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Rewriting Ripley: How White Supremacy, Misogyny, and Hate Targeted the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy (The Last Jedi) and Won
- Thread starter SweetNicole
- Start date
I don't doubt all the right wing channels having a go at TLJ, but Star Wars fans have been a angry bunch (and im guilty of this) since the prequels & some would argue there was hate for ROTJ too with the ewoks, i think even Simon Pegg complained the teddy bear picnic ending was rubbish. There was gonna be hate for the sequels & honestly TLJ deserves most of it, too much Marvel inspiration with the constant quips, Luke's character change did not make sense, etc.
Yeah this is definitely true. I mean we had posters this week suggest it was good That someone asked on the investor call if Kathleen Kennedy could be replaced by Filoni. I'd say I'm surprised at how often alt right talk points get parroted here but I have seen how toxic gaming can get around changes in localization.
Uhm what? So you want people to only talk about stuff if they want to praise it, you don't want people to say anything negative, that would be a messed up world.
I really don't know why you're even responding to what I said tbh, I didn't really like TLJ but I have never written about my dislike of the movie on any forums.
I just don't see any reason why people who do not like the movie should have any less of a right to state their opinion as many times as people who loves it, as long as its legitimate criticism, like not liking how they treated the Finn character, or other stuff.
It happens a lot in fandoms where the "real" fans begin hating the one thing they spend all day thinking about. It's some real sunk cost psychology at play
That would have required a trilogy with a singular vision, which the sequels didn't have.
Finn choosing to become a Jedi, not to blindly serve an Order (been there, done that), but to free his brothers and sisters from the very people that stole them from their families and their homes when they were children would have been an incredible story arc for him. You could have totally drawn similarities between the Jedi Order of old and the First Order, in that both recruited followers in the same way and effectively brainwashed babies into unwavering loyalty, which would have been a great launch pad for Finn to refuse to allow a Jedi Order like that to rise to prominence again.
Then you'd have Rey, the one that believes in the idealised and romanticised version of the Jedi Order that she heard tales of growing up. With Ben, Luke and even Finn telling her that the Jedi Order she longed to be part of cannot, must not, come back, she'd be forced to evaluate not just her place in the galaxy but the place of the Jedi Order in it as well. In the end she would establish a New Jedi Order that has no masters or padawans, no ancient scriptures or traditions. Instead there would be equals, standing side by side and exploring the Force and their relationship with it together.
Urgh, what the sequel trilogy could have been makes what we got even worse.
/enters thread
sees comments about people explaining why they hated TLJ for the 1000000th time and why the hate was justified.
/leaves thread
(how come there is absolutely no self awareness with some of you people?... I guess because at the end the day this is still a videogaming forum and the overlap between entitled manbabies and videogamers is pretty large)
sees comments about people explaining why they hated TLJ for the 1000000th time and why the hate was justified.
/leaves thread
(how come there is absolutely no self awareness with some of you people?... I guess because at the end the day this is still a videogaming forum and the overlap between entitled manbabies and videogamers is pretty large)
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huh? what? where? way to throw a whole continent under the bus..
Egypt? Nigeria? Ghana? Botswana? where..? i'm genuinely interested. how and where did Steve Bannon's movement affect African countries exactly? i'd appreciate any further reading.
it's weird how often people do this, list countries that are affected by something, even some very specific thing, and then just throw Africa (and sometimes Asia) in there as if it's just one place or country..
Please quote me the person here who said the hate "was justified".
The treatment of the actors and crew was indefensible, regardless of it being a disappointment to many.
Yep. Happened with Captain Marvel too.
It was pretty obvious who was watching these dipshits' channels to form their "unique" perspectives on these movies
Star Wars is a mass market franchise. They want EVERYONE'S money. And Americans especially are split in half politically. So if Disney wants everyone's money then potentially half of their consumers are capable of seeing their products going against their values, or being outright racist, sexist, -phobic, and so on.
It's not a conspiracy. That's just what happens when you have A LOT of consumers. A lot of people are going to make a lot of noise when they see something they don't like.
EDIT: If Disney wanted to diversify their characters they would just do it. We wouldn't have to speculate characters' sexuality if it was in the open. If they truly want to reject the haters they would have to accept losses. But they won't.
