likely their biggest game, but cyberpunk, which was also delayed, is arguably the biggest game of gen.
PS5 and Xbox Series speculation |OT11| Cry Havoc and Let Slip the Dogs of War [NEW NEWS, NEW THREAD - CHECK OUT THE STAFF POST]
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Anyone could have predicted in January that Cyberpunk would be delayed. No one gets a cookie for predicting it.
Saying that something is amiss because Sony is "off their PS4 schedule" is presupposing a truth: that Sony meant to follow their PS4 reveal schedule in the first place. I don't think is true. It ignores the huge differences between this year's PS4 lineup and 2013's PS3 lineup.
PS5 (and/or XSX) might well get delayed, but not because they failed to reveal it in February or because the competition has them spooked or whatever.
Also lol @ "how could a smaller company match those specs"
Saying that something is amiss because Sony is "off their PS4 schedule" is presupposing a truth: that Sony meant to follow their PS4 reveal schedule in the first place. I don't think is true. It ignores the huge differences between this year's PS4 lineup and 2013's PS3 lineup.
PS5 (and/or XSX) might well get delayed, but not because they failed to reveal it in February or because the competition has them spooked or whatever.
Also lol @ "how could a smaller company match those specs"
Leveraging SSD for extra CPU power is nonsense, when the CPU does computation at peak efficiency the data doesn't even leave the CPU die, it stays within registers and caches. When the data doesn't fit in the cache (or the organization of your data reduces temporal and spatial locality), CPU performance tanks significantly. Now that you know DRAM is slow, SSD is even a few magnitudes slower.
The inverse, however, is true. At load time, faster I/O can keep the CPU fed, hence maximizing the overall efficiency.
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That two of the largest games of the PS4's entire generation were intended to ship in late February and early March, making late February a bizarre choice of time to put the marketing focus on the PS5, for starters.
Exactly.
I own both console now and will get both nextgen but lets step back and look where we are at.
We have seen final form factor of XSX. Weve seen the final chip design. We have final complete comprehensive specs of XSX. Phil and now a few other MS employees have a XSX at home that they play on.
These are good signs of a product seemingly on track for a Q4 release.
Now lets look a PS5. Cernys been interviewed by Wired twice where hes given some general info....
Yes they are sharing alot of the same providers for parts. But do think the provider says "OK Sony you want to release in Q4, OK MS you want to release in Q4 too OK we will start manufactuirng for both of you guys at same time and same quantities"? Someone is further ahead.
What if there is no PS5 event in March? Sony gave invites 2 to 3 weeks before PS4 reveal. In 2 weeks March is now out of the question. PS4 wiped the floor with XB1 at launch. The battle was over right at the start. Yet this time Sony is switching up the gameplan pre launch, with NO Feb or even March reveal? Why?
Why stray from that winning formula?
I could very well be wrong. I hope I am. But something aint right and Ill stick with my prediction.
All busineases make bets, from the green grocer to the biggest plane makers. Last gen, Microsoft made a bet that there might not be another solution that allowed them to hit 8GB RAM, and that Kinect's success on the the 360 meant that it would he a head turner on the new console as standard.
Those were the wrong bets. Sony gambled on GDDR5 and hit the jackpot when densities doubled. This also allowed them to get more out of a smaller die.
Oh gotcha, I hadn't seen that 7nm+ offered such a density increase. You are right that they don't really seem to need such a large due if it is indeed on the 7nm+ architecture. So it is likely RDNA2 on 7nm? Interesting......
It wasn't the Bloomberg article, but more putting together three things: (1) the idea that PS5 was at one point predicted to launch late 2019/ early 2020, (2) the idea that it take a very long time to design and launch a custom APU, (3) the 8TF and 9.1TF PS5 rumors, and (4) the speculation that PS5 was running fewer CU at very high clocks using an exotic cooling solution.
I can't begin to speculate as to what might have caused the delay, but if pressed I would guess it involved some custom aspect of the PS5 Sony was developing in-house.
