Those starters looked legit as hell though, and the thread was filled with mostly people saying "don't know if real but nice designs regardless."
Super Smash Bros. Community Thread |OT| Waiting for Next Super Smash Bros. Discussion
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I saw that thread, go check my posts in that thread. I watched the NX leak for the most part but I didnt believe considering I backed away from Nintendo during that thread. But I dont think I needed to tell you all this since you knew all of this. :)
So one of the big bottlenecks for the 3DS/Wii U game was the 3DS's CPU. It caused a lot of cuts and changes - Olimar's Pikmin chain shrank, the transformation characters were separated, and the Ice Climbers were cut entirely, owing all to a system that couldn't handle them.
That isn't a problem with the Switch, which begs the question - what changes does that bring to the Switch entry?
Reverting Olimar is probably more trouble than it's worth, and the five separated transformation characters (Shiek, Zelda, Samus, Zero Suit Samus and Charizard) have built their own identities. I don't see them reverting.
Ice Climbers are almost certainly coming back.
I could see a new Pokemon Trainer showing up, as well. Instead of cutting Charizard to put him back in his ball, bring on a trainer with a different set of Pokemon - maybe Alola starters?
That isn't a problem with the Switch, which begs the question - what changes does that bring to the Switch entry?
Reverting Olimar is probably more trouble than it's worth, and the five separated transformation characters (Shiek, Zelda, Samus, Zero Suit Samus and Charizard) have built their own identities. I don't see them reverting.
Ice Climbers are almost certainly coming back.
I could see a new Pokemon Trainer showing up, as well. Instead of cutting Charizard to put him back in his ball, bring on a trainer with a different set of Pokemon - maybe Alola starters?
I don't think it's too much work to restore Olimar to six Pikmin. Frankly, the character has become rather unplayable for me with only three Pikmin, whereas I loved him in Brawl. It seems like a pretty straightforward and simple change to make, and it really doesn't require any huge changes to balance besides maaaaybe nerfing Pikmin damage just a tad to compensate. Currently it's just too much of a task to play him since you have to constantly be plucking Pikmin considering the low total you can have at once.
Transformation characters ought to and will remain separated.
I don't think we'll be seeing a new Pokemon Trainer character, unfortunately. I really lament this loss for the series because it was really damn cool. I'd be happy to see a new one, as much as I don't think it'll happen. I'd be more than content with Decidueye, Litten, and Brionne if that were to come to pass.
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I'm hoping that Alph gets separated into his own character like they intended to for Smash 4, and like they did with the other clone additions.
It would be a good opportunity for giving Olimar back his old move set.
Regarding this, I'm not so sure that Alph truly was intended to be a separate clone fighter as everyone has been lead to believe.
This Source Gaming article seems to be the source of this information, featuring a translated version of Sakurai's balance notes for Pikmin & Olimar. I'm not questioning the veracity of the translation, but rather the interpretation of the phrase they translated as "clone character" in the notes.
According to the article, the original phrase used is "モデル替え", which translates as "model swap" and has been used by Sakurai to describe clone fighters, with the term "カラーバリエーション", literally "color variation", being used to describe palette swaps, or what's generally called alternate costumes. "Model swap" makes sense as a description for the clone fighters of Melee and Smash for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U, since they are model swaps that use the same animations outside of taunts and victory screen poses. But this term is also applicable to literal model swaps that are treated as alternate costumes like the Cloud, Bayonetta, Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, etc., including Olimar and Alph.
We also know that the Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were also originally planned to be merely alternate costumes for Mario, Marth, and Pit, respectively, but they ended up becoming clone fighters later in development. But either way, the term "model swap" fits both situations, and I'm inclined to believe that Sakurai isn't talking about making Alph a separate clone fighter in those notes, but just a literal model swap as an alternate costume for Olimar, as was originally planned for the game's clone fighters. It wouldn't surprise me if the balance notes for Mario, Marth, and Pit also mention making Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit model swaps, and considering these notes come from earlier in development, it's most likely that clone fighters weren't planned at the time.
