My apologies I didn't mean to argue, it wasn't my intent. You make some very valid points. The game itself shouldn't be demonized, he should be.
MikeZ, lead designer of Skullgirls, makes an "I can't breathe" joke on stream
- Thread starter Professor Beef
- Start date
My apologies I didn't mean to argue, it wasn't my intent. You make some very valid points. The game itself shouldn't be demonized, he should be.
Oof, damn it, Mike. Watching that clip was honestly painful.
The worst part is I know exactly where this is coming from. Me and my friends used to apply gallows humor to pretty much everything back in high school. Being insecure, in retrospect, it was probably just a strategy of disarming the stigma of certain topics which sounds all fine and dandy. What I don't understand is why Mike even felt the impulse to approach this particular subject with that frame of mind as an adult? Like, OK, if you actually wanted to bring up the issue - why not just call for an announcement between games and talk about it genuinely? Nothing about his prior public behavior would make me think he doesn't take this issue seriously (unless I've missed something) so it's just weird to me. Even taking his apology at face value from the best possible angle, it still just means he simply doesn't have the courage to stand up and speak on issues he allegedly cares about. If so, find another non-dismissive way of bringing it up or just don't even bother, sheesh.
I don't mean to excuse his behavior because again, holy shit that was shocking in the worst possible way in the moment, but it does hit close to home as a general type of personal expression. I just can't even imagine applying it to an ongoing civil rights issue (not to mention people actively mourning) even as a teenager. I do personally think his apology is genuine (again, based on previous actions - maybe I'm just being naïve). Unfortunately I don't really think that matters, something I bet Mike himself agrees on. The damage has been done and rebuilding trust with people is going to take some serious work over a long period of time. Some fucked up shit, man.
For once, this word actually applies.
The worst part is I know exactly where this is coming from. Me and my friends used to apply gallows humor to pretty much everything back in high school. Being insecure, in retrospect, it was probably just a strategy of disarming the stigma of certain topics which sounds all fine and dandy. What I don't understand is why Mike even felt the impulse to approach this particular subject with that frame of mind as an adult? Like, OK, if you actually wanted to bring up the issue - why not just call for an announcement between games and talk about it genuinely? Nothing about his prior public behavior would make me think he doesn't take this issue seriously (unless I've missed something) so it's just weird to me. Even taking his apology at face value from the best possible angle, it still just means he simply doesn't have the courage to stand up and speak on issues he allegedly cares about. If so, find another non-dismissive way of bringing it up or just don't even bother, sheesh.
I don't mean to excuse his behavior because again, holy shit that was shocking in the worst possible way in the moment, but it does hit close to home as a general type of personal expression. I just can't even imagine applying it to an ongoing civil rights issue (not to mention people actively mourning) even as a teenager. I do personally think his apology is genuine (again, based on previous actions - maybe I'm just being naïve). Unfortunately I don't really think that matters, something I bet Mike himself agrees on. The damage has been done and rebuilding trust with people is going to take some serious work over a long period of time. Some fucked up shit, man.
"Gallows humour" only works when its the joke-maker's neck in the noose.
Yeah I was referring to the silence on stream. Good on him for apologizing though. Seemed sincere at least.
And your avoiding the fact that people are asking for far more serious consequences than your are. To wit:
People like NoKisum would like to actually delist the game. Which would effectively erase the game and make judgement for other people. If that's not an extreme over-reaction, I don't know what is.
Also, a side note, since people in this thread haven't actually been keeping up with the incident and subsequent responses-- people in this thread keep asking easily searchable awnsers--I'd like to mention this:
For context, some people on twitter insisted that MikeZ should donate as form of penance or to show sincerity. Apparently, he's already been donating since before this happened. Granted he's still being a bit flippant but given both his history, the fact he donates to charities, the people he surrounds himself with...I think it's safe to say that he isn't a closet white supremacist like Markus Persson or Palmer Lucky. He's not using proceeds from Skullgirls to donate to racist organizations like Palmer Lucky or Markus Peterson. Rather, he appears to just be a massive ***** moron at the moment. Which, yeah I'm fine with him getting his lumps for that -- his comment was what the fuck is wrong with you levels of stupid -- but some people here want to basically destroy the man completely. In particular, banning or I suppose delisting now, Skullgirls from EVO really accomplishes nothing but spite and screws over a bunch of people.
So, that's my opinion. He's a massive dumbass who deserves to get ripped a new one, and I'm not sure understands how much of dumbass he's being right now. But I also don't think he's a white supremacist or a completely irredeemable person. I expect something to happen to him, but wanting his life ruined and all his work taken from him is too extreme. Finally, of all the possible consequences, the whole "Ban Skullgirls from EVO" thing is ridiculous since it's nothing but a spiteful move meant to hurt MikeZ emotionally, and doing so will screw a bunch of people who had been playing (or making) the game through no fault of their own.
