You know, fair point. If they want to speak up they should be listened to but if they don't then action needs to be taken without their input. Thanks for pointing that out. Hell, in this case silence would speak loudly enough.
MikeZ, lead designer of Skullgirls, makes an "I can't breathe" joke on stream
- Thread starter Professor Beef
- Start date
Top competitors--regardless of their race--should have absolutely no input as to what happens in this situation. I don't quite understand the logic behind that. EVO needs to have its own standards for what they feel is appropriate behavior.
Because ultimately it's their community and I'm not going to tell them how to police their own community. It's one thing if they don't speak up--as said above--but it's another to tell them that their voice doesn't matter.
Correct--they can do anything they want in their community. But when that community is now going to be represented on a larger stage by a corporation, that corporation then has to decide if that communities response to insensitivity aligns with theirs.
It's not about policing anyone's community. It's about determining if the way your community members behave is consistent with how we (EVO) want to present ourselves.
It's always interesting to see the difference in mindset on the gaming side.
There's already been responses so I'll largely leave it there. That being said, if the competitors don't like SG being withdrawn from EVO, let MikeZ answer to it. Maybe the players will get more than the "too soon" he's given the FGC.
It's an EVO tournament and therefore SG is being placed in the spotlight. For Skullgirls to be publicly ejected from the the compeition, with EVO organisers saying why, sends a message on what is and isn't tolerable.
To be clear, MikeZ has clarified that he was wrong to say "too soon". He tweeted this shortly after the apology.
"I did say I'm not a good speaker, and it's extra hard when you're crying and very aware that everyone will judge every word. I don't think it's fine, ever."
"I did say I'm not a good speaker, and it's extra hard when you're crying and very aware that everyone will judge every word. I don't think it's fine, ever."
👆🏼
Anything vile verbal and you lose the credibility from the community. Period.
Tbh there are also black people who will listen to their white friends do those kinda 'jokes' and stay silent as to not be seen as the 'angry black person' etc or afraid to highlight their blackness in mostly white spaces by speaking out.
Not going to cast aspersions on other black people but we all know people who let that shit pass. That's never been me and never will be. Best believe I'm challenging it even if it's a 'friend'.
What gets me is to listen to his smug and confident delivery of the 'joke' no hesitating, just looking for the right moment to inject it into the commentary.
Now he wants to tell us his crying online. Fuck outta here.
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That is what get me, the pause and the giggle, felt like dude been sitting on that for a while. it wasn't a reflex or off the cuff. It was premeditated. We seen these types before, when they say that shit to your face, we know what they say behind closed doors
I'm one of those black Evo patrons he insulted. I'm fine with banning him personally. I want HIM banned.
I wouldn't get extra vindication out of Skullgirls being banned, though. I simply don't agree that Skullgirls is just HIS game. It belongs to the players now. The FGC operated for years without dev involvement. This just happens to be a game where the dumbass dev comes from the FGC. Fuck him.
Banning the game is not a meaningful gesture, especially when you know he did work on almost EVERY GAME in this year's online lineup. He helped with KI. We banning that too? Them's Fightin Herds? A Z-ENGINE GAME. We just gonna have one open bracket at Evo this year because of one asshole?
I don't want this fool slapped on the wrist either, but we need a solution that punishes him more than it punishes the community.
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but just banning him especially right now is a slap on the wrist, he doesn't lose anything from it and it's not a good punishment. So what do you purpose? What is an acceptable punishment than if removing the game is a step to far?
I don't have a solution for RIGHT NOW. You can ban his ass FOREVER though and I would be fine.
"don't remove skullgirls!"
It's one event. One. its not people saying delist it from purchase.
its not people saying from all events.
people are saying it to make a point that no one is above repercussions. The sg community will still exist without this evo.
It's existed without ANY of them.
Black people are STILL getting killed by cops. "jokes" like this need more than a minor slap on the wrist.
It's one event. One. its not people saying delist it from purchase.
its not people saying from all events.
people are saying it to make a point that no one is above repercussions. The sg community will still exist without this evo.
It's existed without ANY of them.
Black people are STILL getting killed by cops. "jokes" like this need more than a minor slap on the wrist.
Being African American, I have a slightly different take. I would ask what game is he most prominently known for of those you mentioned? I would assert that it's Skull Girls? What stream did it happen on? Skull Girls. While he may have provided ancillary support to the other games mentioned they are not as intrinsically associated with him as Skull Girls is.