The context of the conversation was hardware. Good try though.
MS has announced more =/= MS is "further along"
Sony has announced less =/= Sony is "behind"
Companies do not announce things as soon as they are able to. They announce things when it makes strategic sense. A company not announcing something is not evidence that they must be unable to announce that thing.
This should really go without saying, but… *gestures widely to entire thread*
Microsoft is talking now because it makes strategic sense for them to talk now. They don't have any AAA titles until the XSX hits in Q4. Of course they're more willing to talk about Q4 now than a company with multiple major releases coming in mere weeks.
For the life of me, I can't understand why the knee-jerk doomsaying is so common in this thread. What Sony is doing now is exactly what they would be doing if PS5 development was going swimmingly. There are literally no indications that the project is "in crisis" or whatever.
Sony has announced less =/= Sony is "behind"
Companies do not announce things as soon as they are able to. They announce things when it makes strategic sense. A company not announcing something is not evidence that they must be unable to announce that thing.
This should really go without saying, but… *gestures widely to entire thread*
Microsoft is talking now because it makes strategic sense for them to talk now. They don't have any AAA titles until the XSX hits in Q4. Of course they're more willing to talk about Q4 now than a company with multiple major releases coming in mere weeks.
For the life of me, I can't understand why the knee-jerk doomsaying is so common in this thread. What Sony is doing now is exactly what they would be doing if PS5 development was going swimmingly. There are literally no indications that the project is "in crisis" or whatever.
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This is a very reasonable comment and a good point. Silence could well just be... lack of anything else planned.
Did you forget Fortnite?
PS4 Pro hard coded the CPU speed stepping of the original PS4, and then disabled half the CUs to emulate the exact amount of PS4 CUs. The GitHub leak was only found and related to PS5 because it had the exact CPU frequencies of the PS4 and PS4 Pro, so it does look like they are taking the hardware approach again.
Microsoft has been using a very stripped down version of a hyper-v hypervisor for their specialized emulator. This allows them to run on different kinds of hardware and to adjust resources for the games in the hypervisor.
Hypervisor's are a Microsoft strength, as the corporate world pretty much uses only VMWare or Hyper-v for Windows servers these days.
I do hope that Sony eventually moves to a software layer form of emulation, rather than a hardware bound solution because it's only going to get harder and harder to keep up backwards compatibility as each iteration of hardware comes out
that is more telling of toolset, and how both ps4 and xb1 might both be x86, but xbox is much closer to a pc in its scalabity and foword compatibility.
Wouldn't 8k super sampled theoretically look better than 4K native? If there's all kinds of extra power unused, wouldn't it be beneficial to up the resolution?
Why would you need to update the physics of every object each frame, there's tons of object that wouldn't need to be updated each frame but could allow for vastly more destructible and persistent environments. It would be outside our traditional thinking of how to use it in game design because we've never anything close to that standard for game design.
Whether its closer to a PC or not isn't really the point. It's more that Microsoft has better engineers for software based compatibility.
LOL you think just because an object is still you can avoid updating it? First of all, each time you render an object it needs to go through a series of transformation, regardless of whether it's still or moving. Second, physics is just an example, there are a lot of game states that are invisible to the gamer, for example, AI logic, animation of foliage. Some of them even ticks at a higher rate than the frame rate.
This might be an impossible question to answer (and as somebody who isn't super techy I wouldn't know), but if we look at the PS5 from the perspective of what we concretely know and with the idea of Sony pushing some form of raytracing as a feature of the PS5, is the rumored 9 TF a number that both makes sense within the BOM costs we've seen as well as technically feasible to do raytracing on a level that isn't complete BS?
I guess what I'm asking is based on the specs and BOM is 9 TF a reasonable number or is 10-11 a more likely number?
I know there's a lot of factors, but I don't know enough to understand whether 9 seems right or if it's obviously too low.
I guess what I'm asking is based on the specs and BOM is 9 TF a reasonable number or is 10-11 a more likely number?
