address the off-sit permanent ban vs. slap on the wrist double-standard?
Perhaps, if you don't want to look like clowns, listen to your community and don't make idiotic, out of touch guidelines that you then have to rescind.
Are you even remotely going to address the off-sit permanent ban vs. slap on the wrist double-standard?
All humans all foulable and over the last decade I've disagreed with Chris many a time.
Disagreeing with a person does not give me the right to insult them, disrespect their contribution and then laugh to my friends about how I fucked them over.
What happened was not the fault of Chris, and there for they shouldn't be punished.
How to say: I haven't read anthing about this entire situation, doesn't understand it and still think I have to chime in on it without saying I haven't read anthing about this entire situation, doesn't understand it and still think I have to chime in on it
I'm gonna respond to this as someone who has been a casual reader of MC threads for a long time -- sometimes it's very hard to understand the context of a report.. For example, I skim these threads every week (skim, to be clear, mostly for my weird obsession with if the Series X is going to do well in Japan even though I don't own one yet), and it's still sometimes difficult for me to discern what is earnest and what is a troll without the proper context of the body of a user's history. We try our best, but given the number of reports we get, sometimes we don't have all the information easily available to us. And it can be really hard to understand the nuance of a report. When someone reports something as just "trolling", that isn't the most useful information because -- siloed from any context -- it might come across as simply a disagreement. We also cannot be in every single community at every given time, so we often lack the body of knowledge you all have. That's why the more detailed reports would be significantly more helpful to help us help you so we can actually understand the context of an individual troll who is potentially subtle.
We missed the mark on Caiops and I think we have to discuss the reporting system at large, but we can only go off of what's reported and the less detailed the report is, the more likely it is for something like this to fall through the cracks.
We missed the mark on Caiops and I think we have to discuss the reporting system at large, but we can only go off of what's reported and the less detailed the report is, the more likely it is for something like this to fall through the cracks.
Okay, so this is partly what I meant -- the first time we ever got word of this was yesterday in a ticket to the mods. It was an extremely helpful piece of information that helped people who aren't regular Sales ERA users get the context needed to inform our decision-making process. If you know there is a user who is posting on a Brazilian message board about trolling on ERA, that is helpful for us! That helps us do our jobs better.Thats the only thing you could find? are you sure?
Not the posts about caio making homophobic jokes about the switch audience?
Let me help you:
Just one example of what he did outside here, for a WHILE. But ok, he just doesnt care about japanese sales lol.
If you only knew how many ppl that have received q day or longer bans for nothing.
"If everyone in this thread just put up with mod abuse and forced guidelines that even the staff said shouldn't have happened everything would have been over!"
I mean, what are you saying there have been more unjustified bans?
Add me to the club too.
I'd also like to know the twitter handles of banned regulars, if that's fine to pass along? Mine is @GoldMetalSonic in case anything happens to me.
Honestly, I'd love to form a SalesERA successor myself but I don't really know Japanese (hence I can't natively read JP-sourced stuff) and don't have the insight and tools that Chris has. If anything, Chris is the one deserving to form his own forum successor or where ever and I'd immediately follow.
I can certainly make the new weekly threads (I've made a few over the years) but again that'd take time since I'd have to copy and paste references and such. Maybe ZSaberLink or hiska-kun can take over in the mean time?
Extremely disheartening outcome. I've been mostly lurking these threads for years so I don't see myself as part of sales era but both the actions that led to this as well as the consequences do nothing to address any of the concerns of this community or in any way help it. It still leaves ope questions about how disparaging remarks against members of sales in other parts of this board will be moderated. It still doesn't answer how obvious (like, painfully obvious) trolls will be handled. A mod basically doing the same thing (intentionally riling people up so they can be vilified) and then getting away scot free doesn't instil any confidence at all. I guess now that several regulars have just been driven out nobody has to concern themselves with the well-being of the thread regulars. You might have permabanned Caipos but in the end you've given them exactly what they wanted. I'm not sure how you expect other communities to react to something like this. How can we trust that mods frequenting community threads do so with good intentions when we have a clear example of one doing the exact opposite and getting a slap on the wrist for it?
No one said he is unctouchable, let's not misrepresent the actions going on here
We have gone past that point long ago, so please keep up with the conversation.
I've seen this attitude a lot, and I find it very frustrating and sort of twisted. Something that I think is continuously being overlooked is that Chris was more than just a forum shitposter; he put actual work and time into these threads. He owed no one any of this. Even if it was just one day, it was a reminder that he is devoting time to a thankless platform that ultimately he has neither control over nor trust in. To an average poster it would be a silly reaction, sure, but to be reminded so starkly that personal conflicts with the holders of your platform could rob you of your time and earnest effort without any recourse is an understandable cause to re-evaluate your role in a community, or to leave it altogether.
