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PS5 and Xbox Series speculation |OT11| Cry Havoc and Let Slip the Dogs of War [NEW NEWS, NEW THREAD - CHECK OUT THE STAFF POST]
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If the masks are compatible between the nodes it is highly likely you can just jump to the better node without much effort. The thing is I do not know if that is the case.
Locuza Do you know that?
This is how I honestly see all this...
On one hand, we have insiders saying what they are saying. And everything every insider is saying suggests that both machines are close. Some say PS5 is stronger others say its the XSX. The operative word here being "close".
On the other hand, we have these leaks. And whether we choose to admit it or not, those leaks are all without context. Which literally makes them open to interpretation. I am not doubting Eras detective/technical chops...but this has to be the greatest display of tunnel vision I have ever seen. I mean folks could end up being right, but it would just be outta pure luck, and not because there is anything conclusive on what shaped their theories.
Long story short, we can speculate and theorize all we want, but we don't know shit.
Everything I read states 7nm and 7nm euv have incompatible masks.
Well, I doubt any other company will make a BC mode for PS4 and PS4 Pro other than Sony.
I'll take anything over the past few days Optimus Prime GIF-fest and zero next-gen talk and speculation :)
So thats off the table ....
"The N7+ node is TSMC's first process technology to adopt EUV lithography. It is unrelated to N7 nor N7P and is not IP-compatible with either, requiring re-implementation (new physical layout and validation)."
EDIT: if you're taking N7P then it's not a problem. I didn't see the post you were responding to.
Your right its unlikely for that to happen however this does not make it a fact, we can not change the definitions of words just because we wish to
From spanish forum
Developers already have the latest dev-kits. Talking about raw-power, consoles are like PS3 vs 360 (really close) and there is no gap like PS4-ONE.
GPU is more powerful on Series X (only a little bit)
CPU is same PS5 and Series X
Other stuff is better on PS5 (I think he is talking about the SSD...)
The controller is really cool but almost same as PS4
The source is working on a big AAA, there was rumors about that AAA but it was claimed to be fake (but it's not, it's real. Idk what game can be)
The guy can not show any proof so....one rumor more.
Developers already have the latest dev-kits. Talking about raw-power, consoles are like PS3 vs 360 (really close) and there is no gap like PS4-ONE.
GPU is more powerful on Series X (only a little bit)
CPU is same PS5 and Series X
Other stuff is better on PS5 (I think he is talking about the SSD...)
The controller is really cool but almost same as PS4
The source is working on a big AAA, there was rumors about that AAA but it was claimed to be fake (but it's not, it's real. Idk what game can be)
The guy can not show any proof so....one rumor more.
So thats off the table ....
Seems you have some confusion. As I said before, 7N and 7NP are design compatible. 7N and 7N+ are not design compatible.
I'll give you that, let's change it to 99.99% sure it's a face while the 0.01% is a case where Sony is allowing some other company to build an APU which runs PS4 and PS4 Pro games :)
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It's got one thing in common with every developer leak I've seen : that both consoles are close in performance. I'm gonna just go with that.
My point is something either is a fact or it is not,we have very few facts to go on around here, barring the highly unlikely situation you layed out and assuming this is a chip made for sony you would have to once again assume if you want to say its whats in the ps5
Could also be Sony piggybacking on the most similar chip available at the time to do some BC testing.
It was an intern right? Could also be busy work for them with an old version.
Not saying it's those things, but that's why the context we're lacking matters.
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I'm not sure who BG is? Red Tech Gaming just did a video today saying the Xbox was more powerful, so something changed there. The insiders here said all those things in August and September while Spencer said dev kits came out in end of November.
The other interesting note is that there are two design styles within the 7N/7NP family: a high density and a high efficiency design.
So the high efficiency design is larger in general. But who knows what the 5700 UC was based on....?
Edit: the larger design is listed as HP for high performance, not high efficiency as i wrote.
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I don't think you should trust any of the insiders from the old forum.
I think high efficiency makes more sense from a clock and performance standpoint.
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- 36 cu at 2.0 ghz would be a 150w+ gpu. add 40-50w for the cpu and their apu alone is 200w.
- if their goal was to hit 9.2 tflops, they would get there for less than 100w if they went with 1.35ghz and 54 CUs.