"Okay, here's one from last week, well before anyone got on my case about anything. How is that? "
Ya, he's learned nothing.
Ya, he's learned nothing.
It's not my place to be offended by this, and so not my place to dictate whether he should be forgiven here. For others who have little skin in the game in the incident, consider that other people's emotions are more important than your here.
Just trying to understand the situation, though, I'm struck by how weird this is in context. Like, I don't see possibility which doesn't leave me wondering what could have been going on in this man's brain. If it was nothing but a dehumanizing joke, the guy seems to have deliberately been building up the sort of audience that might eat him alive for it, and still said it after pausing to think about it. If he was trying to raise the topic, he immediately dropped that idea and tried to go back to banter.
Similarly, he frustrates his use of his charitable donations as proof of his sincerity when he expresses it in a get off my back way. Just continually making things harder than they need to be.
Just trying to understand the situation, though, I'm struck by how weird this is in context. Like, I don't see possibility which doesn't leave me wondering what could have been going on in this man's brain. If it was nothing but a dehumanizing joke, the guy seems to have deliberately been building up the sort of audience that might eat him alive for it, and still said it after pausing to think about it. If he was trying to raise the topic, he immediately dropped that idea and tried to go back to banter.
Similarly, he frustrates his use of his charitable donations as proof of his sincerity when he expresses it in a get off my back way. Just continually making things harder than they need to be.
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Excuse me? I'm not avoiding anything. I'm sure there are people asking for more serious consequences. I said that your judgement calls on people's character is just that. You haven't established a larger point you have just stated that you think people are being irrational. Do you want me to convince you otherwise or something? If that's how you read the situation then I highly doubt anyone here is going to change your mind and nobody here really has to change your mind because again your opinion on people's character is not particularly important in the matter.
I'm not avoiding anything, there's nothing to avoid. You haven't made a point. You just blogged about what you think of people.
Truth ✊🏾
Don't like how minorities are now being used as shields, just like when it was during gamergate, being weaponised for others' causes.
don't just be part of the conversation, be part of the work
Fam. FAM. Did you just compare Skullgirls players to the Axis Powers? Like I get the point you're trying to make, and don't entirely disagree with it even though I've made my case for why the game shouldn't be banned, but you really need to think twice before you start drawing Nazi comparisons.
But for gamers, a video game tournament is more important than black lives, and giving up money and visibility to a racist piece of shit.
Thank you, Bros ✊🏿
The FGC at large isn't but EVO absolutely is, first and foremost. There are more players banned from EVO for leaking info on Capcom games than for personal misconduct.
I pictured athletes that did not take part in anything and who were firebombed for just being citizens of the country at war, not soldiers (if those people/athletes existed). On the other hand, I can see why it would be good if Skullgirl players got a podium to denounce racism.
You're right. Evo has been growing more corporate in recent years, but that's another issue. Evo is meant to be a grassroots affair, and even though it's moving away from that, I don't think WE should be the ones saying devs are more important than the players.
"Well before anyone got on my case about anything" "How is that?"
Lol you cant be this dense like if you are really sorry dont be so defensive.
Lol you cant be this dense like if you are really sorry dont be so defensive.
If Mike actually cares about the future of the Skullgirls and the community then he should step down from the lead designer role and hand the keys to the ship to someone else. The game and community shouldn't be thrown under the bus for his mistakes.
Sharpie was right to try and stop him from apologizing. These (I assume) un-filtered responses are telling.
It's one thing to conveniently blame terrible sounding stuff in your apology as being "not worded correctly"(so he doesn't have to take responsibility for it), it's another to completely miss the point of why people want him to donate. They don't want you to show them reciepts, they want you to donate again for the harm you've caused just recently.
If he did have a racist past, we wouldn't be having this discussion. EVO shouldn't allow it's devs 1 racist joke if they're "woke" enough until then. That's not how this works. This is "racist enough" for that to be punishable, Skullgirls community. Blame your dev for that.
If people are actually going to be held accountable for their racist shit, then EVO should take out Skullgirls. Because this guy clearly isn't treating his mistake with the respect it deserves.
Yeah dude needs to learn to shut up because he's just making it worse.
I've got terrible social skills and sometimes say things in ways that are more abrasive sounding then I intend so I can get having a faux pas but I also learned that after it happens you should try and shut up and think carefully about what you say next.
I'd hate to punish the players but unless he steps down from Lab Zero banning Skullgirls from EVO may be the only way.
