Trump on Trial - Episode 3 |OT| The One with the Bigliest Assets Ever (UP: $454m + interest + bans)

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

Valkyr said:
They can call anyone as a witness. It doesn't mean they flipped

Im aware.. but Ivanka asked to remove herself from the case, and they granted it.
They likely did not do that out of the kindness of their hearts.

Weisselberg has absolutely flipped. He took a reduced sentence in exchange for his testimony. If he doesnt provide the goods, that deal gets yanked.

Jr is purely my speculation. He's a weasel and will do ANYTHING to save his own ass.

HStallion · Sep 28, 2023

I'm really curious how this case effects Trumps fund raising for his campaign. Obviously there are PACs and big money donors assisting him but I imagine the banking and business aspect to it all will be majorly fucked for him.

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

HStallion said:
I'm really curious how this case effects Trumps fund raising for his campaign. Obviously there are PACs and big money donors assisting him but I imagine the banking and business aspect to it all will be majorly fucked for him.

I'm curious how long before all the banks he's working with decide to call in their debts.

Do they do it quickly, or wait until the appeal fails. Regardless, it's going to happen.

Cargo Shorts · Sep 28, 2023

Tackleberry said:
Im aware.. but Ivanka asked to remove herself from the case, and they granted it.
They likely did not do that out of the kindness of their hearts.

No, they wanted to charge her but the New York appeals court dismissed the charges. She has no reason to flip.

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

Cargo Shorts said:
No, they wanted to charge her but the New York appeals court dismissed the charges. She has no reason to flip.

You're correct. Re-reading it.. due to statute of limitations.

Dunno.. gut feeling is she testifies and steamrolls her family. I have a feeling she wants as much distance between herself and her father as possible.
Guess we will see. No matter what, it's going to be interesting.

NosgothNihilist · Sep 28, 2023

Tackleberry said:
Im aware.. but Ivanka asked to remove herself from the case, and they granted it.
They likely did not do that out of the kindness of their hearts.

Weisselberg has absolutely flipped. He took a reduced sentence in exchange for his testimony. If he doesnt provide the goods, that deal gets yanked.

Jr is purely my speculation. He's a weasel and will do ANYTHING to save his own ass.

They are listed as fact witness so they are there to corroborate witness statements. I'm curious about JR too. I saw statements from Eric. I would not be surprised if he is left holding the bag.

Deleted member 171 · Sep 28, 2023

I don't think Ivanka flips, because it'd be tough for her to implicate her father and brothers and not her husband. Also, she's still a real bad person.

Volimar · Sep 28, 2023

On the other hand, throwing unsuspecting people under the bus is a family tradition. If she doesn't flip, is she even a Trump?

Cargo Shorts · Sep 28, 2023

NosgothNihilist said:
They are listed as fact witness so they are there to corroborate witness statements. I'm curious about JR too. I saw statements from Eric. I would not be surprised if he is left holding the bag.

Out of all the horrible things Trump has said, pushing your own kid under the bus has to rank up there.

During the deposition, Mr Trump was asked if he is "currently the person with ultimate decision-making authority for the Trump Organization", to which he replied, "no".

When he was questioned on who does have such an authority, the ex-Potus responded: "My son Eric is much more involved with it than I am. I've been doing other things – and I guess you could say on something major, final decisions, whatever.

"But I've been much less involved in it than… over the last five years – five or six years – than ever before."

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

Volimar said:
On the other hand, throwing unsuspecting people under the bus is a family tradition. If she doesn't flip, is she even a Trump?

If you were to write this into a soap opera, it would get rejected because it's too unbelievable.

But yet, here we are living with that group of assholes.

julian · Sep 28, 2023

Not for one moment do I believe any of the kids flipped.

BFIB · Sep 28, 2023

Wasn't there stories shortly after the election where Ivanka essentially disappeared from Donalds orbit?

Them eventually turning on each other wouldn't be surprising, and Ivanka doing it first is even less so.

Hope they're all bankrupt by the end.

phisheep · Sep 28, 2023

BFIB said:
Wasn't there stories shortly after the election where Ivanka essentially disappeared from Donalds orbit?

Them eventually turning on each other wouldn't be surprising, and Ivanka doing it first is even less so.

Hope they're all bankrupt by the end.

I think there were such stories, yes.

Plus, very early in this case, Ivanka got herself independent counsel (independent, that is, from the rest of the Trump usual suspects), so she's probably better advised as to what she needs to do to benefit herself.

FrostweaveBandage · Sep 28, 2023

phisheep said:
I think there were such stories, yes.