It's not a conspiracy. That's just what happens when you have A LOT of consumers. A lot of people are going to make a lot of noise when they see something they don't like.
EDIT: If Disney wanted to diversify their characters they would just do it. We wouldn't have to speculate characters' sexuality if it was in the open. If they truly want to reject the haters they would have to accept losses. But they won't.
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Yes. You don't see me posting about Captain Marvel at every opportunity for a reason. My opinions on the quality of the film aren't so important as to feel the need to align myself, loudly and repeatedly, with assholes because my ego can't take people praising something I don't like.
Absolutely shameful and cowardly how Disney & JJ sidelined the Rose character after the backlash.
I didn't really like her character but that doesn't mean you just get rid of her after you spend a whole film establishing her as a new main character. Just write her better!
and yeah, i realize Lucas did this with Jar Jar but Jar Jar was truly just a trash character with zero potential for anything greater. Rose could have been saved.
I didn't really like her character but that doesn't mean you just get rid of her after you spend a whole film establishing her as a new main character. Just write her better!
and yeah, i realize Lucas did this with Jar Jar but Jar Jar was truly just a trash character with zero potential for anything greater. Rose could have been saved.
Yup. "The rampant abuse is a problem...but..." kills the discussion around this movie. It's funny too, because there's a post related to the trilogy on the forum once a day and you can always find a part of the convo that's just remixes alt right point. And not saying those posters have any hate in their heart, quite the opposite. It just shows how well a part of the internet knows how to weaponize geek culture. Its a win for the wrong fucking team, similar to gamergate.
This is nonsense. You're not "aligning" yourself with a hate group by simply expressing your dislike for a dumb sci-fi movie. Jesus fucking christ. Anyone so invested in defending TLJ to the point that they must immediately label someone with an opposing viewpoint as alt-right can safely be ignored.
Right, but it was on JJ for pulling a bait and switch and making him little more than comic relief. With how Finn's backstory is instantly thrown aside, how little he subsequently develops, and how his lightsaber use is completely overshadowed by Rey, by the end of the movie it was clear the trailer shot of him with the lightsaber was just a marketing stunt instead of foreshadowing. It wouldn't have happened even if JJ were in charge of the whole trilogy - he shut that door by keeping Finn separate from Rey and Luke at the end of TFA.
JJ made it extremely difficult for the sequel to make Finn's story compelling. You can't have Finn be a Jedi in the next movie if he just gets his ass kicked every time he uses a lightsaber and ends up separated from the only person who could teach him, you can't use his First Order background if he was completely normal after getting a name, and you can't give him a meaningful showdown with Phasma when he didn't have a relationship with her because he was made into a damn janitor instead of an actual stormtrooper (Phasma being a total jobber didn't help).
Johnson didn't do anything with the character, but he also had nothing to work with. TFA was such a horrible foundation for the trilogy from a story perspective, it took the majority of the sequel just to salvage Rey and Kylo.
It's a movie. People are allowed to discuss movies on the internet. This is such a ludicrous post that I can't believe anyone could type it with a straight face. So if alt-right shits enjoy some Marvel movie no one who likes it can publicly say that?
I'm kind of curious why Star Wars in particular is subject to this. I mean, I know EVERY major franchise has these awful, toxic fans and alt-right morons. I've seen the videos recommended to me on Youtube for everything from Harry Potter to Captain Marvel to Wonder Woman to James Bond.
But Star Wars is PARTICULARLY bad, and I'm legit shocked, fascinated, appalled, and saddened by this. For every weird anti-Brie Larson video, there's 20 for Rey. For every bad faith actor riling on Birds of Prey, there's 50x as many for Star Wars media.
Why is the Star Wars brand so susceptible to this, more so than any other franchise out there?
I have my theories and conjecture. For starters, the Star Wars brand in film is older than most of the others, thus it's a multi-generational movie series with a lot of crossover to older generations.
Unlike all the others, it also decided to reject the idea of multiple incarnations of their characters (Spider-man has a whole movie about how there are multiple versions of Spider-man, but Disney insists that there is only ONE version of Luke, Han, Leia, etc., and it's apparently the same versions across the board). That leaves no room for variance.