Unless I'm missing some kind of damning evidence, it doesn't seem possible to be 100% sure that Sakurai is talking about making Alph a clone fighter rather than just a literal model swap alternate costume, and honestly the latter makes more sense given the known origins of the clone fighters in the game, so I don't think it should be spoken of as if it's a fact that Alph was planned to be his own clone fighter.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that Alph's model swap is listed under the modeling team and filed as "decided", along with the addition of Rock Pikmin, and both of these actually happened in the game—Alph's model was added as an alternate to Olimar, and Rock Pikmin were indeed added to the game (their model is used for a Trophy, and that Trophy is even categorized under "Fighter" despite not actually being used in Pikmin & Olimar/Alph's move set). Rock Pikmin are also listed for the animation team, where it's been put "on hold" (and was clearly never resumed, unfortunately), whereas Alph isn't mentioned anywhere else. If Alph really was planned to be a clone fighter from these notes, you'd think that there'd be tasks listed under other teams as well, even for animation. While clones share most of the same animations their original fighter, they've always had unique taunts and victory screen poses, so these additional animations would have likely been wanted for Alph if he was to be a clone fighter as well.
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I'm hoping that Alph gets separated into his own character like they ought to have done for Smash 4, and like they did with the other clone additions.
Fixed it for you. Happy? :P
I wasn't trying to nitpick at your post, sorry if it came off that way. It's just been something that's been bothering me for awhile, and I quoted your post as an opportunity to talk about the subject, lol. I was hoping maybe Masked Man or PushDustIn would chime in either to add some more conclusive evidence that I may be missing, or agree that it might not be the best idea to assume that Alph was intended to be a clone fighter when it's not 100% clear and the notes could very well be speaking of a literal model swap as an alternate costume. I really appreciate what Source Gaming does and how they strive to stick to the facts, and that's why I care about bringing light to a situation like this where something may have been unintentionally misconstrued.
Hmmmm yeah I suppose it's not abundantly clear, but if the same terminology was used in his notes to refer to characters like Lucina, Pittoo, and Doc, then I think it's safe to say Alph was in the running for the same (I don't know if this is the case). Could have been the case that he was scrapped, but they kept working on Rock Pikmin for Olimar to have (ultimately scrapping that idea as well). I'd always ran with the clone assumption myself, but it could certainly be as Tyeforce has described.
In any case, I really think it's an idea worth visiting. The possibilities for little changes to the normal moves are certainly there, and then there are of course Rock Pikmin. They could be heavy like Purple Pikmin, but could have very high shield damage (they're used to shatter crystalline barriers in their own game) while having relatively lower effectiveness against a non-shielding enemy. I'd also be down for changing the Up Special of either Olimar or giving this to Alph, but I think one of the two ought to have a recovery move that has hitboxes (I'm thinking they could ride the Onion at high speed or something). The bottom line is that I just wanna see Rock Pikmin in there because they're my favorite type!
I would love to see Olimar get a Louie alt and for Alph to have Brittany and Charlie alts. Don't @ me about body size and proportion; they're all generally small/same-shaped enough for it to work even within their own games :<
On the subject of Pikmin in Smash, I'm wondering why the Olimar and Alph remain silent? The uncharacteristcally deep grunts of the Olimar/Louie duo lend them a great deal of charm, and the same goes for the voices of the Pikmin 3 trio. I don't suppose they need to be terribly vocal in Smash, but as someone who loves Pikmin a lot, it does stand out quite a bit when these characters are totally silent.
In any case, I really think it's an idea worth visiting. The possibilities for little changes to the normal moves are certainly there, and then there are of course Rock Pikmin. They could be heavy like Purple Pikmin, but could have very high shield damage (they're used to shatter crystalline barriers in their own game) while having relatively lower effectiveness against a non-shielding enemy. I'd also be down for changing the Up Special of either Olimar or giving this to Alph, but I think one of the two ought to have a recovery move that has hitboxes (I'm thinking they could ride the Onion at high speed or something). The bottom line is that I just wanna see Rock Pikmin in there because they're my favorite type!
