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Oct 26, 2017
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That wasn't any old lawyer, either — that was the infamous Roy Cohn of the Rosenberg trial, the Army-McCarthy hearings, and Angels in America.

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...and the Genovese, and the Gambino, and the trumps, and...


"For starters, at the time Donald's mentor on issues of politics and business was Roy Cohn, a lawyer whose other clients included a passel of mobsters, among them the bosses of the Genovese and Gambino crime families. Cohn, who served as Senator Joseph McCarthy's chief witch hunter before going into private practice, operated out of a townhouse on East 68th Street where clients Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno and Paul "Big Paul" Castellano were regular visitors. Besides getting advice on their legal problems, as a former secretary later recalled to Wayne Barrett in his 1992 book, Donald: The Deals and the Downfall, the visits by the mob titans to their lawyer's office allowed them to talk shop without having to worry about FBI bugs. Cohn told a reporter that Donald called him "fifteen to twenty times a day, asking what's the status of this, what's the status of that," according to Barrett's book. "
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
I don't think Trump is even a favorite to win re-election at all and I'm fully on board with Elliot Morris' view that the strength of the economy has become detached from Presidential popularity because of how divisive Trump has become on a partisan level BUT that doesn't remove the danger that people hear radical change when they don't think they need it and instinctively retreat back into the comfortable bosom that is their current lives and in that case it benefits Trump.

Ill just say this though. Bernie has a much better chance at pulling it off than Warren does because he's an old elder statesman and that's non threatening and this country will by reflex look to him as an authority to respect because of it. I'm at the point where I think a Warren nomination is simply suicide.
I agree and disagree with this, but I've unfortunately also come around to the idea that Warren would fare the worst of the top 3 in a GE matchup against Trump.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Umm the problem is that's exactly how a lot of people in some very important states think. They're relatively content with the current state of things like their job and insurance and the state of the economy. They'd just prefer Trump's annoying bullshit to be out of their lives. The exception to this is young people but they don't vote enough. So these voters that we need on our side to win are turned off by someone thundering in with words about a radical revolution that could, in their minds, threaten to overturn what they already have. And for some that means sticking with Trump instead. It's a legit concern that Bernie people like to brush over because they don't have an answer to it.

Seriously this isn't a minor issue and I'm tired of Bernie supporters dancing around it with vague promises of the youth vote coming through or that he'll drag historic non voters to his side or some other magic bullet. The fact that you thought that tweet was automatically stupid instead of a window into the mindset of a shit ton of people says something.
I'm going to piggy back off this a bit.

I want to preface this by saying, this is not me being an asshole towards Bernie. I have said this before, and I will say it again. If I genuinely thought Bernie was the best (or even a good) shot at beating Trump, I would be marching in the streets banging a drum telling everyone to vote for him. My personal disdain for him aside, the only thing I care about is beating Trump. That's literally it. If our best chance was a cheese sandwich, I'd fucking max out to that thing tomorrow. If Bernie gets the nomination, he'll get a check for the maximum from my husband and I. I will vote for him without question.

But, let's be real here...Bernie has some real issues as a candidate. And folks just hand waving them away is a disservice to both his candidacy AND to our chances of actually beating Trump. Some of the weaknesses are things he can't do anything about (ie his health issues). Folks will just have to make a value judgement on that one way or the other. But, Bernie has never been vetted. He has had basically no attacks levied against him by anyone. Pete has been more heavily scrutinized than Bernie has, not to mention Warren and Biden. (Warren having a vagina means she gets 3x the critique from all sides.) Bernie has real weaknesses as a candidate, especially in the states we need to win.

Most everyone, even Bernie supporters, freely admit that with him on the ballot Florida is pretty much off the table. (A combination of anti-socialism sentiment among winnable Cuban voters, older voters, etc.) And while I do not believe we should rest all of our hopes on Florida, you cannot pretend that Florida exists solely in a vacuum, and that there are no demographic conclusions to be drawn. (you know what other state has an older population? Arizona.) Also, the old Florida joke, the further south you go the more north you end up holds true. The I-4 corridor is populated with transplants from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. And while one can argue the utility of state specific polling this far out, we have data points that Bernie runs worse than Biden in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. And I think folks need to be honest with themselves as to why that is.