Them's Fighting Herds utilizing the Z-Engine in their game is not as direct a link to Mike Z as his brainchild Skull Girls is from a PR/Sales/Marking perspective. It would be tantamount to calling Final Fantasy XV: Pocket Edition Clockw0rk's game or better yet calling Death Stranding Herman Hulst's game which is nonsense.
The timing, his statements, his extremely close connection to Skull Girls and his potential violation of Lab Zero Games Code of Conduct all could make this a PR nightmare for EVO. The question is do they risk it or do they distance themselves?
Of all of those, Skullgirls is still his game. He's still implementing updates for it and I'm sure he was hoping to get a big sales boost from EVO, too.
If the community doesn't get to play the game at EVO because of his antics, so be it. The community can be pissed at him for his godawful excuse of a joke wrecking things and he can face actual consequences beyond "oh, he can't commentate at this online-only event."
Skullgirls doesn't need EVO for the community to feel validated.
The kicker is that even if people downplay it, EVO is still the largest fighting game event out there, to the point where many big Fighting Game releases are announced them a-la Quakecon and Blitzcon. There's still a good amount of "Validation" people can get from Evo, such as with Melee all those years ago (which also was a year Skullgirls almost got in, but wasn't able to thanks to Injustice basically buying the spot over). Because Skullgirls is basically a wide and diverse community, removing it from EVO doesn't hurt the community. as much as it ruins publicity.
On the other side, Skullgirls doesn't need EVO at all to exist. There's many other events that can, will, and already has hosted them, such as Combo Breaker. The significance of EVO is basically that it's shining a rare spotlight on the game that it would usually not get due to the nature of this new Online EVO, and people are feeling that major-burn of the idea of losing that spot thanks to Mike Z's horrid comment. To make it worse, Mike Z basically is the face of the series and also the man who's behind the development of it as well. It's hard to kick him off the company/game, and if they do, who knows where future Dev stuff for Skullgirls will go (or if Lab Zero would even make anything else in the fighting game market)
On the other side, Skullgirls doesn't need EVO at all to exist. There's many other events that can, will, and already has hosted them, such as Combo Breaker. The significance of EVO is basically that it's shining a rare spotlight on the game that it would usually not get due to the nature of this new Online EVO, and people are feeling that major-burn of the idea of losing that spot thanks to Mike Z's horrid comment. To make it worse, Mike Z basically is the face of the series and also the man who's behind the development of it as well. It's hard to kick him off the company/game, and if they do, who knows where future Dev stuff for Skullgirls will go (or if Lab Zero would even make anything else in the fighting game market)
I'm Black American too. I'm not denying Mike Z is more closely tied to Skullgirls than KI and Them's Fightin' Herds. And I'm not denying that Mike Z is (rightfully or wrongfully) seen as THE creator of Skullgirls. I'm not denying that it is the game he is most known for. I just don't agree that it's just HIS game now.
Evo needs to ban him. Lab Zero needs to fire him.
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even as the #1 dullgirls hater on this forum, i don't think i could cosign dropping the game from EVO
i mean, i would definitely understand why, but my feelings are that it would be less of a punishment for mikez and more of a punishment for the community
i mean, i would definitely understand why, but my feelings are that it would be less of a punishment for mikez and more of a punishment for the community
being bad at speaking isn't an excuse for the types of things he's said
Oh, so you're personally the one responsible for punishing him? Since when was punishing people your job? I didn't realize that was your responsibility?
I mean, they guy's ruined his reputation, probably his career, and probably some friends, all overnight. That seems to be a pretty severe and natural consequence for his actions already. Why go out of your way to "punish him"? Is it because that's not satisfying enough for you?
Alright now this is hokey. Of course people need to be punished, the idea is to get a message across. I think banning him from all EVO's should do that just fine.
Its not up to me on what happens, I'm just one guy but it has to be severe and I'm not convinced that it is by just banning him. Like it or not he's the face of skullgirls and him doing this hurts the community and the look of the game.
That is fair, i just wanted your perspective.
Imo, hold MikeZ himself accountable, not the skull girls community. Ban him from EVO and all the other majors, lobby for him to be fired from lab zero if you want.
Unless the skullgirls community has a history of this kind of behavior that MikeZ showed with this incident.
And i don't even like skullgirls and wouldn't miss it if it was gone.
Unless the skullgirls community has a history of this kind of behavior that MikeZ showed with this incident.
And i don't even like skullgirls and wouldn't miss it if it was gone.