I would love to see Olimar get a Louie alt and for Alph to have Brittany and Charlie alts. Don't @ me about body size and proportion; they're all generally small/same-shaped enough for it to work even within their own games :<
On the subject of Pikmin in Smash, I'm wondering why the Olimar and Alph remain silent? The uncharacteristcally deep grunts of the Olimar/Louie duo lend them a great deal of charm, and the same goes for the voices of the Pikmin 3 trio. I don't suppose they need to be terribly vocal in Smash, but as someone who loves Pikmin a lot, it does stand out quite a bit when these characters are totally silent.
Well, like I said, it could be the case that Sakurai refers to both (clones like Lucina, Dark Pit, etc. and alternate models like Olimar/Alph, Bowser Jr./Koopalings, etc.) as "model swaps" since the term fits both situations. I'm interested to know if Sakurai has ever referred to the alternate model costume/character changes as a specific term or not. I think he may have referred to Wario's alternate costume in the same way he refers to normal palette swaps back in Brawl (I'm not 100% sure, but I vaguely remember something like that on the DOJO!! at the time), but at the time that was a unique case and merely a costume change, not a character change, so I'd want to know what he refers to the alternate model costume/character changes in Smash for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U as.
But regardless of what Sakurai calls things outside of a development environment, the term "model swap" was very specifically addressed to the modeling team and no one else, so the task listed in the balance notes seems to be strictly talking about making Alph as an alternate model for Olimar. The exact use of said model doesn't seem to be stated beyond "model swap", which, again, is a bit ambiguous in this context, and there are no notes for other teams (animation, game design, programming, effects, etc.) to create any unique features that would make Alph a separate fighter. Given the fact that these notes come from earlier in development, along with the known origins of the clone fighters starting out as mere alternate models for their original fighters, the idea of this "model swap" Alph not being intended to be a separate clone fighter at the time and instead just an alternate model for the same fighter like the other clones started out as seems to be the most logical conclusion to me. At the very least, there appears to be inconclusive evidence either way, which is why I don't think Source Gaming should have stated that Alph was in fact planned as a clone fighter (again, unless there's something crucial I'm missing here).
Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing Alph made into his own fighter with some unique traits, but I also don't think it's really necessary. Much like how it's less Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings that make their fighter and more the Junior Clown Car itself, it's the Pikmin that make Olimar and Alph the fighter they are in Smash, not really the captains themselves. (Speaking of which, why is it that the fighter is only called "Pikmin & Olimar/Alph" in Japan with "Pikmin &" being dropped elsewhere? That always bugged me, especially since Rosalina & Luma keeps the "& Luma" outside of Japan.) It feels a bit different than the situation with Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit, as those characters make a bit more sense to be their own fighter with some unique properties. Since Olimar and Alph (along with the other captains) are pretty much identical in their abilities in the Pikmin games, I struggle to think of a way to make Alph play different from Olimar beyond just giving him different types of Pikmin. And sure, you could give him Rock Pikmin, but wouldn't the better solution just be to give both Olimar and Alph Rock Pikmin as was originally planned?
But yeah, I'm totally with you on wanting Rock Pikmin since I love them too and it only makes sense to include all Pikmin types. I've also dreamed of the idea of having Olimar, Louie, the Hocotate President, Alph, Brittany, and Charlie all included as alternate models for the Pikmin fighter, but unfortunately I doubt it would happen, lol. The whole thing with Olimar and Alph being silent in Smash has bothered me too, and I have no idea why that may be the case. Smash has done some other weird things when it comes to character voices though, so it doesn't particularly surprise me, but it sure is disappointing.