Plus, very early in this case, Ivanka got herself independent counsel (independent, that is, from the rest of the Trump usual suspects), so she's probably better advised as to what she needs to do to benefit herself.

Ivanka also testified for the J6 committee. I'm not sure any of the other Trumplets did.

Sobriquet · Sep 28, 2023

FrostweaveBandage said:
Ivanka also testified for the J6 committee. I'm not sure any of the other Trumplets did.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if J6 created a rift between her and her dad

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

Game on for Monday...

View: https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1707474211998953792?t=L-sA_idrMfq6ZlU4ETVDzA&s=19

DarthWoo · Sep 28, 2023

phisheep said:
I think there were such stories, yes.

Plus, very early in this case, Ivanka got herself independent counsel (independent, that is, from the rest of the Trump usual suspects), so she's probably better advised as to what she needs to do to benefit herself.

She's got Jared's money anyway, and with that little gift from the Saudis, he is probably richer than her dad, right? No reason to maintain any loyalty, unlike her brothers who haven't really made anything of substance for themselves.

Sobriquet · Sep 28, 2023

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

I don't know if I've ever seen someone lose in court SO much. It's incredible.

TGR Sean · Sep 28, 2023

Tackleberry said:
I don't know if I've ever seen someone lose in court SO much. It's incredible.

Don't forget the 99 out of 100 lost court cases during the election, heh.

phisheep · Sep 28, 2023

It'll be nice to have an actual trial rather than all this hanging around waiting on stupid motions.

Tackleberry · Sep 28, 2023

phisheep said:
It'll be nice to have an actual trial rather than all this hanging around waiting on stupid motions.

We are definitely gonna learn some things.
The amount of fraud revealed HAS to be absolutely staggering for the summary judgement to dissolve their businesses. That "corporate death penalty" is definitely a nuclear option.

I dug into this a bit more, and if the business was registered in NY, even if it's in Chicago or overseas... it's going away and they can't move it.
I believe the phrase is "turbo-fucked"

rjinaz · Sep 28, 2023

Tackleberry said:
I don't know if I've ever seen someone lose in court SO much. It's incredible.

Have you heard? Mark Levin's latest conspiracy is that Trump losing basically every single time actually PROVES he is innocent. I mean, I don't even know anymore how people's brains don't just melt from contradiction.

scottbeowulf · Sep 28, 2023

If anyone would like a refresher on Trump's lawyers, Legal Eagle dropped a tier list

View: https://youtu.be/Lhy5Y8xVHS0?si=yp7YuKbWO5r3aUlv

RetroMG · Sep 28, 2023

rjinaz said:
Have you heard? Mark Levin's latest conspiracy is that Trump losing basically every single time actually PROVES he is innocent. I mean, I don't even know anymore how people's brains don't just melt from contradiction.

I watched a little bit of this documentary about flat earthers a while back, and there was a part where they figured out a test using a sophisticated device (ring laser gyroscope) that cost $20k, which they thought would definitely prove the Earth is flat.
They turned it on, and it reported that the Earth is round.
To which they immediately said, "Well, we can't accept that conclusion, something must be interfering with the machine." (They went on to try a couple of other experiments to rule that out, and failed, because the Earth is obviously round.)
I think about that a lot while listening to Trump supporters talk. The evidence is obvious, but it's easier for them to assume ridiculous things to deny it. No, it is the children who are wrong.

rjinaz · Sep 28, 2023

RetroMG said:
I watched a little bit of this documentary about flat earthers a while back, and there was a part where they figured out a test using a sophisticated device (ring laser gyroscope) that cost $20k, which they thought would definitely prove the Earth is flat.
They turned it on, and it reported that the Earth is round.
To which they immediately said, "Well, we can't accept that conclusion, something must be interfering with the machine." (They went on to try a couple of other experiments to rule that out, and failed, because the Earth is obviously round.)
I think about that a lot while listening to Trump supporters talk. The evidence is obvious, but it's easier for them to assume ridiculous things to deny it. No, it is the children who are wrong.

yeah some people really have to believe that them, and only them, have figured out the truth and everybody else is just dumb for not getting it. Makes them feel bigger I guess.

MikeProtagonist · Sep 28, 2023

rjinaz said:
yeah some people really have to believe that them, and only them, have figured out the truth and everybody else is just dumb for not getting it. Makes them feel bigger I guess.

Also, the longer they believe something the harder it gets to change because there's so many more things you have to realize and admit you're wrong about.

rjinaz · Sep 28, 2023

MikeProtagonist said:
Also, the longer they believe something the harder it gets to change because there's so many more things you have to realize and admit you're wrong about.

good point. Qanon comes to mind. They let that crap go on for years despite being proven wrong at every turn. The few I know never really stopped believing, they just basically stopped talking about it at all, like they have erased it from their minds for now.