But the question is banning the game, isn't it? Banning him from EVO would be a more appropriate. And honestly, a bit ironic for this EVO all things considered.
Aside from that though, I disagree with the idea that random people with no real relation to the situation at hand should be going out of their way to "punish" people through internet vigilantism. Doubly so when such vigilantism affects other people. Though, that's because I simply don't trust pitch-fork mobs to make fair and reasonable judgements. Mobs tend to be more sadistic than just.
I'd rather the natural and normal consequences of someone's actions 'punish' them. And at the moment, it does look like they're consequences -- judging by the firestorm of conversation MikeZ started; that does seem to be happening at the moment.
Anyone who think's it's their "role" to punish someone over the internet for saying something hurtful is insane. It's not your role to ensure "justice is served" or that a "message is sent." If any punishment occurs, it's up to the people involved to decide. His friends he was streaming with, the fans watching the stream, the skullgirls community, and in principle EVO whose hosting him, to decide what needs to happen. Some random person on resetera that barely even heard of "MikeZ" should be not be trying to "punish people" because they heard that MikeZ said something extremely radical sensitive on a stream.
Everything about this post is legit but these are the two especially salient points that I hope everyone who didn't already know better takes notes of.
Your pretending that we are just saying it for the sake of it or that we are calling for his head and we are not fans and haven't followed fighting games for decades. We don't want the game banned but It seems you are more okay with him getting off with a slap on the wrist which is what a ban from this EVO is. Yes it's up to the people involved but that doesn't make this impossible to dicuss or what we can give our opinions.
But, that's what we're talking about, isn't it? Like, a giant chunk of the posts in this thread are about demanding the game be banned from EVO.
Removed from this evo yes not in general, Skullgirls is a great game but its also in a big part Mike Z game which is why it should be removed or at least contimplated. Mike Z being banned from this EVO is not a punishment it's a slap on the wrist.
User Banned (1 month): Inflammatory commentary, history of concern trolling and inappropriate comments
"Slap on the wrist." So, again, between all the other crap he's brought upon himself, what exactly is the proper amount of "punishment" then until people are satisfied? Reading a lot of the post in this thread the impression I get isn't that people are trying to be fair and think of a good "punishment", but rather that people are being spiteful and want to make the man suffer severely, while not caring if it affects anyone else.
I'll admit though; the fact that EVO is online only this year does make banning him this year less effective. And again, I also believe random people on this forum who simply clicked on the thread shouldn't be sitting around deciding how to "punish" this guy.
For what it's worth I am personally in the ban from all EVO camp but the point people are trying to make is that yes SOMETHING has to be done. Attacking people's character by calling them insane isn't productive at all and doesn't actually address the issue at hand. Also you act as if people here are going to his house and whipping him or something. We're just talking about it. Also you have to understand that in most cases the "natural and normal consequences" don't ever actually hold someone responsible for their actions so that's a moot point anyway.
I wish you would read but you are not and you are pretending that we have a say in what happens. WE DON'T but that doesn't mean it's ok If he's only banned from online EVO than really he got away with being a racist asshole. You pretending like I am handing down punishment when it's my opinion. Here's my opinion if they don't ban him from EVO for the long term than Skullgirls should be removed from this years EVO and if they don't do either of those than that shows the FCG really doesn't give a shit and is willing to give him a pass.
I think your statement about getting the other games pulled in addition to Skull Girls is disengenuous--those other titles were not connected to Mike Z directly at the time of this incident. If he did have questionable tendencies/views they may not have been manifest at the time of his involvement in said projects--I can't imagine Them's Fighting Herds if their Kickstarter was today saying they would use Z-Engine regardless of his statements.
As he does most of the PR, he is listed as Designer/Programmer and has been the frontman for the game it's hard to argue it's not his game from a public perspective. I think that is what could get the game pulled from EVO.
Even if Lab Zero fired him and issued a public statement, you can't argue the negative stigmatism would still hover over the game.
Right now there is a 10VS10 in Granblue Versus, Team Arcsys VS Team Capcom, and that fucker ChrisG is on team Capcom. As long as you have some friends well placed, you're fine, even if you're a racist asshole.
In the case of MikeZ, it may be too much for them to ignore it, so we'll see.
You have my answer to all of that in the first paragraph of my post you quoted. Like you just ignored all of them qualifying statements to argue about some shit I don't even disagree with. My only point is in the FGC the games belong to players more than the devs. Fuck the devs. Capcom abandoned ST and 3S years ago. We still play it regardless. Nintendo abandoned Melee years ago. It's still a staple. Evo ain't about the devs.