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Actually the Koopaling comparison is spot on, so I would be fine with them remaining the same character as long as we get Rock Pikmin in there, and the other characters as alt models would be a nice touch. Fortunately they all have nearly identical skeletons, so making those alts would just be a matter of taking the time to model each of them. Probably not the most likely, but it would be a nice touch (god I love Louie). And they don't have to go recording new voices; just rip them from the games pleeeeeeease I wanna hear *real deep voice* "OLmar" on the victory screen :V
Also, I wish they'd swap out the Hocotate Ship for the S.S. Drake in the FS when playing as Alph, just for fun. Like, don't change literally anything else about the move and the way it functions; just swap the models. While you're at it, throw in an Onion for the Pikmin to come along, too (no hitboxes, purely for aesthetics). It's a little strange that the Pikmin just get left behind and survive for a FS based on the concept of escaping the planet and the nocturnal monsters. At least let them on the ship. Won't anyone think of the Pikmin?!
Yeah, lol, I assume they didn't swap the Hocotate Ship for the S.S. Drake because the Drake is already present in the Garden of Hope stage, but it would have made more sense to swap the ships out for their Final Smash as a purely cosmetic change, I agree. On a similar note, the Koopalings turning into Shadow Mario is also a bit odd, but I guess it can work. I mean, they were already given their own Junior Clown Cars, and Shadow Mario is a product of the Magic Paintbrush, so it makes sense if they can all use the Magic Paintbrush, lol. It's just weird since the Koopalings never used it outside of Smash Bros., but whatever. =P And yes, poor Pikmin indeed! XD
There's no problem with the Koopalings turning into Shadow Mario or Alph flying the Hocotate but Dark Pit using the 3 Sacred Treasures is apparently a bridge too far.
When I saw his render I thought maybe there was a chance he'd be a bit more heavily altered and would use the Dark Pit Staff for some of his normals. Actually one of my greatest hopes is that he gets the Luigification treatment in the future and becomes rather distinct the same way that a lot of clones eventually do.
Honestly, I always thought that was just PR on Sakurai's part. Same thing with the whole "we took story mode out because we didn't want people leaking the cutscenes on Youtube" or whatever.
I just feel like what really happened is that they had to cut characters like Lucas and Wolf due to time constraints and they needed super quick and easy clone characters to take their place. They looked through some of the alt characters/costumes they had lying around and chose Dark Pit and Lucina considering Pit and Marth are both relatively simple characters in terms of design, and thus easy to clone (compared to Olimar, one of the more complex characters in Smash and one that had tons of trouble even running on the 3DS version). The alternate voice clips, announcer calls and what not were already done, so they were just given their own slot on the CSS and had some of their stats changed around, and presto.
Dark Pit and Lucina always felt so super rushed to me, even for clone standards. They don't even have their own unique idle animations, for crying out loud.
This just looks ridiculous. It feels like they were both thrown in the roster way, way farther in development than the clones in Melee were.
To be fair I'd say Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures is quite a bit weirder than what the Koopalings and Alph do for their Final Smashes. The Three Sacred Treasures are legendary objects of light, which is, like, the opposite of Dark Pit, considering he's, well, Dark Pit. With Alph and the Koopalings, it's a bit odd, but it doesn't really feel as wrong as it would for Dark Pit. And it's not like they put much effort into giving him his own Final Smash anyway, since it's literally just a reskin of Zelda's Light Arrow.
I don't mind that Dark Pit is such a straight clone of Pit, since it makes total sense, though I would've like it if he had a different pair of Orbitars as well (though I guess Dark Pit shares it with Pit because the Guardian Orbitars have a very specific function and any others would seem like a downgrade from Pit without their defensive properties).
I think for the next Smash an interesting idea would be reworking the old veterans to have movesets that more reflect their most recent games.
For example, Mario using Cappy as an attack, or maybe Link using one of his runes.
For example, Mario using Cappy as an attack, or maybe Link using one of his runes.
I don't have the original document on-hand, but I remember the phrasing being such that it was pretty clear Sakurai had originally conceived Alph as a clone fighter.
Let's be honest here: What would Cappy exactly add to Smash Bros.?
He clearly wouldn't be able to capture opponents because, you know, game balance is a thing, so what else could he really do in the context of Smash that would make him a worthwhile addition to Mario's moveset pool? Give him another jump? Yawn.
I'm all for getting rid of FLUDD as much as the next guy, but quite frankly I'd just rather restore Mario Tornado back to its original self rather than bringing Cappy or whatever in.
