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Deeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
966
United States
Why is everyone including DDR4 RAM with HBM?

Aren't consoles supposed to have that same singular type of memory in the shared unified pool? PS5 almost certainly uses GDDR6 anyways.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
If they are using HBM I assume it will be implemented like with Vega?

Image_02S.jpg


I agree about a further increase of heat from this vs GDDR6, Colbert. It would add ~20W to an already 150-200W APU. The Sony heatsink patent then might come in handy.

Also need to consider what voltage, and you frequency is at that will cause heat issues. Radeon iiv had a uneven heatsink that once was modded actually had no issue cooling. And we're talking 1700-1800mhz you frequency, and over 1000mhz for memory. Vega runs hot because it's overvolted because it comes from a render card arch.

If they are using non gcn arch, on 7-7+nm process clocked lower with 52+cu count with proper heatsink. I don't think cooling will be an issue.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,264
Why is everyone including DDR4 RAM with HBM?

Aren't consoles supposed to have that same singular type of memory in the shared unified pool? PS5 almost certainly uses GDDR6 anyways.
I imagine it has to do with the 1GB of DDR3 RAM that Sony added to the PS4 Pro, which was for background apps and the like, if I'm not mistaken.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,916
Why is everyone including DDR4 RAM with HBM?

Aren't consoles supposed to have that same singular type of memory in the shared unified pool? PS5 almost certainly uses GDDR6 anyways.
It was in the original rumor. It mentions use of HBCC to regulate the different RAM. It can appear as a unified whole or separated for individual tasks. A shared pool can sometimes cause the bandwidth to harshly drop when in use by the GPU and CPU at the same time. This HBM/DDR4/HBCC solution would seemingly rectify that.

I'd say GDDR6 is more likely but I think HBM has potential as well based on everything up to this point.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
Also need to consider what voltage, and you frequency is at that will cause heat issues. Radeon iiv had a uneven heatsink that once was modded actually had no issue cooling. And we're talking 1700-1800mhz you frequency, and over 1000mhz for memory. Vega runs hot because it's overvolted because it comes from a render card arch.

If they are using non gcn arch, on 7-7+nm process clocked lower with 52+cu count with proper heatsink. I don't think cooling will be an issue.

Makes sense. I really do hope Sony can come up with a nice and quiet cooling solution but 12/13TF has me worried.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
L
Makes sense. I really do hope Sony can come up with a nice and quiet cooling solution but 12/13TF has me worried.

The Devkit design should be a clue. That's what people is banking on.

Not definitive, of course, just a possible route

In any case, no need to worry about possible thermal issues or RRoD scenarios before they happen (said RRoD, that has been mentioned here, wasn't even a Sony console)

All will make sense when we see the final specs and PS5 design.
 
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Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I really don't think the PS5 is going to be 13tf. Like I have posted before i think that it's going to be between 10tf and 11tf. Alot of you guys came to the 13tf because the PS5 is supposed to have a slight edge according to Klee but I don't think he ever mentioned that slight advantage coming from a higher Teraflop number. If anything I think the advantage in power might come from a better bandwith coupled with new SSD tech which results in a better overall balance instead of the brute force way.
 

Evodelu

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 19, 2019
558
I really don't think the PS5 is going to be 13tf. Like I have posted before i think that it's going to be between 10tf and 11tf. Alot of you guys came to the 13tf because the PS5 is supposed to have a slight edge according to Klee but I don't think he ever mentioned that slight advantage coming from a higher Teraflop number. If anything I think the advantage in power might come from a better bandwith coupled with new SSD tech which results in a better overall balance instead of the brute force way.
Yes he did.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
L


The Devkit design should be a clue. That's what people is banking on.

Not definitive, of course, just a possible route

Well I'm not basing my worry on the dev kit design but clearly the size of it and the cooling are far in excess of what the PS4/Pro dev kits had.