For most folks, the economy is actually doing really well. They do their 9-5, they have enough in the bank and if they need a new job they can find one. They're mostly happy with their health insurance, and the idea of massive REVOLUTION is not appealing to them. Couple that with America's history of...let's say skepticism towards socialism, makes nominating a self described socialist worrying.

Folks LOVE to point out the idiocy and risk of nominating someone like Pete who struggles so much with the most important constituency in the Democratic electorate--black voters. Yet most Bernie supporters literally seem to give zero fucks that Bernie is basically DOA with anyone over 35, and literally dead with voters over 65. (In the Iowa poll in which Bernie is leading? He's running SIXTH among voters 55+. He's at 6%. He's running behind Klob!) This is a HUGE fucking problem. There aren't enough young people to offset older voters in the General Election. One, the youth don't vote, and two, even if they do, you cannot lose olds by massive margins (especially in places like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan) and expect to win. For example, in the national congressional ballot in 2018, those 65+ made up 26% of the electorate. We only lost them by 2 points. No one has articulated any possible solution to this demographic problem.Pretending it doesn't exist, that it isn't worrying, that it's nothing to be concerned with.....that's just not reality.

And, finally, no one has been able to articulate a single swing state in which Bernie is better poised than Biden to help us win.Everyone admits Florida is totally off the table with Biden as the nominee. I feel pretty safe to say you can say the same with North Carolina and Texas. Bernie runs behind Biden in polling of PA and WI. Arizona is literally full of old people.

If you like Bernie, that's fine. That's cool. I'm glad you have a candidate you like. (I don't get it, but I also don't get people who like Mariah, sushi or heterosexuality.) But every gosh dang critique of Bernie is not some media neo-liberal conspiracy. Once in a while, there are legitimate critiques that need better answers than just "Ok boomer."
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
I'm going to piggy back off this a bit.

I want to preface this by saying, this is not me being an asshole towards Bernie. I have said this before, and I will say it again. If I genuinely thought Bernie was the best (or even a good) shot at beating Trump, I would be marching in the streets banging a drum telling everyone to vote for him. My personal disdain for him aside, the only thing I care about is beating Trump. That's literally it. If our best chance was a cheese sandwich, I'd fucking max out to that thing tomorrow. If Bernie gets the nomination, he'll get a check for the maximum from my husband and I. I will vote for him without question.

But, let's be real here...Bernie has some real issues as a candidate. And folks just hand waving them away is a disservice to both his candidacy AND to our chances of actually beating Trump. Some of the weaknesses are things he can't do anything about (ie his health issues). Folks will just have to make a value judgement on that one way or the other. But, Bernie has never been vetted. He has had basically no attacks levied against him by anyone. Pete has been more heavily scrutinized than Bernie has, not to mention Warren and Biden. (Warren having a vagina means she gets 3x the critique from all sides.) Bernie has real weaknesses as a candidate, especially in the states we need to win.

Most everyone, even Bernie supporters, freely admit that with him on the ballot Florida is pretty much off the table. (A combination of anti-socialism sentiment among winnable Cuban voters, older voters, etc.) And while I do not believe we should rest all of our hopes on Florida, you cannot pretend that Florida exists solely in a vacuum, and that there are no demographic conclusions to be drawn. (you know what other state has an older population? Arizona.) Also, the old Florida joke, the further south you go the more north you end up holds true. The I-4 corridor is populated with transplants from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. And while one can argue the utility of state specific polling this far out, we have data points that Bernie runs worse than Biden in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. And I think folks need to be honest with themselves as to why that is.

For most folks, the economy is actually doing really well. They do their 9-5, they have enough in the bank and if they need a new job they can find one. They're mostly happy with their health insurance, and the idea of massive REVOLUTION is not appealing to them. Couple that with America's history of...let's say skepticism towards socialism, makes nominating a self described socialist worrying.