- so to save 50mm2 or $10-15, they decided to take a cool a 200w apu that cant even hit 10 tflops.
its hilarious to me that the team that was supposedly team realistic and team thermals for over a year is now putting all their chips in the oberon 2.0 ghz basket. i can actually see sony going with a 9.2 tflops 1.35ghz 54cu gpu. that to me at least makes some sense even if it doesnt line up with other rumors from within the industry. because even then it would be a 150w apu that would require some kind of crazy cooling solution considering the entire ps4 pro consumed 150w.
with n7p and other arch improvements that result in 20% power savings, i can see 2.0 ghz being somewhat viable at around 120w for the gpu alone. but the same should apply to the 54cu configuration which would be under 80w for the same amount of tflops.
i wouldnt be surprised if the oberon 2.0 ghz tests are for BC with some kind of native boost mode that runs all pro games at native 4k 60 fps while disabling the remaining CUs and using the power left from disabling those CUs into increasing the clocks on the 36CUs. sony was afraid to put boost mode out at launch, but the mere 111 mhz clockspeed boost didnt cause any issues on ps4 games with no pro support. now imagine what they can do with 1,200 mhz with the same amount of CUs.
Shouldn't it be 1st rule of old forum [club] based on correct semantics?
The most economical thing to do with a fixed die size is to clock the piss out of it. Given wafer costs, there's a logic to pursuing high clocks. They control the thermal and power delivery completely. They're not beholden to arbitrary chassis design, standard slot sizes, or ATX power standards.
One look at the dev kit design should tell you they pushing clocks.
🔥 👀
One of the comments on the forums asks if we have any new info floating around because it's impossible for them to keep up with us. Another person responds something like "no, they don't. They are just repeating themselves. They are going crazy" lol 😂
Another funny thing, they say that the game mentioned is probably Assassins Creed, because of Ubisoft Barcelona. I had no idea Ubisoft had a team there.
my point is that whatever savings they might get from a smaller die will be offset by the need to have a more elaborate cooling solution.
As much as the GitHub details seem conclusive, I can't help questioning the notion of a 36cu chip.
PS4 had 18, Pro doubled the CU count to 36. The X came out a year later with 40CUs and a clock increase.
But Sony's plan for PS5, 4 years after the Pro, 4 years after specs for the X were revealed, with all their BC patents, is a 36 Navi CUs clocked ridiculously high?
The only way it makes sense is if Sony and AMD absolutely couldn't develop any way to increase CUs while preserving Pro BC. I have to imagine they've been considering Pro BC since they started work on the Pro. So that's like 7 years? And couldn't crack it?
PS4 had 18, Pro doubled the CU count to 36. The X came out a year later with 40CUs and a clock increase.
But Sony's plan for PS5, 4 years after the Pro, 4 years after specs for the X were revealed, with all their BC patents, is a 36 Navi CUs clocked ridiculously high?
The only way it makes sense is if Sony and AMD absolutely couldn't develop any way to increase CUs while preserving Pro BC. I have to imagine they've been considering Pro BC since they started work on the Pro. So that's like 7 years? And couldn't crack it?
Basically, yeah. And I'm not saying it's not a possibility, not at all. But I find such lack of skills a little hard to believe coming from Cerny and his engineering team. Or maybe they had a ridiculously small budget for development of the PS5 and they did their best? Even harder to believe, but yeah, I guess it's possible. Maybe the PS5 is indeed somehow a $399 machine and a "niche product" for the hardcore, all at the same time? Yeah, maybe, it could be I suppose 🤷
Hi all, I am a new user that has been lurking on here for a long time.
I have been watching you all twisting about and trying to figure out how all of these specs makes sense.
I am speculating here. I am not an insider, but I would like to take a crack to solve the puzzle.
I believe that everyone is correct on specs. How is this possible? Well... This is how it can be all possible at once...
Question: Why the different specs?
Answer: There are development kit specs and there are final retail specs. The development kits that are 12 TF are because it uses an older chipset (VEGA?) before NAVI came out and these are the development kits that are currently available to third parties. The 12 TF are actually GCN TF, not NAVI TF.