I've experienced the One X quietness and just hope Sony have taken notes. The Pro just wasn't acceptable to me in my case.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands

Can you quote the specific post that you are talking about? I just checked the threadmarks and, apart from him saying that both consoles are above 10tf and that the PS5 has a slight performance edge, I couldn't find any post in which he states that the PS5 has the performance edge because the PS5 has a higher flop count.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,839
Can you quote the specific post that you are talking about? I just checked the threadmarks and, apart from him saying that both consoles are above 10tf and that the PS5 has a slight performance edge, I couldn't find any post in which he states that the PS5 has the performance edge because the PS5 has a higher flop count.

I don't know if he said it explicitly but it was inferred, the discussion back then was entirely about teraflops.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
A lot of this discussion is missing the most important component of these builds...pricing based on business strategy. Ryan has already talked about moving gamers over from current gen asap. Sony has 100 million PS4s and their business relies heavily on a traditional model right now. They need to thread the needle more carefully than Microsoft who has less of a base to transition and who's growth will rely on Lockhart, Cloud and PC. Microsoft doesn't lose as much having a top end model sitting on their show floor that only sells to enthusiasts due to it's cost.

Next gen will be defined by the CPUs and I/O speed. This is why I'm 100% in favor of Lockhart. CPUs and I/O speed is why next gen is exciting. It's why we'll get new experiences and different game design. GPU will net you increased resolution, bells and whistles...scalable stuff. 8Tflops with a Zen CPU will get you 4K/60 and no load times with an option to trade resolution for more visual effects. Casual market will not notice the difference between an 8tflop image and a 12tflop image. Hell...I'm betting most of the enthusiasts won't notice outside of side by sides considering resolution won't be a factor the way a 40% GPU difference got you from 900P to 1080P in 2013. The PC market has grown this past gen because that's where the image enthusiasts have gone. Getting into a tflop pissing match on the console side is dumb for the market leader.

A less eccentric design also allows Sony to have full backwards compatibility without any magic on the software side as Shpeshal Ed mentioned.

Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
Well I'm not basing my worry on the dev kit design but clearly the size of it and the cooling are far in excess of what the PS4/Pro dev kits had.

I've experienced the One X quietness and just hope Sony have taken notes. The Pro just wasn't acceptable to me in my case.

So is good that the new Devkits are cooling-conscious then, when the Pro weren't ;)

To me it shows that they are fully aware of the issues.

I'm glad that we moved from the "HMB2 is not possible, too expensive, doesn't make sense" scenario to the "How do we cool the PS5" one, though.

Which is the one we were having when 13TF was rumored, and people were talking about the new cooling patent etc.
Again, everything is coming nicely together...
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I don't know if he said it explicitly but it was inferred, the discussion back then was entirely about teraflops.

After reading the threadmarks just now it looked to me that he was responding to the question if situation had changed regarding the PS5 having a slight edge. To which he answered that it hasnt. Again no specific mention about Teraflops.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.
This is the part I struggle with as well. I can't see any good reason to leave that $399 sweet spot that worked so well for the PS4 and Pro. I see many reasons not to leave it.
 

Evodelu

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 19, 2019
558
Can you quote the specific post that you are talking about? I just checked the threadmarks and, apart from him saying that both consoles are above 10tf and that the PS5 has a slight performance edge, I couldn't find any post in which he states that the PS5 has the performance edge because the PS5 has a higher flop count.
I'm not near my laptop right now so it would be too much of a pain. Klee already previously said "more flops", look closer.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,001
Europe
A lot of this discussion is missing the most important component of these builds...pricing based on business strategy. Ryan has already talked about moving gamers over from current gen asap. Sony has 100 million PS4s and their business relies heavily on a traditional model right now. They need to thread the needle more carefully than Microsoft who has less of a base to transition and who's growth will rely on Lockhart, Cloud and PC. Microsoft doesn't lose as much having a top end model sitting on their show floor that only sells to enthusiasts due to it's cost.

Next gen will be defined by the CPUs and I/O speed. This is why I'm 100% in favor of Lockhart. CPUs and I/O speed is why next gen is exciting. It's why we'll get new experiences and different game design. GPU will net you increased resolution, bells and whistles...scalable stuff. 8Tflops with a Zen CPU will get you 4K/60 and no load times with an option to trade resolution for more visual effects. Casual market will not notice the difference between an 8tflop image and a 12tflop image. Hell...I'm betting most of the enthusiasts won't notice outside of side by sides considering resolution won't be a factor the way a 40% GPU difference got you from 900P to 1080P in 2013. The PC market has grown this past gen because that's where the image enthusiasts have gone. Getting into a tflop pissing match on the console side is dumb for the market leader.