Folks LOVE to point out the idiocy and risk of nominating someone like Pete who struggles so much with the most important constituency in the Democratic electorate--black voters. Yet most Bernie supporters literally seem to give zero fucks that Bernie is basically DOA with anyone over 35, and literally dead with voters over 65. (In the Iowa poll in which Bernie is leading? He's running SIXTH among voters 55+. He's at 6%. He's running behind Klob!) This is a HUGE fucking problem. There aren't enough young people to offset older voters in the General Election. One, the youth don't vote, and two, even if they do, you cannot lose olds by massive margins (especially in places like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan) and expect to win. For example, in the national congressional ballot in 2018, those 65+ made up 26% of the electorate. We only lost them by 2 points. No one has articulated any possible solution to this demographic problem.Pretending it doesn't exist, that it isn't worrying, that it's nothing to be concerned with.....that's just not reality.

And, finally, no one has been able to articulate a single swing state in which Bernie is better poised than Biden to help us win.Everyone admits Florida is totally off the table with Biden as the nominee. I feel pretty safe to say you can say the same with North Carolina and Texas. Bernie runs behind Biden in polling of PA and WI. Arizona is literally full of old people.

If you like Bernie, that's fine. That's cool. I'm glad you have a candidate you like. (I don't get it, but I also don't get people who like Mariah, sushi or heterosexuality.) But every gosh dang critique of Bernie is not some media neo-liberal conspiracy. Once in a while, there are legitimate critiques that need better answers than just "Ok boomer."

Unfortunately I doubt anyone is going to even respond to this post because there are no answers they can give.

Also That weakness among older voters is going to be a huge liability during the primaries as well.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
The damage Roy Cohn has done to this country is going to be felt for the decades. Truly one of the most vile people to walk the Earth.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
That weakness among older voters is going to be a huge liability during the primaries as well.
Oh totally. Honestly, it's probably the biggest reason he can't break out of that 20% he's been at all cycle. There just aren't enough children to offset running 5th or 6th among the olds. It's also probably why his AA support isn't improving.

And, people love to point out how Biden runs among the youth as if that is a reason to not nominate him. But Bernie literally being DOA with anyone over 35 is supposed to mean.....nothing, apparently?
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
In what world are "most everyone, even Bernie supporters" are "freely admitting" that "he cannot win Florida". What vast swath of Bernie supporters are saying that.

Believe what you want but let's not make shit up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,513
And, finally, no one has been able to articulate a single swing state in which Bernie is better poised than Biden to help us win.Everyone admits Florida is totally off the table with Biden as the nominee. I feel pretty safe to say you can say the same with North Carolina and Texas. Bernie runs behind Biden in polling of PA and WI. Arizona is literally full of old people.

not to be a pedant, but just to clarify -- I assume you meant to say "[no Florida] with Bernie as the nominee"?
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
Oh totally. Honestly, it's probably the biggest reason he can't break out of that 20% he's been at all cycle. There just aren't enough children to offset running 5th or 6th among the olds. It's also probably why his AA support isn't improving.

And, people love to point out how Biden runs among the youth as if that is a reason to not nominate him. But Bernie literally being DOA with anyone over 35 is supposed to mean.....nothing, apparently?

Concern about what old people think, you know the driving force behind who largely votes in an election, has basically become something to be mocked for.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,921
Bernie has been vetted. He's been around for decades and was the object of intense hate of the entire party for the past 4 years. If there was stuff going around to end him, it would have been released before this campaign began. Sanders detractors appear to want to hang this around him as if it is the same as having actual skeletons clearly in the open. I don't want to rehash 2016 again.

Also, I don't expect Sanders to win Florida, but it's not needed to win and I think Florida is a dream and a wish for Biden.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
This is why Warren should be the gal.
bernies just got too much baggage.
but, it does seem likethings are lining up at the right time for him recently.
ill switch to his team of warren gets 0/4 pre Super Tuesday races.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
And the thing is that most young people who actually care to go out and vote will be flexible and vote for the Dem no matter who it is because they know the stakes involved. Will Bernie pick up some extras? Sure. But Biden would still get most of them. The olds however are stubborn assholes stuck in their ways and are far less flexible. When a lot of them say they don't like Bernie and won't vote for him they mean it because they don't give a fuck. Biden can afford to lose a bit of the youth vote because he stands to gain a lot more of the older vote in trade off. What Bernie gains in youth won't make up for what he loses in the older votes ESPECIALLY in dead end rust belt states where youth are actively leaving and the states are slowly getting older.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Oh totally. Honestly, it's probably the biggest reason he can't break out of that 20% he's been at all cycle. There just aren't enough children to offset running 5th or 6th among the olds. It's also probably why his AA support isn't improving.