So you have 12 TF GCN which is equal to that of 9 TF NAVI. So, the insiders are getting third party development kit information from other people telling them that it's close to Xbox, which in raw numbers it's true, but the real truth is that those are GCN flops not NAVI flops, so the final retail console will be around 8-9 NAVI TF.
Sony's first party is always going to have the latest development kits by the way, later this year they will all (first and third party) have the final development kit available to everyone.
Sony is doing this to keep their "real specs" private for security reasons.
So, people are right, you still might get the same information from GDC. :-)
This all makes sense for both the insiders as well as the GitHub leaks. So, Klee and the rest of the insiders are not lying, they are telling the truth, but they just don't have all the details to bring to the table to see the entire big picture. The GitHub leak is true and the original consumer target was 9 TF, we will see if they hit their target or not.
Question: Okay, that explains that very well, but what about the part about ray-tracing?
Answer: The PS5 will have hardware ray-tracing no doubt. Software ray-tracing is done via the CPU using software. Mark Cerny said it was hardware but we don't see it in the github leaks. Well, that's because it's a built in feature of the GPU and not a separate feature.
Sony is going to "probably" be using AMD"s own brand of ray-tracing and it's built inside of the hardware of the GPU and there will be drivers that are written for this to use this hardware.
Microsoft has been doing ray-tracing research via Microsoft Azure when they were doing that cloud research for the Xbox One. This was mentioned in a tweet from Phil Spenser in 2015, so they have years and years of experience before they started writing DXR and they also worked with Nvidia to get their solution out so that Microsoft could start getting developers building on ray-tracing games for the next Xbox.
My speculation says that Microsoft will have dedicated ray-tracing cores in hardware that are of course dedicated towards real-time ray-tracing.
So, if I am correct, both will offer hardware ray-tracing but Microsoft will go one step further and offer dedicated ray-tracing hardware cores that are not part of the GPU hardware itself but dedicated for those kinds of tasks like that of Nvidia.
If you want to play games on the PC, I would recommend Nvidia's new Ampere chips coming out this year, it should have some of the newer tech for ray-tracing (2nd generation tech) that will probably be in the next generation Xbox (again, I am all speculating here).
Anyway, I really won't be posting all that much unless I have something to really say. As I said, all speculation of course, but something to think about at least huh?
Thank you for allowing my opinions here in this community. :-)
Ignore the APU and the remaining BOM is higher than last gen. So when you have a set budget you have to put your skill points into the slots wisely. Next gen is more about balance than min maxing.
Welcome. To address your theories:
1. Yes, the GCN to NAVI conversion theory has already been discussed and factored in. A fair one to say, had insiders not already said that the conversion does not apply on this case and that the 12TF is indeed 12TF NAVI. This also applies towards the XSX.
2. Could be a possibility. Then again, Cerny's own words were that the PS5 does have RT hardware acceleration. This leads me to believe that Sony is possibly working with AMD on their own solution. Will it be as robust as MS and their VRS solution? Time will tell.
My internet soul 100 acre wood friend! Also sorry it's so late of a response
Even using the github leak, we know this is not the end of the story. We are gone from Oberon B0 to E0 stepping in a few months. The github leak was the truth June 2019. Doubting it was the case is stupid. Some of the truthful insider may have reason at one moment in the time maybe at the end it will be different because a lot of secrecy around the PS5 and XSX. The most recent is Jason Schreier told they are close the 4th December 2019 but it was before the Game Awards presentation. And he said too, in Kotaku podcast he heard the two consoles are more powerful than the lowest end model of 2080. What is inside the github is inferior to a 2080 on Sony side.
It was in this episode.
This discussion is unuseful and I considered it console warring because saying the same things for the 100 times have no value imo. Currently I don't participate as much as before in the next-generation topic because there is nothing new. It is just wait and see reveals of the consoles.
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If 10x Teraflop leaps over 7 years are basically done, how can Sony/MS release a Pro version of these consoles in like 2024?
"This one is... twice as strong and is also $600..."
"This one is... twice as strong and is also $600..."
Costs the same or more as a wide and slow config, but has less performance. Sounds like a good plan.
As I've sad before, if Sony go narrow fast then they have colossally messed up.
As many as it needs to be to render The Lion King remake graphics in real time
Reconstruction is going to be vital to getting RT effects on these new consoles. Pixel quality > number of pixels, Alex is 100% right.
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