SilentPanda · Sep 29, 2023

Appeals court will not delay Donald Trump civil fraud trial

A New York appeals court on Thursday refused to delay Donald Trump's scheduled Oct. 2 civil fraud trial, after the former U.S. president accused the trial judge of wrongly refusing to throw out most of the case.

In a brief order, a five-judge panel of the Appellate Division, a mid-level appeals court in Manhattan, denied Trump's motion to postpone the trial.

It also lifted a Sept. 14 order by Justice David Friedman to put the trial on hold while it considered Trump's motion. Friedman was part of Thursday's panel

The panel ruled two days after state court Justice Arthur Engoron found that Trump and his family business persistently and fraudulently overvalued his assets and net worth in order to obtain better terms on loans and insurance.

The case is unrelated to the four criminal indictments that Trump faces, including for trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election

Appeals court will not delay Donald Trump civil fraud trial

A New York appeals court on Thursday refused to delay Donald Trump's scheduled Oct. 2 civil fraud trial.

www.reuters.com

MikeProtagonist · Sep 29, 2023

It says something that a news article has to point out for those not following along that this major case is not directly related to the four other major cases currently going on.

Maybe they should also adopt "the one with" naming conventions to make it easier to follow?

phisheep · Sep 29, 2023

This will likely be a difficult trial to follow. It'll be full of witnesses we've never heard of testifying about documents that we can't see, and without the benefit of it all being explained for the jury, because there isn't one. There will be lots of stuff about loan rates and liquidity ratios and insurance premium margins and suchlike.

It will follow the usual shape of prosecution case followed by defense case, but probably most of the entertaining highlights will come from Judge Engoron's increasing irascibility with defense lawyers towards the back end of the trial. Plus of course whichever of the Trumps take the stand.

There's an interesting scene-setting thread here on the case background (though I'm not certain it is wholly accurate).

One challenge for us will be to work out where the reliable reporting is coming from. So at least for the first week or so just post whatever you can find, and then we can try to trim it down to some live courtroom reporting and some informed daily summaries.

ivantod · Sep 29, 2023

rjinaz said:
Have you heard? Mark Levin's latest conspiracy is that Trump losing basically every single time actually PROVES he is innocent. I mean, I don't even know anymore how people's brains don't just melt from contradiction.

I want to post this image here again. This is from one of the original right-wing Twitter clones from back in the days after 2020 election:

So the answer is that their brains do melt and the above screenshot is a typical result.

rjinaz · Sep 29, 2023

ivantod said:
I want to post this image here again. This is from one of the original right-wing Twitter clones from back in the days after 2020 election:

So the answer is that their brains do melt and the above screenshot is a typical result.

Just reading that made me ill

Mandos · Sep 29, 2023

phisheep said:
This will likely be a difficult trial to follow. It'll be full of witnesses we've never heard of testifying about documents that we can't see, and without the benefit of it all being explained for the jury, because there isn't one. There will be lots of stuff about loan rates and liquidity ratios and insurance premium margins and suchlike.

It will follow the usual shape of prosecution case followed by defense case, but probably most of the entertaining highlights will come from Judge Engoron's increasing irascibility with defense lawyers towards the back end of the trial. Plus of course whichever of the Trumps take the stand.

There's an interesting scene-setting thread here on the case background (though I'm not certain it is wholly accurate).

One challenge for us will be to work out where the reliable reporting is coming from. So at least for the first week or so just post whatever you can find, and then we can try to trim it down to some live courtroom reporting and some informed daily summaries.

Considering how Trump's been pushing his lawyers for stuff that looks good in the court of public opinion… rather than actual court, and the lack of a jury, I expect him to make damning mistakes quick and screw this up as heavily as possible

scottbeowulf · Sep 29, 2023

phisheep said:
This will likely be a difficult trial to follow. It'll be full of witnesses we've never heard of testifying about documents that we can't see, and without the benefit of it all being explained for the jury, because there isn't one. There will be lots of stuff about loan rates and liquidity ratios and insurance premium margins and suchlike.

It will follow the usual shape of prosecution case followed by defense case, but probably most of the entertaining highlights will come from Judge Engoron's increasing irascibility with defense lawyers towards the back end of the trial. Plus of course whichever of the Trumps take the stand.

There's an interesting scene-setting thread here on the case background (though I'm not certain it is wholly accurate).

One challenge for us will be to work out where the reliable reporting is coming from. So at least for the first week or so just post whatever you can find, and then we can try to trim it down to some live courtroom reporting and some informed daily summaries.