A less eccentric design also allows Sony to have full backwards compatibility without any magic on the software side as Shpeshal Ed mentioned.

Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.
Well said.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
After reading the threadmarks just now it looked to me that he was responding to the question if situation had changed regarding the PS5 having a slight edge. To which he answered that it hasnt. Again no specific mention about Teraflops.

No TF mention iirc. People just inferred from the 12TF Series X reveal by WC.

Imo, both are gonna be between 11.2TF-12.9TF

Which is like nothing, ~5% difference either way, because I'm sure both will try to boost them further
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
A lot of this discussion is missing the most important component of these builds...pricing based on business strategy. Ryan has already talked about moving gamers over from current gen asap. Sony has 100 million PS4s and their business relies heavily on a traditional model right now. They need to thread the needle more carefully than Microsoft who has less of a base to transition and who's growth will rely on Lockhart, Cloud and PC. Microsoft doesn't lose as much having a top end model sitting on their show floor that only sells to enthusiasts due to it's cost.

Next gen will be defined by the CPUs and I/O speed. This is why I'm 100% in favor of Lockhart. CPUs and I/O speed is why next gen is exciting. It's why we'll get new experiences and different game design. GPU will net you increased resolution, bells and whistles...scalable stuff. 8Tflops with a Zen CPU will get you 4K/60 and no load times with an option to trade resolution for more visual effects. Casual market will not notice the difference between an 8tflop image and a 12tflop image. Hell...I'm betting most of the enthusiasts won't notice outside of side by sides considering resolution won't be a factor the way a 40% GPU difference got you from 900P to 1080P in 2013. The PC market has grown this past gen because that's where the image enthusiasts have gone. Getting into a tflop pissing match on the console side is dumb for the market leader.

A less eccentric design also allows Sony to have full backwards compatibility without any magic on the software side as Shpeshal Ed mentioned.

Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.

I think going 10tf at $399 or close to that with the faster ssd solution is a better bet. Even if it's more like $450.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Can you quote the specific post that you are talking about? I just checked the threadmarks and, apart from him saying that both consoles are above 10tf and that the PS5 has a slight performance edge, I couldn't find any post in which he states that the PS5 has the performance edge because the PS5 has a higher flop count.
I don't know in what kinda of bizzarre universe an hardware ahead in performance has a lower TF counts. And people here tries to talk even of 2TF of difference. With both AMD threadmark. Do people care to read what tries to argue? The more worrying thing it's the incredible persistence of such nonsense talk by so many people.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,163
Can you quote the specific post that you are talking about? I just checked the threadmarks and, apart from him saying that both consoles are above 10tf and that the PS5 has a slight performance edge, I couldn't find any post in which he states that the PS5 has the performance edge because the PS5 has a higher flop count.

He said nothing has change and that was after we found out the 12TF number for MS .
He has said it more than once also .
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,916
Jason, Matt, Klee - "Both consoles will be very powerful and very much so on par with one another"

A few on Era - "A $399 PS5 at 8TF seems more likely"

🤔
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
A lot of this discussion is missing the most important component of these builds...pricing based on business strategy. Ryan has already talked about moving gamers over from current gen asap. Sony has 100 million PS4s and their business relies heavily on a traditional model right now. They need to thread the needle more carefully than Microsoft who has less of a base to transition and who's growth will rely on Lockhart, Cloud and PC. Microsoft doesn't lose as much having a top end model sitting on their show floor that only sells to enthusiasts due to it's cost.