And, people love to point out how Biden runs among the youth as if that is a reason to not nominate him. But Bernie literally being DOA with anyone over 35 is supposed to mean.....nothing, apparently?

He's breaking out of it right now. It turns out that things change as they evolve.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Ill just say this though. Bernie has a much better chance at pulling it off than Warren does because he's an old elder statesman and that's non threatening and this country will by reflex look to him as an authority to respect because of it. I'm at the point where I think a Warren nomination is simply suicide.

Bernie will be framed as a Communist, he still relies more on speaking "from the heart" then good optics like Biden which will open him up for gaffes, he's an 80 year old man who had a heart attack, anti semitism will be pushed all over the country against him and more. His elder statesmen angle won't hold with many Democrats, too, who see him as a crazy radical or plain incompetent. That's how he's fragile his "authority" is. It'll be a relentless tide of hate the likes he's never faced as a politician.

www.politico.com

Bernie's mystery Soviet tapes revealed

Unseen by the public for three decades, a POLITICO reporter views hours of footage from his 1988 'honeymoon' to the USSR.


His history of praising and having fun in Marxist-Leninist dictatorships is going to bite him hard.
 
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Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
The idea that "Bernie hasn't been vetted" is also just wishcasting that he wasn't the number two in the election

 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,921
Ban old people (except Bernie).
Biden has gotten a pass from the press for sounding "off" for a long damn time. And this is the electable stalwart people are pushing.

I understand Sanders had a heart attack, but no one is questioning his mental fitness at this time. Biden sounds like a different person. There are tons of people who haven't heard Biden speak since he was the Vice President.

I wish people would be honest that it isn't just electability or even mostly that metric. It's ideology. Biden represents keeping the party the way it is.
 

Kaitos

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Oct 25, 2017
14,835

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Bernie has been vetted. He's been around for decades and was the object of intense hate of the entire party for the past 4 years. If there was stuff going around to end him, it would have been released before this campaign began. Sanders detractors appear to want to hang this around him as if it is the same as having actual skeletons clearly in the open. I don't want to rehash 2016 again.

Also, I don't expect Sanders to win Florida, but it's not needed to win and I think Florida is a dream and a wish for Biden.

Not like this Bernie hasn't. He hasn't faced 1/10th the shit presidential nominees get. He's spent decades being obscure and safe in Vermont and Hillary holding back in '16.

Hillary didn't want to "end him" like the GOP will, and they were ready for that contingency had he won '16. Democrats hold back in primaries, except Bernie himself of course - he never understood that within primary elections.

It's wishful thinking. Sanders has gotten further in the process than Biden. Every time Biden has run in a Presidential Election he has flamed out.

He only did that because Hillary cleared the floor and he got his ass throughly kicked by her. He's in the exact same position as Biden is.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
If old people won't support Bernie if he's the nominee, then maybe it's the old people who are wrong.

On the plus side, without UHC they'll be gone sooner anyway. 🤔
 

KidAAlbum

Member
Nov 18, 2017
3,182
And the thing is that most young people who actually care to go out and vote will be flexible and vote for the Dem no matter who it is because they know the stakes involved. Will Bernie pick up some extras? Sure. But Biden would still get most of them.
I just disagree. You're essentially saying that Biden is just as good at turning out the youth as Bernie. Fair enough if you don't think a good amount will vote, but no way can you twist it into Biden being able to draw them out as much as Bernie.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
Not like this Bernie hasn't. He hasn't faced 1/10th the shit presidential nominees get. He's spent decades being obscure and safe in Vermont and Hillary holding back in '16.
I mean this is sort of silly — what do you think happened in 2016? We know about his honeymoon to Russia, his old writings (and the weird ones), all of his public access tapes, we have his personal notes from when he was mayor of Burlington, we know about Jane and her golden parachute... was that not "vetting".

You guys are expecting some sort of silver bullet of "vetting" that will become obvious to those who right now support Sanders that he is not electable, but that seems like wishcasting seeing as we know a lot about Bernie.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
If old people won't support Bernie if he's the nominee, then maybe it's the old people who are wrong.