I'd also, sadly, argue that Star Wars has ALWAYS been one of the worst fanbases at large, long before the ST existed. Fan ire was once directed at Ewoks. Then at Jar-Jar and young Anakin. Then at the "Special Editions". Actors decades ago were harassed and bullied. The original creator has a whole documentary of "The People VERSUS George Lucas". Disney swoops in and starts their own new push for new movies, but the root of toxicity and hate was already fully seeded into the foundation of the franchise, and ANY wrong move would be overtly scrutinized.
Then the ST itself has problems. That's where I fully admit I don't love the ST like I really, really wanted to, but that none of that disappointment translated into HATE. But for those that have had such an abusive relationship with the series in the past, it was all the reason they needed to restart or begin a new cycle of abuse.
Then social media and Youtube algorithms took it from there. This negativity got them clicks - more so than other negative press for other movies or franchises. I almost never watch videos on Youtube about Star Wars ANYTHING, yet I have dozens of recommendations of anit-Star Wars drivel. Pulling up Youtube right now and, yep, there's some anti-Kathleen Kennedy video there for some reason, right between a "how to paint a Gundam kit" tutorial and "Stan Bush's The Touch".
I guess the bigger question is... how do you fix it?
I don't. You can search my history. There's probably less than half a dozen post about the new trilogy. Not everyone who didn't enjoy the movies went on to talk about it ad-nauseam.
My biggest statement to the quality of the movies is that I've not seen the last one because I lost faith in the new trilogy with the second one.
I see this thread for some people has just become "Yeah but what about my opinions?" like every other Star Wars thread on this forum. I'm surprised there aren't any "But I'm not Alt-Right, why are you calling me Alt-Right for not liking Star Wars!" posts.
Like holy fuck people either move on or actually discuss the issue in the OP.
Like holy fuck people either move on or actually discuss the issue in the OP.
It actively questioned Star Wars as being under the ownership of these old guard misogynist white nerds with its themes and characters. The film says that you should stop holding onto this thing you hold close to your chest with all your rigid rules and invite other people into it. It questions the validity of the hot-shot male pilot trope. Now you can argue all day and night about if it did those things well, but I think it's undeniable that it asks people to question their relationship with Star Wars as they imagine it to be.
This idea that these mostly white and male old fans are losing ground is why you see bigger pushback to diversity in gaming and 'nerd culture' franchises, things that have been traditionally male. Versus like the zero waves made when like it was announced there was a Charmed reboot and the three stars would be latina.
Tran seems to have bounced back well enough. Going to see Raya in a viewing with friends tonight. I hope she rises above all this.
Put pressure on big tech to suppress the haters, mainly. Deplatforming works and takes the oxygen out of the room.
If this wasn't about you, cool. I was talking about people who can't shut the fuck up about them.
Well, you're attacking them right now.
The aggressive defense is a part of the strategy to spread the hate. They need something to reply to.
I think this is the thing that makes me so, SO disappointed in RoS. I mean, yeah, it's bad all on its own, but so much of it is bad because it's clear Disney caved in to the worst of the haters. They did the opposite of taking out the oxygen; they fed the fire.
I definitely didn't like Last Jedi at all. My own problems with the film have a lot to do with what they did to John Boyega's character (along with boring, unnecessary scenes, out of character stuff from Luke, etc). At the same time, the crazy weird hatred the film got for OTHER reasons were borderline psychotic.
I do think that since the Trump presidency, there have been A LOT MORE extreme and wild accusations thrown around at posters here whenever anything can be misconstrued into something misogyny or racist, even when it's totally uncalled for. In turns into a gang and hostile mentality very quickly.
I think, and hope, with now a Biden era, we can see those extreme gang-up on posters for any post that, for a lack of a better term "doesn't like thing, so that person is racist/sexist" posts calm down. Not that it would ever end ACTUAL racist/sexist posters however.
Star Wars has always been home to a large group of fans who are just upset about anything. Transition its massive fanbase to the divided & politically charged social media landscape, specifically of the last half decade, and you just have a recipe for disaster.