Do Trump and his sons have to be in court for this one?

phisheep · Sep 29, 2023

scottbeowulf said:
Do Trump and his sons have to be in court for this one?

No, not unless they are called as witnesses.

Tackleberry · Sep 29, 2023

phisheep said:
No, not unless they are called as witnesses.

And with this being a civil trial, the judge ca reach a verdict at ANY point where there is a preponderance of evidence against Trump and Co.

this could last a couple days, or a the full duration.

FrostweaveBandage · Sep 29, 2023

ivantod said:
I want to post this image here again. This is from one of the original right-wing Twitter clones from back in the days after 2020 election:

So the answer is that their brains do melt and the above screenshot is a typical result.

These sorts of things always baffle me. What do despots gain from reducing population by 90%? It's like the logic center just goes away and is replaced by a mushroom.

julian · Sep 29, 2023

Tackleberry said:
And with this being a civil trial, the judge ca reach a verdict at ANY point where there is a preponderance of evidence against Trump and Co.

this could last a couple days, or a the full duration.

How does that work in trying to determine damages though? If you say they did it and are responsible, okay, but if you need more witnesses to determine the full scope of the fraud and amount owed the city, why would the judge end it early?

Tackleberry · Sep 29, 2023

julian said:
How does that work in trying to determine damages though? If you say they did it and are responsible, okay, but if you need more witnesses to determine the full scope of the fraud and amount owed the city, why would the judge end it early?

Damages may be a whole different ball of wax that goes a little above my knowledge.

julian · Sep 29, 2023

Tackleberry said:
Damages may be a whole different ball of wax that goes a little above my knowledge.

Oh I thought that's where we were at since the judge already ruled that he lied about his worth.

Tackleberry · Sep 29, 2023

julian said:
Oh I thought that's where we were at since the judge already ruled that he lied about his worth.

There's still some more parts that they have to go over.

"Though Judge Engoron ruled on some of the major elements of James' suit against Trump and his associates, there remain six other claims that will be argued at trial."

Jodez99 · Sep 29, 2023

FrostweaveBandage said:
These sorts of things always baffle me. What do despots gain from reducing population by 90%? It's like the logic center just goes away and is replaced by a mushroom.

I think it aligns with their conspiracies about covid. There was a lot of deaths so of course that was actually what the secret elite wanted as part of some master plan.

phisheep · Sep 29, 2023

julian said:
How does that work in trying to determine damages though? If you say they did it and are responsible, okay, but if you need more witnesses to determine the full scope of the fraud and amount owed the city, why would the judge end it early?

There are essentially two classes of witnesses in the remainder of this case, now that it has been established that the financial statements were false:
1) those that go to the criminal intent of the defendants (which wasn't required for count 1 but is for counts 2-7). It's a bit odd because the trial will be assessing criminal intent but against the civil standard of proof, but that's the nature of the beast here. These will be mostly the Trumps and their employees.
2) Those that go to the measure of unlawful profits to be disgorged, which will be mostly be bankers, insurers, valuers and experts.

Liability under (1) might be established early, but there is a lot of sludge to go through to establish (2) in detail.

julian · Sep 29, 2023

phisheep said:
There are essentially two classes of witnesses in the remainder of this case, now that it has been established that the financial statements were false:
1) those that go to the criminal intent of the defendants (which wasn't required for count 1 but is for counts 2-7). It's a bit odd because the trial will be assessing criminal intent but against the civil standard of proof, but that's the nature of the beast here. These will be mostly the Trumps and their employees.
2) Those that go to the measure of unlawful profits to be disgorged, which will be mostly be bankers, insurers, valuers and experts.

Liability under (1) might be established early, but there is a lot of sludge to go through to establish (2) in detail.

So basically (1) will end early (which is a shame because that will be the witnesses people care about), but (2) could take some time and most people will check out because it will be more technical. As long as he loses.

Mandos · Sep 29, 2023

phisheep said:
There are essentially two classes of witnesses in the remainder of this case, now that it has been established that the financial statements were false:
1) those that go to the criminal intent of the defendants (which wasn't required for count 1 but is for counts 2-7). It's a bit odd because the trial will be assessing criminal intent but against the civil standard of proof, but that's the nature of the beast here. These will be mostly the Trumps and their employees.
2) Those that go to the measure of unlawful profits to be disgorged, which will be mostly be bankers, insurers, valuers and experts.

Liability under (1) might be established early, but there is a lot of sludge to go through to establish (2) in detail.