That seems to indicate that there is a problem with moderation as you say.
I do respect the staff post, and there's a lot to cover in response, but I want to respond specifically to this tidbit, before anything else.
The times listed are not Japanese. I live in Los Angeles, California, and both my Discord and Era accounts reflect the current time in LA. It wouldn't make sense for my screenshots to display a Japanese time zone.
My Era time zone setting:
A Discord timestamp from roughly 20 minutes ago:
With it established that my time zones are consistent, and synced across Era and Discord, it's clear I never pulled any kind of shady shenanigans, with regards to timestamps. Let's look once more at the post that originally got Chris banned:
Ok, so September 19, at 9:14 AM, Los Angeles time.
And now, a screenshot I just took, of the exact same message I already posted yesterday:
Alright, so September 19, at 2:41 AM, Los Angeles time.
That means cvxfreak's post predates that of Chris1964 by just under seven hours. I never claimed otherwise. I literally used the word "predates" in my initial post:
Intent was never to show that cvxfreak was "gloating about banning Chris", because yes, his posts took place before Chris was banned. Intent was to show proof that there was prior precedent for animosity between the two parties, and lack of good faith.
And there we go. What a baffling comment from the mod team that was so easily disproven. Either someone made a mistake (which is embarrassing for them) or someone deliberately tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes in order to defend a fellow mod. Given the fact that everything else cvx did has been completely swept under the rug, I know which one I'm leaning towards being the case.
Me too. SalesERA was the main reason I joined Resetera after the exodus, and it's sad to see that burned to the ground. All that will be left here is a hollow shell.
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The most recent troll wasn't the only one, so lets not pretend otherwise.
There have been many with the same MO that have been allowed free reign for months before they were banned only because they stepped out of line in other communities/threads.
There have been many with the same MO that have been allowed free reign for months before they were banned only because they stepped out of line in other communities/threads.
Kind of where I am at.
Feels very much like special treatment if you are a mod with a vacation to let the heat die down and you still get to be a mod after. A user with no actions prior gets a permaban.
The promise of "they won't pitch in on sales matters" feels hollow when users also have zero clue who is looking at these matters in the first place. I'm not sure the "trust us" really works after something like this.
Welp, seems like no going back huh. What cvx posted on discord, talking bad behind people's back and all that and receiving basically a slap on the wrist isn't a good look.
Anyway, I'm just a lurker / occasional poster and I missed the Chris leaving update before the threadlock, so I just wanna say thank you to Chris for his great work on MC threads. The MC threads will probably still continue to be made even after all this clusterfuck, but the expertise of Chris and the community who left will be sorely missed.
Anyway, I'm just a lurker / occasional poster and I missed the Chris leaving update before the threadlock, so I just wanna say thank you to Chris for his great work on MC threads. The MC threads will probably still continue to be made even after all this clusterfuck, but the expertise of Chris and the community who left will be sorely missed.
I think Ombala's being sarcastic tbh. Well I hope, but reading it again maybe not
Yeah, our only "salvation" is that trolls are also often homophobic, racist, and so on.
Why should he and those that were banned unfairly accept it?
This is just letting people walk over you and that isn't the way to go. Standing up for what you believe is the way to go. In this case they feel they were unfairly treated.
The forum isn't perfect which is why people need to give feedback. This helps it improve.
Pretty messed that the green frog was trolling for so long and only got banned for something unrelated to the usual behaviour.
Hit me up as well.
Although it would be nice if sales news weren't gone from this board. We should be able to talk about sales without fear.
More like, sometimes they faulter, it's human.
No system is bulletproof.
But there's no reason too feel so hurt over a ban
The fact that you're suddenly in here to chastise our response despite never actually being in these threads at all is old hat.
And exactly one of the problems we've been voicing for months.
LOL none taken! :)
I'm not Chris, I just try to do my best for the SalesERA community by taking over in Chris' absence if folks are fine with it! :)
Did you consider just asking the community for input on why someone was reported for "trolling" and why the community maybe regarded them with some degree of ire? (This isn't the first time a troll has had long-running stay with no repurcussions despite everyone in the community knowing they were a troll.)
And how said reported person was the one who set all of this off? Did this "coincidence" not set off some red flags that maybe, just maybe... they were actually trolling and goading posters to try to get them in trouble?
Basically says to me and everyone in the community that... you don't trust the community.
The guidelines that were set up were antagonistic to the community itself, and the fact that they were rescinded shows no real thought was put into them. "Missed the mark" sound like an excuse for something that could have easily been avoided and yet wasn't because no one interfaced with the community and, consequence of this, was those borderline insulting guidelines.
It wasn't unfair, though. Chris' warning, then followed by a 1-day ban, was according to the forum rules.