I know there's a lot of factors, but I don't know enough to understand whether 9 seems right or if it's obviously too low.
in this context the tfp number has little to do with raytracing, its more dependent on how much silicon each of them gave up on their respective chips for rt hardware, though extra power can help all else equal.
GTA 5 is the biggest Singleplayer and Multiplayer buy to play Game of this Generation and it isn't even a real PS4/Xbox One game.
Cyberpunk will surely do decent numbers just like many other games this generation.
lol I'm even more over my head in a thread like this than I thought 😂
right, but some of those things like you just said would tick at lower rates for example I would assume foliage animations would tick at lower rates we simply don't have enough information on their custom SSD solution to see where it lies in Latency terms, however what we do know is that as an example PS5 Spider-Man load times were under a second meaning the data was requested, located, retrieved, decompressed, and rendered in under a second. That's incredibly impressive.
We also saw the fly through demo of Spider-Man which further suggests data retrieval and latency is very low in real world applications.
My turn is today. I think all people choosing something before May/June will have a new avatar. I think probably all people with a date before end of E3.
Yeah, this line is a little ridiculous. Sony ain't some mom and pop shop....
ReRAM! Dual GPU! HBM3! Passively cooled consoles!
Bring on a new form of insanity!!! :D
A second is REALLY, really, really long in the realm of computing, we usually measure things in nanoseconds, microsecond, when it comes to milliseconds it's already quite slow. Loading Spider-Man under a second has nothing to do with latency, since it's a few big sequential reads, not a few millions small randomized reads.
Also saying we don't know where their SSD solution will lie in the latency terms is not true, we do. We know as a fact that it won't surpass DRAM in terms of latency. The difference in physical forms of DRAM and NAND flash dictates that.
Is this the twilight zone? I swear it's 2011/2012 all over again.
that would fit with 'GitHub isn't the full picture' - GitHub could still be accurate for the basic GPU but isn't factoring RT?
lol
Welp, I'm going to bed now. When I wake up I expect I'll be presented with my shiny new tag and what will probably be a Wired article with PS5 info. Can't wait!!!!
Theoretically 8k super sampling would make for sharper images, but I do wonder why they would choose to use extra bandwidth that way. Super sampling is usually a huge hit to FPS, and depending on how much overhead RT requires that might be preferred
this is an interesting point. Even if a separate RT solution was thought to be faster - or maybe wasn't close enough to be available when Sony were first designing things - surely a separate RT block on the GPU would take up more die space than having RT inside each CU so each CU is a little fatter?
even if Sony is 36-40CU, the overall chip could still be a lot bigger (maybe even close to xsx) because of the added RT hardware)?
Yep, I'm sure we can dream up more!
I guess I meant the warring has died down a little (but not completely ☹️)
I know :)
Just wanted to bring back the glory days of wildly speculating about the PS5 specs when practically anything was on the table. Technically it still is.
I still want a screen in my DualShock 5 Sony! Oh, and NFC and wireless charging!
Your avatar is bad ass. Or ass bad? Idk
You know in the spirit of optimism there's even more on the table after MS had a strong showing. A few years ago anyone suggesting those specs would've been laughed out of the room. This forum can be a little much sometimes the way it chews on things, but its nonetheless exciting times.
SSD will not replace RAM, they will help work with less RAM because in RAM there is much more than the data for a few frames.
And other things the SSD in Xbox is very good, 3.75 GB/s, my only concern is coming of how they will exploit it for streaming data knowing the MS first party games are multiplatform (PC, current gen and next gen console) and later one or two years after next generation consoles release(PC and next generation condoles.).
After SSD will not help with a 30% in TFlops handicap for Sony if it is the case. An hypothetical 9.2 Tflops PS5 would not be as handicapped than the weaker console between PS4 and XB1 or between PS4 Pro and Xbox One X because the consoles had a deficit in TFlops and memory bandwidth but the difference will be there, less than people think but it will exist. And TFlops are important for raytracing because ray intersection is good but you need to use shading power to evaluate the material and calculate the bounce of light raytracing needs more shader power than rasterization.