Least it's just a judge. I'd imagine this would be a lot tougher with a jury

phisheep · Sep 29, 2023

julian said:
So basically (1) will end early (which is a shame because that will be the witnesses people care about), but (2) could take some time and most people will check out because it will be more technical. As long as he loses.

We can't necessarily draw that conclusion, as a lot of it will depend on how the State chooses to present its case. If anything I guess it'll be the other way round, as there won't be a decision on liability for counts 2-7 until defense witnesses are heard, while most of the measure-of-disgorgement stuff will be pretty well over with cross examination of the State's experts. It's a lot easier to rebut direct witness testimony than it is to rebut arithmetic, and the arithmetical stuff mostly depends on count 1 independently of individual liability for counts 2-7.

I think.

SilentPanda · Sep 30, 2023

Sheepinator said:
Why is the Judge saying this?

From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18M and $27.6M. Notwithstanding, the SFC's values do not reflect these land use restrictions. Trump's SFC's for 2011-2021 value ML at between $426.5M and $612.1M, an overvaluation of at least 2,300%, compared to the assessor's appraisal.

Surely MAL is worth a lot more than $27M, even if the Trump name had nothing to do with it? I don't know how the assessor is coming to that number, but does anyone really believe if MAL went on the market today, it would sell for just $27M?

That said, I appreciate the irony of Eric Trump frantically posting on Twitter images of other non-Trump much smaller Palm Beach properties on sale, to dispute the figure used in the judge's report... after they spent the entire trial claiming all of that stuff is subjective.

I see some arguments from the right claiming nobody was hurt by this stuff. Errr, only because of hindsight, as the filing notes. The filing also notes that while banks made money from the loans, they should have made more, because the loans were riskier than they knew, which would have resulted in higher interest rates for them.

Tax Rep Said Trump 'Agrees' Mar-a-Lago Is Worth $26.6 Million

but according to records obtained by The Messenger, a tax representative had informed officials from Palm Beach County in 2020 that Trump "agrees" his club should be valued at only $26.6 million.

"The Petitioner agrees with the determination of the property appraiser or tax collector," Michael Corbiciero, a real estate broker representing Mar-a-Lago said on a form to the local Value Adjustment Board. The lower valuation comes from Mar-a-Lago technically being a social club in an agreement Trump made in 1995 to receive tax benefits rather than a private residence.

Tax Rep Said Trump ‘Agrees’ Mar-a-Lago Is Worth $26.6 Million

The lower valuation comes from Mar-a-Lago technically being a social club that receives tax benefits rather than a private residence.

www.thedailybeast.com

phisheep · Sep 30, 2023

scottbeowulf said:
Do Trump and his sons have to be in court for this one?

Just revisiting this post, because there is a new twist.

Trump was due to sit for his long-delayed deposition in Trump v Cohen in Florida on 3rd Oct. He said he couldn't do it because he needed to be present for the first week of this trial in New York, so the deposition has been delayed - to 9th Oct I think.

So we may well see Trump in court next week. Or at least Cohen (or one of his lawyers) to see if Trump is there and if not to tee up a contempt filing in Florida.

Gosh this is all so exciting.

cameron · Oct 1, 2023

Trump expected to attend opening of his civil fraud trial in New York on Monday: Sources

Former President Donald Trump is expected to attend the opening of his civil fraud trial in New York on Monday.

abcnews.go.com

Former President Donald Trump is expected to attend the opening of his civil fraud trial in New York on Monday, multiple sources familiar with the decision told ABC News.

Opening statements are scheduled to begin Monday at 10 a.m. in the case brought last September by New York Attorney General Letitia James, who accused Trump, his eldest sons and his family business of inflating Trump's net worth by more than $2 billion by overvaluing his real estate portfolio.

The valuations caused lenders and insurers to give Trump better terms than he otherwise deserved, the attorney general said.

Last week, the presiding judge, Arthur Engoron, granted the state's motion for partial summary judgment, effectively deciding the core of the case, finding "conclusive evidence" Trump and the others "overvalued the assets reported in the statements of financial condition between 17.27-38.51%; this amounts to a discrepancy of between $812 million and $2.2 billion."

The bench trial will help Engoron decide how much monetary penalties Trump should pay. The state has asked for about $250 million.

Trump has no speaking role on Monday, but he is expected to return to the courthouse in lower Manhattan toward the end of the state's case when court records show he will be called as a witness.

https://twitter.com/nberlat/status/1708561912789610674

Trump on Trial - Episode 3 |OT| The One with the Bigliest Assets Ever (UP: $454m + interest + bans)

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Appeals court will not delay Donald Trump civil fraud trial

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Tax Rep Said Trump 'Agrees' Mar-a-Lago Is Worth $26.6 Million

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