Let's just say this, if you have entered the MC threads the last years and not had the same opinions that the majority of members here, you have been dogpiled just like I am now.
So most just lurk and don't dare too write, it's have not been very welcoming threads.
Edit: Not gonna respond more nowbut think about it.
So most just lurk and don't dare too write, it's have not been very welcoming threads.
Edit: Not gonna respond more nowbut think about it.
Nah you're being "dogpiled" because you came in here to condescend.
I understand why so many people here are disappointed and want to leave but we need to realize that many people over the internet read these threads weekly and are entertained by the characters and takes we have here. I don't think Chris should leave here and he should return because people like to read these threads and he's an important part of the Japanese sales community. There are a lot of people we don't know who come in here every now and then and read the discussions. I think that's a lot more important than the mods making a bad decision.
There is one thing if someone is going out of line to someone that didn't deserve it, aka an innocent passerby that is curious of something sales related: if Chris lashed out very rudely, then a warning or the 1 day ban would be justified if he crossed the line for no reason
There's a world of difference between that and the person who originally provoked this user over the course of several months, not getting reprimanded and the one time Chris responds after dealing with it he gets reprimanded and then discord information comes out about how the whole thing came about from a Moderator. It isn't that it was a 1 day ban, it's the principle of the matter that is an issue. And that user has been trolling for a while. Punishing the one that deals with it but letting the one that went free go roam free?
At least the latter is banned now, but the other issue with the discord is needing to be addressed.
Also, Kaitos I truly appreciate you contextualizing it better on how it could have been difficult to see if it truly was trolling or a disagreement, it helps a bit to better see how Caiops seemingly went free for months.
There's a world of difference between that and the person who originally provoked this user over the course of several months, not getting reprimanded and the one time Chris responds after dealing with it he gets reprimanded and then discord information comes out about how the whole thing came about from a Moderator. It isn't that it was a 1 day ban, it's the principle of the matter that is an issue. And that user has been trolling for a while. Punishing the one that deals with it but letting the one that went free go roam free?
At least the latter is banned now, but the other issue with the discord is needing to be addressed.
Also, Kaitos I truly appreciate you contextualizing it better on how it could have been difficult to see if it truly was trolling or a disagreement, it helps a bit to better see how Caiops seemingly went free for months.
And the person they seemingly trusted the moderation of the community to specifically had it out for Chris and was openly saying so 7 hours before Caiops goaded Chris.
I assume you come here as an user first and moderator second. If that's the case, why didn't the staff search for a moderator with knowledge of these threads and that also participated in such threads, unlike cvxfreak? Not only that, trolling and abuse has been rampant in these threads ever since the inception of this forum. Kerotan, Psycho Mantis, Caiops, RPGamer2, etc, had come and gone, trolling and abusing without consequence, despite massive reporting. You also say it's hard to moderate, but why were regulars from this thread banned and permabanned for speaking against Chris ban and the guidelines?
I also want to ask about cvxfreak. What he received here was a simply slap in the wrist. BrunoMB, a invaluable user with deep knowledge of sales and without prior history of infractions was permabanned because he spoke against a mod on twitter. Why is a mod, cvxfreak, receiving a pass despite proof that he had malicious intent and made fun of user from this thread. Is he going to be protected just because he's a mod? I think the community(What left of it) deserve these answers at least, because this response is incredible weak.
The problem is not the ban. The problem is the breach of trust between the moderation team and the users. And trust is very difficult to repair.
Because you don't seem to understand the concept of justice. If a ban was wrongfully issued in the first place no member should have to accept it with their mouth shut. That's just now how it works.
If multiple people have been banned over nothing, as you claim, then it's not the users' fault. It's the mod team's.
PCera is a shell of its former self because they left this site. Same with MuslimEra, AsianEra, TransEra, etc. It just keeps happening with the moderation here. It needs to be better.
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What that not true, Oregano nearly always has different opinions and still "fights" for this thread.
I'm also just a lurker and had stupid opinions and never got attacked for that.
Usually people are annoyed when people start to use "Japan isn't worth it" as a defence why bad sales are okay.
For some reason this reminds me of back in 2017 when the communities transitioned through discord. Chris made a comment in discord that he didn't think he was well liked enough to have people follow where he went. Well let me rephrase that, he got the impression that people didn't like him at all.
Chris has been straight up harassed in these threads for well over a decade at this point. 10+ years of doing everything he does despite all that culminates in him getting banned but the other side going off scot free.
It's not the fact that it's only a day, because that doesn't matter. That ban may as well be permanent because there is no reason for Chris to want to continue at this point.
So no, we're not upset about just a one day ban. We're upset that this crap has been happening for years, and instead of listening to the reports of this community the staff would rather double down on the problem.
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