I've got terrible social skills and sometimes say things in ways that are more abrasive sounding then I intend so I can get having a faux pas but I also learned that after it happens you should try and shut up and think carefully about what you say next.
I'd hate to punish the players but unless he steps down from Lab Zero banning Skullgirls from EVO may be the only way.
I've leaked lots of things, been to EVOs and never banned. *shrugs*
.. Do you have names? FChamp leaked MvCI beta tests with images and videos showing his own room and was at EVO just fine the same year!
Who is this person that got banned from EVO for leaking Capcom stuff?
The rest of your post is fine, but Mike was literally asked to show the proof he had been donating.
He should keep donating, though, and I concur that Sharpie was right to tell him to shut up given...this. Hell, everybody's telling him to shut up. lol
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Edit: sorry that was not really how I meant it, I am afraid it would escalate the situation
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Did i miss the heel turn of SonicFox ?
WHY on Earth SonicFox would do that ?
What if he is banned and Sonicfox creates a robot army to take revenge? Lets stop inventing bullshit and deal with the pile in front of us
I think you misread Sonic Fox's post if that was your takeaway.
"It's easier for me to forgive him, I don't expect you to do the same" isn't a pass.
I like to read it as Sonic Fox is reviving the Red Ribbon army and waiting to unleash it.
Well now I feel like a jackass because I have zero evidence to share, so believe me or don't, but there was a time around 2010 where MvC3 and... something else (SSF4 PC? it's been a while) were open secrets but the SRK staff didn't like people talking about them and MrWiz sort of indiscriminately jumped on people for "leaking" stuff. One guy showed me the message he'd gotten about his lifetime EVO ban and he told me other people had received similar messages, and I took it on face, but I do wonder if anyone actually tested it to see if it'd be upheld or it was just dude blowing up. Either way, I still think back to that whenever discussions come up about Infiltration or other people who really ought to be banned but aren't.
It seems like simply banning the person might not be a sufficient consequence when the game stands to make a financial profit from its appearance. It seems like an appropriate punishment might be to remove it from the list of games this year.
Maybe that means that the game never comes back because they return to the normal format in the future. That would be unfortunate for the company, and community, but many other titles won't even get a first chance to appear.
The game will still exist after this tournament comes and goes so losing this chance this one time would give a powerful example of the kind of approach that might be necessary going forward.
Maybe that means that the game never comes back because they return to the normal format in the future. That would be unfortunate for the company, and community, but many other titles won't even get a first chance to appear.
The game will still exist after this tournament comes and goes so losing this chance this one time would give a powerful example of the kind of approach that might be necessary going forward.
User banned (permanent): Concern trolling on racial topics
That is true, I may have worded it not correctly but for example if Sonicfox tweeted:
"0MG EVO banned Skullgirls.. I understand it, and I forgive MikeZ, but maybe we can change @EVO2020organisation his mind and show him that we want to bring a positive attitude to EVO!!" I would expect a lot of people to send death threats towards the organisation.
So let's hope it does not come to that.
Maybe if he steps down and gives all the profits during/from EVO to a charity related to the cause. Would that allow the game to be there in your opinion?
Can we not with sort of nonsense?
Talk on MikeZ donating before or after his 'joke' is irrelevant too.
Okay, normally I get annoyed when gaming era goes on about concern trolling, but this is the clearest example of that I've ever seen.
OP
OP
So now there's conspiracy theories being floated about SonicFox wanting to take down EVO in this thread
how hard is it to just not type anything?
how hard is it to just not type anything?
I'm not sure my opinion is all that important, but the profit is a natural outcome of the exposure it gets. Profits aside, giving the game exposure is also a big part of the advantage of an appearance. To give up the profits without losing the exposure seems like something half-hearted, or a half-measure. I would advocate for a more definitive action, either a "we're keeping it" or "we're getting rid of it", with transparency on their decision making process.
I can't help but think that the organization is not really able to afford to be overly compassionate in this particular climate, regardless of their particular inclinations. It feels like an "I'm in" or "I'm out" situation, so I don't envy what must be happening with the decision makers right now.
Fair enough. I did admire the game for being inclusive on several sexual orientations to the point of respecting genders and everything. It saddens me that this seems to have been for show maybe? I don't agree on financial decisions the game made, but I can see what they tried to do for the above mentioned groups.
it is sad in a way that the creator had to do this "joke", because I do believe before all this, the game did good. But I fully understand any backlash. And if a person is capable of such 'joke', I am afraid the rest was for show as well. I hope I am wrong
So of course, today of all days, my long awaited Collector's Edition copy of Indivisible finally decides to show up at my door step. I don't even know what to do with this thing anymore.