I hate how this has also extended to other parts of Star Wars as well. The finale of season 2 of Mandalorian is now tainted by how the chuds are upholding deepfake Luke sabering droids in a hallway as "how TLJ should have been" and the scene's inclusion as further validation. They're positioning different parts of Star Wars to be pitted against each other and it fucking sucks.
And they pick and choose which parts to pit against each other on a whim, too. The Angry Youtube Thumbnail Brigade hated Cara Dune when she first appears - a non-traditionally sexy female character? Must be some SJW shit! - but once the actress started posting right wing shit, she suddenly became their favorite martyr.
And they pick and choose which parts to pit against each other on a whim, too. The Angry Youtube Thumbnail Brigade hated Cara Dune when she first appears - a non-traditionally sexy female character? Must be some SJW shit! - but once the actress started posting right wing shit, she suddenly became their favorite martyr.
I feel like there has ALWAYS been a gender culture war surrounding Star Wars. I distinctly remember throughout my early years seeing male SW fans shunning female SW fans. Whether it was playing with action figures, playing the TCG, playing Galaxies, there were people I knew who simply didn't want to associate with girls/women. They wanted desperately for their fandom to remain a boys' space.
TLJ amplifying Rey while humbling or sidelining the rest of the cast (for better or worse) just did a number on these cretins. And their voices were the loudest. There were some legitimate criticisms, but a lot of the overwhelming noise came from this sexist place that's always been there.
TLJ amplifying Rey while humbling or sidelining the rest of the cast (for better or worse) just did a number on these cretins. And their voices were the loudest. There were some legitimate criticisms, but a lot of the overwhelming noise came from this sexist place that's always been there.
I read this shortly after it went live and a friend alerted me to it. Excellent article and well worth a read, I bookmarked it as soon as I was done so I can read the part 2 coming later this month. It's a well-researched and sourced piece from a professional data analyst detailing how social media opinion/pop culture 'criticism' has been weaponised as gateway to political radicalisation, so of course the thread is mostly... TLJ is bad discourse again. Round and round we go.
Yea I do not like TLJ, but not for the same reasons, but if I am to voice a negative opinion about TLJ, I get auto assumed to be alt right or something. Man I just hated the whole flow of the movie, the fleet plot, the battle logic, timeline etc. But everyone is jumping on each other when this movie comes up
The problem with SW is that for a whole bunch of people it became part of their core identity in one way or another, and now opinions can never just be, it's always deep and meaningful, nobody can just like / dislike something, it's always this big deal.
What was very telling was the last post about Tran's harassment this and people were like 'Yo, that's fucked up, someone should never be harassed...but i need to add I didn't like her character." (!!!)
And they aren't trolls or don't have a point about the movie; its just that's how tainted the discourse of fandom is where we can't talk about harassment and someone needs to have movie critique hottakes. That's how bad the alt right has coopted the fandom.
Like imagine im like 'Damn, that racism Meghan faced from the royals was fucked up, they even talked about her kid. But damn, Suits was a shitty show'
And they aren't trolls or don't have a point about the movie; its just that's how tainted the discourse of fandom is where we can't talk about harassment and someone needs to have movie critique hottakes. That's how bad the alt right has coopted the fandom.
Like imagine im like 'Damn, that racism Meghan faced from the royals was fucked up, they even talked about her kid. But damn, Suits was a shitty show'
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I have to disagree with the general reviews being positive even in the earliest forms a lot of users reviews were not happy with the film, that Rottentomato user review hit 48% rotten within the first couple of days of release.
Gonna have to take my time with this. Thanks for sharing.
TLJ was arguably my favorite movie in the entire franchise (absolutely top 3), so it will be interesting to see how this lines up with some of my suspicions about some of the online commentary and pearl-clutching in lots of places including right here.
TLJ was arguably my favorite movie in the entire franchise (absolutely top 3), so it will be interesting to see how this lines up with some of my suspicions about some of the online commentary and pearl-clutching in lots of places including right here.
Rise of Skywalker's shit-tastic production means it's hard to tell. Rose got sidelined hard but Daisy Ridley also didn't know her motivations through most of filming. Finn and Poe have pretty reduced roles too.