On the plus side, without UHC they'll be gone sooner anyway. 🤔

Of course it's they who are wrong. Old people suck I'm not defending them! I'm saying what's reality and not what we wish was the case. And what's reality is while old people are mostly selfish jerks they drive the national agenda because they get out and vote like their lives fucking depend on it every single time. So it's important to placate their delicate sensibilities. Unless you expect for them to be all gone in the next 10 months?
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Bernie has been vetted. He's been around for decades and was the object of intense hate of the entire party for the past 4 years. If there was stuff going around to end him, it would have been released before this campaign began. Sanders detractors appear to want to hang this around him as if it is the same as having actual skeletons clearly in the open. I don't want to rehash 2016 again.

Also, I don't expect Sanders to win Florida, but it's not needed to win and I think Florida is a dream and a wish for Biden.

There are a lot of things about Bernie that have NOT been put to the general electorate. His rape fantasy shit, his lamenting that the porn industry suffers because we don't let kids be naked around each other, his cervical cancer shit....not to mention the stuff with nuclear waste, his wife's literal fraud, the nepotism, etc. While these stories exist, I doubt most of the democratic electorate is familiar with any of them. These all will be thrown hard at him by Trump. And a lot of these are pretty fucking gross and hard to just hand wave away. He's never been put on the spot to defend himself from this stuff.

People want to pretend that every gosh dang stupid thing Biden does proves he's just a walking time bomb, but we're just supposed to pretend that none of this shit actually matters to the general electorate? All I'm arguing for is consistency.

Use the 538 aggregate!

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

National : President: Democratic primary Polls

The latest political polls and polling averages from FiveThirtyEight.
Oh, I do. But because RCP is shitty and includes anything/everything, I wanted to give him the utmost potential to prove he was really breaking out of that 20%.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,921
Not like this Bernie hasn't. He hasn't faced 1/10th the shit presidential nominees get. He's spent decades being obscure and safe in Vermont and Hillary holding back in '16.

Hillary didn't want to "end him" like the GOP will, and they were ready for that contingency had he won '16. Democrats hold back in primaries, except Bernie himself of course - he never understood that within primary elections.



He only did that because Hillary cleared the floor and he got his ass throughly kicked by her. He's in the exact same position as Biden is.
lol. He held back.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I mean this is sort of silly — what do you think happened in 2016? We know about his honeymoon to Russia, his old writings (and the weird ones), all of his public access tapes, we have his personal notes from when he was mayor of Burlington, we know about Jane and her golden parachute... was that not "vetting".

You guys are expecting some sort of silver bullet of "vetting" that will become obvious to those who right now support Sanders that he is not electable, but that seems like wishcasting seeing as we know a lot about Bernie.

That wasn't given the heat presidential candidates get in the media. Most of nation don't know this about him because he never got out of the primaries and Hillary didn't nail him on that in the least.

Vetting as in getting roasted like Hillary has her entire life over bullshit is something Bernie never experienced.

Do you honestly think Bernie has more skeletons in the closet than Joe Biden?

lol. He held back.

Bernie has enough skeletons as is to hurt him badly among conservatives and moderates.

If that's him holding back I'd hate to see him getting mean.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
There are a lot of things about Bernie that have NOT been put to the general electorate. His rape fantasy shit, his lamenting that the porn industry suffers because we don't let kids be naked around each other, his cervical cancer shit....not to mention the stuff with nuclear waste, his wife's literal fraud, the nepotism, etc. While these stories exist, I doubt most of the democratic electorate is familiar with any of them. These all will be thrown hard at him by Trump. And a lot of these are pretty fucking gross and hard to just hand wave away. He's never been put on the spot to defend himself from this stuff.

People want to pretend that every gosh dang stupid thing Biden does proves he's just a walking time bomb, but we're just supposed to pretend that none of this shit actually matters to the general electorate? All I'm arguing for is consistency.


Oh, I do. But because RCP is shitty and includes anything/everything, I wanted to give him the utmost potential to prove he was really breaking out of that 20%.
The only reason you know about any of these stories are because people did "vetting". You care. It turned out most others didn't.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
I just disagree. You're essentially saying that Biden is just as good at turning out the youth as Bernie. Fair enough if you don't think a good amount will vote, but no way can you twist it into Biden being able to draw them out as much as Bernie.