And I really don't care if a negative stigma hovers over the game after Mike Z gets banned and fired. Let there be a negative stigma. I want the community to send a message that Mike Z's behavior is intolerable, not to sweep that shit under the rug. Keep all the negative stigmas forever.
Is he also involved in Indivisible? I was literally just looking into that game, but if he's part of it, I'm going elsewhere.
I think its to do with whether or not hes currently making money from the game being there? I don't think there was ever a talk of removing Counter Strike after the games co-creator Cliffe was a convicted sex offender.
There's some sadness to a game like Skullgirls, one championed by so many PoC (myself included) and non-binary folks and developed by a very open and diverse dev team (not Mike), getting banned because Mike is a total shithead. I get why people feel it's necessary, it just sucks that he's tied to this particular game.
It is what it is, but the idea of it still makes me sad.
Same thing with Indivisible.
It is what it is, but the idea of it still makes me sad.
Same thing with Indivisible.
I'm a queer person who loves seeing LGBTQ+ representation in games, and Lab Zero Games has given that in their games (including Skullgirls). That being said, fuck MikeZ and fuck Skullgirls being at Evo. Examples need to be made. Perma-ban Mike and take Skullgirls off this year's list of games. Does it suck for the rest of the team? Yes. Does it suck for Skullgirls players? Yes. But a black man was murdered by white cops in front of an audience and the face of that game thought it was funny. No amount of pouring your heart into that game as a developer or a player is ever going to matter as much as that murder that MikeZ found humor in. And frankly I'd like to see the teams he worked with on other games (KI for example) come out and denounce him.
Jesus.
I'm not really involved in the FGC. I don't know Mike on a personal level or as a personality, so I won't make any assumptions on him and certainly wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they should feel about this, but he needs to do better. That joke fucking sucks and so does his public apology.
I'm not really involved in the FGC. I don't know Mike on a personal level or as a personality, so I won't make any assumptions on him and certainly wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they should feel about this, but he needs to do better. That joke fucking sucks and so does his public apology.
But we do have a say. We're the public opinion, and public opinion is important. You're right that we don't have direct influence and that, by itself, a ban from an online EVO is weak. That said:
Fair enough on the calling people insane. But when you say "you act as if people here are going to his house and whipping him or something": I'm willing to bet a lot of posters here, if given the chance, would actually do that. We can ask the people here: Anyone whose in this thread and upset: Would you go and beat the shit out of MikeZ if given the chance to do so consequence free?
I'm willing to bet a lot of people would.
You might think I have a low opinion of people in general, but I think a lot of people here would jump at the chance if given. If nothing else, what you're asking for is actually not extreme compared to what other people are asking for in this thread. In this thread we have people asking for a permanent ban of both him and Skullgirls from EVO, along with: Him being fired from his job, his friends abandoning and denouncing him, and there have been comments implying one should boycott the game's he's known for -- including Indivisible which is actually respected for being multicultural. Reading the post's here, it comes off as people wanting to completely destroy the man's life, forever, and erase everything he's ever done. That's quite a bit more extreme than what you're personally proposing.
You're not really saying anything.
You just made a judgement call on people's character. I don't think it's particularly important what your opinion on a bunch of random strangers on the Internet's personality is. Just because you say people are extreme and unreasonable doesn't mean they actually are.
There's really nothing to discuss about your opinion. If you just wanted to vent then you do you but you've made 0 points whatsoever.
During the 1948 summer olympics, Japanese and German athletes were not able to compete as their countries were not invited. It didn't matter that they trained hard or weren't involved in any war, what matters is sending a message.
Skullgirls not being in the 2020 EVO tournament would send a great message, that the gaming community does not tolerate racism, no matter how casual or 'funny' or 'too soon' it may be.
The world we live in is at war. Not only with a deadly virus, but with something far more detrimental to human quality of life; racism. In the war on racism there will be casualties. Not being able to play your favourite game at a tournament will be such a casualty, but MikeZ brought it onto himself and his fans/community.
Skullgirls not being in the 2020 EVO tournament would send a great message, that the gaming community does not tolerate racism, no matter how casual or 'funny' or 'too soon' it may be.
The world we live in is at war. Not only with a deadly virus, but with something far more detrimental to human quality of life; racism. In the war on racism there will be casualties. Not being able to play your favourite game at a tournament will be such a casualty, but MikeZ brought it onto himself and his fans/community.