He clearly wouldn't be able to capture opponents because, you know, game balance is a thing, so what else could he really do in the context of Smash that would make him a worthwhile addition to Mario's moveset pool? Give him another jump? Yawn.
I'm all for getting rid of FLUDD as much as the next guy, but quite frankly I'd just rather restore Mario Tornado back to its original self rather than bringing Cappy or whatever in.
Yeeeeeah I feel the same way honestly. There are plenty of characters that could have some modern tweaks to their movesets, but I don't think Cappy jives with Smash outside of just being a projectile.
But I'm fine with FLUDD too. It gets a lot of use competitively as a tool for gimping recovery and spacing, plus it's a very nice callout to Sunshine. If there's any Mario change I'd be down to make, it would be the addition of various different jumps from the 3D games. Smash already has a "quick turn" recognition in place, so sidestep jumps (I forget what they're called) could be a thing. Triple jumps and crouching backflips would be possible too. Maybe this is a little convoluted and I am not totally sure it would overall vibe with Smash, but it could be a fun way to lend Mario a bit of new flavor. I suppose Luigi could get in on it, too. Just a kinda out-there change that could work within the Smash framework.
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I think the silliest bit of info on Dark Pit is that his taunts are exactly as many frames as Pit's.
Dark Pit's reasoning for having a different Final Smash is odd, but I'm not complaining when he's practically identical to Pit, anyway. I never got the complaints regarding Lucina's idle animation, either (at the very least, it looks fine from a distance...?).
Regardless, I agree both are the lamest clones Smash has to offer.
Regardless, I agree both are the lamest clones Smash has to offer.
one of the more questionable things about Smash 4 is how characters who didn't even need a new Final Smash got entirely new ones (Kirby, Luigi, ROB) while poor saps like Toon Link and Falco are still stuck with hand-me-downs
Cook Kirby was such a unique and fun Final Smash, and now Kirby just has basically the same trap-and-slash thing Link and Ike already had covered
Cook Kirby was such a unique and fun Final Smash, and now Kirby just has basically the same trap-and-slash thing Link and Ike already had covered
In your article you do say that the term used, "モデル替え", has been used by Sakurai to describe clone fighters before, and I'm not disputing that fact. But as モデル替え is literally "model change/swap" which also fits the description of, well, a simple model swap, along with other reasons I explained here, the logical conclusion I come to from reading your translated balance notes is that it seems inconclusive at best, with evidence from the notes suggesting the plan for Alph at this point being a mere alternate model as he is in the finished game rather than a separate clone fighter. But as I said, I could be missing something crucial that makes it clear, and I know you'd know the Japanese far better than I would. I'm just questioning the fact based on the information provided in the article. I've seen many, many instances of misinformation originating from unintentionally misinterpreted translations, and since this claim about Alph seemed odd to me given the full context of the balance notes and other known information about the game's development, it felt appropriate to question it, which I think is important. Of course I could be totally wrong here and you could be spot on! But it doesn't seem to be 100% clear solely from the information provided in your article, which everything is using as a source, so I just wanted to point that out; I mean no disrespect to you or Source Gaming (again, I bring this up because I care about what Source Gaming does). Anyway, thanks for replying!
I think some of that may of involved the limitations regarding the 3DS hardware. Pretty sure that's why Dedede's dance was changed to something more generic.
that one had to be changed somehow, since they removed his Waddle Dees entirely
That doesn't seem to be why Kirby's was changed, though, since Luigi's new FS is basically Kirby's old FS.
Because the 3DS couldn't handle the Waddle Dees.
https://sourcegaming.info/2017/06/23/internalnotes/
Dedede's Final Smash was the biggest missed opportunity ever; I mean, you have Masked Dedede right there and you go for, uh, a bomb in a hammer? Lame.
Although, much as I agree Luigi's new FS makes more sense, it's the bizarre randomness of the Negative Zone that makes me miss it.