Next gen will be defined by the CPUs and I/O speed. This is why I'm 100% in favor of Lockhart. CPUs and I/O speed is why next gen is exciting. It's why we'll get new experiences and different game design. GPU will net you increased resolution, bells and whistles...scalable stuff. 8Tflops with a Zen CPU will get you 4K/60 and no load times with an option to trade resolution for more visual effects. Casual market will not notice the difference between an 8tflop image and a 12tflop image. Hell...I'm betting most of the enthusiasts won't notice outside of side by sides considering resolution won't be a factor the way a 40% GPU difference got you from 900P to 1080P in 2013. The PC market has grown this past gen because that's where the image enthusiasts have gone. Getting into a tflop pissing match on the console side is dumb for the market leader.

A less eccentric design also allows Sony to have full backwards compatibility without any magic on the software side as Shpeshal Ed mentioned.

Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.

The 400$ makes sense, but we need to take it consideration what jason said as well.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I don't know in what kinda of universe an hardware ahead in performance has a lower TF counts. And people here tries to talk even of 2TF of difference. With both AMD chips. Did really people read what tries to argue?

If the PS5 has like 1tf less but alot better bandwith coupled with a crazy fast SSD implementation then it could very well have better performance. I don't know why people think this entire performance discussion is as easy as looking at which has the slightly higher number of a single piece in a bigger puzzle.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
So is good that the new Devkits are cooling-conscious then, when the Pro weren't ;)

To me it shows that they are fully aware of the issues.

I'm glad that we moved from the "HMB2 is not possible, too expensive, doesn't make sense" scenario to the "How do we cool the PS5" one, though.

Which is the one we were having when 13TF was rumored, and people were talking about the new cooling patent etc.
Again, everything is coming nicely together...

The previous PS4/Pro dev kits didn't show anything in the design that they had a lot of cooling (because they didn't run that hot) but the PS5 'V' dev kit has more vents and scoops than an Evo 8......and is notably bigger.

This all before knowing whether this is a full fat (rumoured) 13TF or early ~10TF kit. Never mind thinking about the retail console design/cooling.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,163
Bottom line is if Sony is able to achieve a $400 console at 8TF with standard memory, they should do that. From a business standpoint, I can't see any excuse to miss a $400 price point if it's possible considering they have 100 million gamers they want to move asap.

That is not really true you what to look at it from a business stand point without looking at all the factors .
Sony does not want there system much weaker because they could lose out on some hardcore gamers .
Who is spend the most money and buy there system early while also having a brand effect that can go down to other users and friends.
Which is even more important now thanks to everything becoming cross play .
If Sony doing one console means there going want to hit as many different types as users as possible with that one console.
If they have to take a lost to do it that is what they will do .
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
This is the part I struggle with as well. I can't see any good reason to leave that $399 sweet spot that worked so well for the PS4 and Pro. I see many reasons not to leave it.

I've always been on the $399 camp. But if all journos and insiders have one idea in common is that both are very close, both in power, and (presumably), in price.

So that's why I settled for a $499 launch, with vlear path for a price drop faster than usual, thanks to using SSD and HBM RAM, that (allegedly) could go down is price to allow that.

Just a (probably erroneous) theory


The previous PS4/Pro dev kits didn't show anything in the design that they had a lot of cooling (because they didn't run that hot) but the PS5 'V' dev kit has more vents and scoops than an Evo 8......and is notably bigger.

This all before knowing whether this is a full fat (rumoured) 13TF or early ~10TF kit. Never mind thinking about the retail console design/cooling.

I mean but that is the point, right? They're actively thinking about the retail console design/cooling.

That's why I say that's the most interesting piece of information left to know about the PS5 for me is the final design, and hopefully it doesn't leak before the reveal
 
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Oct 25, 2017
17,916
If the PS5 has like 1tf less but alot better bandwith coupled with a crazy fast SSD implementation then it could very well have better performance. I don't know why people think this entire performance discussion is as easy as looking at which has the slightly higher number of a single piece in a bigger puzzle.
And Jason hinted at that too. The non-TF parts are what will matter more because the TF comparison is basically a wash. They are too close in that regard for it to matter.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
If the PS5 has like 1tf less but alot better bandwith coupled with a crazy fast SSD implementation then it could very well have better performance. I don't know why people think this entire performance discussion is as easy as looking at which has the slightly higher number of a single piece in a bigger puzzle.
So you are talking of "magical" customisation and secret sauce. I think it's more probable ps5 has higher TF and others raw performance number. Though nothing of mind blowing. If the X series was really ahead in something we have heard claims as "look people, the X as higher raw number but ps5 is more efficient". The fact they persist about the ps5 ahead, it means it still has 'higher' specs.
 