The "cave" in Rise of Skywalker is that they backed away from being deconstructive in broad strokes, but what happened to specific characters could be said to be lost in the noise of a rushed, messy production.
wasn't there a point where JJ/Kathleen or someone say they would be very pleased with the final movie if they had problems with the second? It felt like they hinted that they listened to the fan critiques, but maybe im getting the quote wrong
It should be noted that the film's production was so haphazard that there are literally contradictions in the making of documentary as the writers talk about plot points that don't exist in the movie because they filmed that part of the doc before those plot points were rewritten and reshot.
I have a feeling that the root of it is that people are so invested in billion dollar corporate products that they feel the need to control the narrative around said products. You can certainly see it in every thread around here with people going back and forth about it thread after thread and page after page. The alt right figured out that people's infatuation with with these corporate products was fertile ground to spread their hate. I wonder if they'll figure out how to weaponize other brand battle grounds like console fanboys and Apple love vs hate.
I certainly would have wanted nothing to do with that production.
been known. bunch of bullshit too. I feel like this forum in particular needs to reconcile how it played into this as well tbh. this was not something that we were simply witnessing happening elsewhere it was all over this forum and likely still is. big reason why TLJ threads are so infamous here. it's one thing to dislike a movie and, yaknow, be a rational human being about it but it's completely different story to spew bile over and over and over and over (and over) again because, like, holdo's hair color or whatever other bullshit. I remember there was pushback to the very notion that a large portion of the hatred came from these kind of places which was insane then and only looks worse in hindsight. weren't some of those alt-right videos and talking points shared on here? someone else would know better than me. also just remembering hasn't this forum had some terrible looks in regards to blatant sexism regarding kathleen kennedy?
Well, you're attacking them right now.
The aggressive defense is a part of the strategy to spread the hate. They need something to reply to.
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize they are contributing by supplying the people that dislike the movie with a never ending war to fight. Instead of it dying out and people moving on we going into year 4 at this point. It must seem like the gift that keeps giving to the alt right.
If you think your hate of TLJ is "legitimate" or whatever, could you like, uh, shut the fuck up about it for five minutes? Not everything revolves around your opinion of a movie and your big critiques aren't that interesting. The thread is about the absolutely real use of the ST to facilitate a massive rise in alt-right channels and twitters that are poisoning people's minds under the guise of pop culture "news" right now, all over youtube and elsewhere.
This shit has real consequences.
This shit has real consequences.
I'm not really a fan of this take because it shuts down discourse on a movie and popular franchise that gets regularly discussed. I have genuine criticisms about the way the sequel trilogy was handled. (namely, giving separate individual directors/writers narrative control over their respective films without any kind of overarching direction; TLJ happened to be the movie where that occurred and the story decisions RJ made led to that trilogy feeling like we were running in place narratives).
The reason I find your take so disagreeable is that I am as far left and socially conscious as anybody I know—to the point where my friends and family roll their eyes at me calling out what I perceive as socially problematic themes or content unsolicited. What I also like to do, though, is discuss films, film writing, franchise management, and things like that. The idea that by even expressing my opinion about TLJ and the sequel trilogy, I'm aligning myself with nazis, is absolutely bonkers. I acknowledge the necessity of calling out the shitty alt-right elements in the discourse, but I also don't want to let TLJ go down as a movie that serves as a moral purity test (if you liked it, you're good; if you disliked it, you're associated with the alt right, so keep your opinion to yourself). Like, this is my genuine, good-faith opinion; why should I be forced to let nazis take full public control of it? Does that make sense?
I also don't think this whole "go with god" attitude towards opinions (i.e. dislike the movie to your heart's content but keep it to yourself) is very fair in this day and age, especially when directed at a self-selecting audience of people who obviously take some pleasure in discussing their opinions w/r/t media and entertainment in a public forum. Like, any time these films come up, folks that dislike TLJ/its place in the sequels should just shut up?
Well, you're attacking them right now.
The aggressive defense is a part of the strategy to spread the hate. They need something to reply to.
Nah, that's bullshit. The alt-right has no problem manufacturing its own aggrievement. Remember how well "don't feed the trolls" worked with Gamer Gate? Not only did that attitude fail to even slow them down, but this very topic shows how they managed to spread into other arenas. But thanks for finding a way to turn this topic into a "both sides" issue.
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