After the interesting things will probably be in the details out of the flops more than the people think.
And other things the SSD in Xbox is very good, 3.75 GB/s, my only concern is coming of how they will exploit it for streaming data knowing the MS first party games are multiplatform (PC, current gen and next gen console) and later one or two years after next generation consoles release(PC and next generation condoles.).
After SSD will not help with a 30% in TFlops handicap for Sony if it is the case. An hypothetical 9.2 Tflops PS5 would not be as handicapped than the weaker console between PS4 and XB1 or between PS4 Pro and Xbox One X because the consoles had a deficit in TFlops and memory bandwidth but the difference will be there, less than people think but it will exist. And TFlops are important for raytracing because ray intersection is good but you need to use shading power to evaluate the material and calculate the bounce of light raytracing needs more shader power than rasterization.
After the interesting things will probably be in the details out of the flops more than the people think.
I think that, based on how MS and Sony have (or have not) been positioning themselves, the XSX will be the stronger system. But I also think there's no way the weaker console is priced the same as the more powerful one. If the Xbox is $500, the PS5 will be $400.
I would take a 9.2 TF PS5 and hold it close to my bosom. I'd stroke and caress it, run my fingers through its exhaust grills and stick my finger up its power socket. I'd then turn down the lights and make sweet love to it down by the fire.
You don't want to see what depravity I'd do to a 12 TF PS5 ;)
You don't want to see what depravity I'd do to a 12 TF PS5 ;)
not with the cost to make it being 450. sony would be eating almost 200 a unit, thats approaching ps3 tetory, there is no way they do that.
wow what a great avatarWell, it's a bit crazy out there right now. Lots of platform zombies waging war, so let's just all have a nice cold pint and wait for this all to blow over, eh?
But, since we'll undoubtedly go stir crazy in here, what do you say we have a few sacrifices to pass the time?
Chippy13, Jayembi, jroc74, KOHIPEET, Otakukidd, Patent, RandomViolence, Rumpestump, TheUnseenTheUnheard, Wace, SuperBoss, MrHedin, Graefellsom, Aswitch. All of you please stand up. For the crimes of failing to predict the PlayStation 5 reveal date, I hereby assign you the following avatars.
Chippy13, this'll help you clear out those clogs!
Jayembi, everybody should have some toy slugs!
jroc74, you gotta be careful on those stairs, man
KOHIPEET, remember the eight second "Draw Something" fad? Well, I do!
Otakukidd, may this drawing of Nicholas Cage haunt your dreams as it has mine
Patent, Furious D knows how to bring in a crowd
RandomViolence, driving is hard. Don't let this happen to you
Rumpestump, have a snack!
TheUnseenTheUnheard, bust out the CD-I for this action packed title!
Wace, sometimes it's hard to draw a donkey
SuperBoss, gotta complete that PS2 collection with this gem
MrHedin, Remember Windows ME? Remember it? Well, you do now! And so will everyone else
Graefellsom, you gotta clean your pool, man!
Aswitch, I vaguely remember this cartoon coming on at like 4AM on Nick. So here we are.
Well, that's it for today, folks! The platform zombies are still going at it, so let's just take this time to get to know each other. Let's see what my friends think about your new looks
Idk, I don't know how true/not true this is. But I think Sony is waiting to see the exact price of the XSX to undercut it.
But honestly at this point, with how confident MS has been announcing the specs of their system, they have to know what's up and are 100% confident in their system. Like, I remember last gen. Sony announced first and all MS had to say was catch up shit with Major Nelson saying stuff like "announcing a system without showing the box?". This time around we just got done with MS doubling down on the 12TF RDNA2 number. It would, in my opinion, be a colossal fuckup to go November to now announcing and doubling down on that number just to have Sony come out with something stronger.
Sony isn't dumb though, they'll undercut on price. Maybe they rework PSNow to be a Gamepass like deal starting the generation to cover lost profit🤷♂️
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