nikasun :D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,168
I am wondering is Sony's 3D audio includes "dummy head/Kunstkopf" recordings as well or at least the same effect for headphones.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
That is not really true you what to look at it from a business stand point without looking at all the factors .
Sony does not want there system much weaker because they could lose out on some hardcore gamers .
Who is spend the most money and buy there system early while also having a brand effect that can go down to other users and friends.
Which is even more important now thanks to everything becoming cross play .
If Sony doing one console means there going want to hit as many different types as users as possible with that one console.
If they have to take a lost to do it that is what they will do .
I'm a hardcore gamer and when I look to consoles I look to exclusives. So if ps5 is 8,9,10 tflops doesn't matter for me. I want play their exclusives.

And 9 to 10. 9 to 11. No one will notice the diff. It will be 10-20%.

Ps2 was much weaker than Xbox and sold much better. The jump will be so big that for regular consumers 5 fps more or a setting on high instead of medium will not make any diff.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
He said nothing has change and that was after we found out the 12TF number for MS .
He has said it more than once also .

Yes and he kept referring to the PS5 having a slight edge in performance but again this might not have to point to a higher flop count perse. Which after having just checked made no specific statements about other than both consoles having higher than 10tf.

Jason, Matt, Klee - "Both consoles will be very powerful and very much so on par with one another"

A few on Era - "A $399 PS5 at 8TF seems more likely"

🤔

Yeah i don't see why this would be a good idea from a business standpoint. Let's just have our next gen console be at minimal specs just so we can reach a $400 pricepoint because we want our ps4 base to switch asap.

The next gen consoles both need to do their best to be exciting and powerful because people aren't going to choose a significantly less powerful console simply because it's slightly cheaper and has BC.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
I've always been on the $399 camp. But if all journos and insiders have one idea in common is that both are very close, both in power, and (presumably), in price.

So that's why I settled for a $499 launch, with vlear path for a price drop faster than usual, thanks to using SSD and HBM RAM, that (allegedly) could go down is price to allow that.
Yeah good point. Definitely some interesting arguments to be made on both sides!
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Jason, Matt, Klee - "Both consoles will be very powerful and very much so on par with one another"

A few on Era - "A $399 PS5 at 8TF seems more likely"

🤔
Compared to current gen a 8-9 tflops with a modern cpu will be really powerfull . 9 tflops rdna is double than Xbox one x. Cpu will be at least 4x more powerfull. Ssd... Gddr6... Yeah man 5-6 times more powerfull than a ps4.

Problem is people here expectations when they say really powerfull and then desilusional think of high end gpus perf.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
The 400$ makes sense, but we need to take it consideration what jason said as well.

Yeah we do. I'm no insider. I haven't researched the rumors or details of these specs as well as most of you. I'm strictly looking at this zoomed out from a business standpoint. Hell Sony may have considered everything I said but the people who get paid exponentially more than me decided different.

Sony has the console enthusiasts locked up due to their exclusives and a much bigger digital install base. It's all about converting those casuals asap before they get distracted by 5G streaming in a few years.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,163
I'm a hardcore gamer and when I look to consoles I look to exclusives. So if ps5 is 8,9,10 tflops doesn't matter for me. I want play their exclusives.

And 9 to 10. 9 to 11. No one will notice the diff. It will be 10-20%.

Ps2 was much weaker than Xbox and sold much better. The jump will be so big that for regular consumers 5 fps more or a setting on high instead of medium will not make any diff.

PS2 sold better because it came out much earlier and had loads of exclusives software .
That is no longer the case now.
Sony does not want you only buying just there exclusives but 3rd party games on there system.
So the get money from DLC , MTX ,PS+ etc etc .
Most people don't buy more than one consoles and have a PC .
So they have to make there system as attractive as possible.
 
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