I remember Cook Kirby being relatively easy to dodge, so maybe there's one possible reason. Perrsonally, I chalk it up to him being a character that's frequently gifted with showstopping techniques all the time, so it also makes sense they'd change it to reflect the new games.
Although, much as I agree Luigi's new FS makes more sense, it's the bizarre randomness of the Negative Zone that makes me miss it.
I remember Cook Kirby being relatively easy to dodge, so maybe there's one possible reason. Perrsonally, I chalk it up to him being a character that's frequently gifted with showstopping techniques all the time, so it also makes sense they'd change it to reflect the new games.
If we're talking Final Smashes can we all agree that Rosalina's one is the worst. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a KO from that move.
Luigi's final smash was so weird but it's just so out there that it becomes memorable (and in Brawl minus it becomes ZA WARAUDO).
Luigi's final smash was so weird but it's just so out there that it becomes memorable (and in Brawl minus it becomes ZA WARAUDO).
I feel like custom moves can be salvaged, but need to be reworked like crazy. Specifically, I'd like the following changes:
- Separate them completely from equipment. Why these two were ever paired I don't understand.
- Change the method of unlocking entirely. Make it so beating Classic Mode with a character will unlock their first set of customs, All Star second set. Ideally they'd just all be unlocked from the start, but I think this is a fair compromise.
- Instead of making presets, custom specials should be selectable on the character select screen. Surely some talented UI designer can figure out how to make this happen.
I genuinely had no idea they changed ROBs final smash until I read the posts above, what a twist!
Hey, ROB ain't dull. It's cute :V
IIRC they still didn't fix its eyes as of the last update tho
IIRC they still didn't fix its eyes as of the last update tho
please, there's a special section in heaven just for us
rob lovers get a section full of bicycle seats in hell
See y'all in hell then
A friend of mine in college used to absolutely terrorize me with ROB in Smash 4. One thing really like about the moveset is how the D-air and B-air alter your aerial movement with the blasts. I can't quite remember other characters doing stuff like that except Ivysaur in Brawl (which was also very cool).
I just looked to see if that thread survived the merger, and it did!
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/62023262
It still makes me chuckle, Professor Beef making enemies of everyone, from random dudes on gamefaqs to diminutive wrasslin "legend" Taz.
I can confirm the phrasing was the same. It's pretty clear in the notes we translated on SG that Alph was considered to be separated as a clone fighter (Sakurai was going to investigate it. Though I guess we all know how that ended up).
Smash rumors got me excited so I've been playing some of the Wii U recently. Playing with friends is as fun as ever but going over some of the singleplayer content puts into sharp contrast how unsatisfying they are compared to the quality of the base package.
-the chaos of 8 Player Smash is fun with friends, but it just gets annoying when you're playing against the CPU. The emphasis on 5-8 player matches in the new Classic mode made it a lot more frustrating than it needs to be.
-There are simply too many characters at this point for All Star mode to work the same as it always has. A serious rebalance is in order.
-Trophy Rush is aggravating, full stop. I'd rather just a slot machine like Melee than having to deal with this.
-Smash Tour.
One of the things I'm most interested in seeing - if the Smash rumors pan out - is how they're going to treat their singleplayer content. Obviously a lot of people want an ambitious cinematic story mode but just rearranging and rebalancing the existing modes and maybe adding some less ambitious single player content can do a lot towards adding to the appeal of the product.
-the chaos of 8 Player Smash is fun with friends, but it just gets annoying when you're playing against the CPU. The emphasis on 5-8 player matches in the new Classic mode made it a lot more frustrating than it needs to be.
-There are simply too many characters at this point for All Star mode to work the same as it always has. A serious rebalance is in order.
-Trophy Rush is aggravating, full stop. I'd rather just a slot machine like Melee than having to deal with this.
-Smash Tour.
One of the things I'm most interested in seeing - if the Smash rumors pan out - is how they're going to treat their singleplayer content. Obviously a lot of people want an ambitious cinematic story mode but just rearranging and rebalancing the existing modes and maybe adding some less ambitious single player content can do a lot towards adding to the appeal of the product.