Im saying the youth won't turn out much period. Bernie will just have it be less bad.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,921
Joe Biden is on camera sniffing little girls and has sexual harassment accusations against him.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Dont you all get tired?

I see leftists going "Hillary didnt hold back, Bernie did!"

I see centrists/libs going "Hillary held back!"

Ive seen these arguments for years and every single time the same points are brought up. Again and again.

I wasnt really there so i dont really have an opinion. But, ive read this shit over and over again. Why do you even repeat it? Is anything going to change this time you argue it?

I really dont get it.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Of course it's they who are wrong. Old people suck I'm not defending them! I'm saying what's reality and not what we wish was the case. And what's reality is while old people are mostly selfish jerks they drive the national agenda because they get out and vote like their lives fucking depend on it every single time. So it's important to placate their delicate sensibilities. Unless you expect for them to be all gone in the next 10 months?

Oh I fully agree, they are a numerical problem when it comes to our elections. I just find it funny that we live in fear of their power. With every other group, we tell them to get in line once the nominee is selected. We should do the same for old people. If they screw it up, we can all get together and blame them. Unity finally achieved!
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
That wasn't given the heat presidential candidates get in the media. Most of nation don't know this about him because he never got out of the primaries and Hillary didn't nail him on that in the least.

Vetting as in getting roasted like Hillary has her entire life over bullshit is something Bernie never experienced.



Bernie has enough skeletons as is to hurt him badly among conservatives and moderates.

If that's him holding back I'd hate to see him getting mean.
Again — you only know about these things because of "vetting". You just think more people should or would care than they did. But they didn't in 2016 about this stuff and it's unlikely they will now.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
Oh I fully agree, they are a numerical problem when it comes to our elections. I just find it funny that we live in fear of their power. With every other group, we tell them to get in line once the nominee is selected. We should do the same for old people. If they screw it up, we can all get together and blame them. Unity finally achieved!

The olds never get blamed that's the rules.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
The only reason you know about any of these stories are because people did "vetting". You care. It turned out most others didn't.
You legitimately think an attack ad featuring Bernie's literal words lamenting how unfortunate it is that children aren't allowed to be naked and touch each other wouldn't be fucking damaging among suburban moms? I also bet three quarters of the democratic electorate isn't even familiar with that shit, because no one has made it an issue.

And, again, fixating on the vetting part of my post while ignoring everything else (since there is no good answer for the fact that he's poison among older voters) is...interesting.
 

Kaitos

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Oct 25, 2017
14,835
Also I'm of the opinion that I think Biden has a better map than Bernie but both he and Bernie would probably win and Bernie would be such a better president that that matters more to me than, say, winning Wisconsin by 7 instead of 5.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Again — you only know about these things because of "vetting". You just think more people should or would care than they did. But they didn't in 2016 about this stuff and it's unlikely they will now.

You're ignoring the context, it's just that it is known (and most people don't know this) it's the heat directed at him by the media. The media never attacked him relentlessly about that in the primaries. Most bought it up once then got bored and dropped it to focus on Hillary. She was the bigger threat, not Bernie.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
You legitimately think an attack ad featuring Bernie's literal words lamenting how unfortunate it is that children aren't allowed to be naked and touch each other wouldn't be fucking damaging among suburban moms? I also bet three quarters of the democratic electorate isn't even familiar with that shit, because no one has made it an issue.

And, again, fixating on the vetting part of my post while ignoring everything else (since there is no good answer for the fact that he's poison among older voters) is...interesting.
I actually had a longer post written out but then I didn't post it because the vetting shit was so ridiculous but okay Adam.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
I'm going to piggy back off this a bit.

I want to preface this by saying, this is not me being an asshole towards Bernie. I have said this before, and I will say it again. If I genuinely thought Bernie was the best (or even a good) shot at beating Trump, I would be marching in the streets banging a drum telling everyone to vote for him. My personal disdain for him aside, the only thing I care about is beating Trump. That's literally it. If our best chance was a cheese sandwich, I'd fucking max out to that thing tomorrow. If Bernie gets the nomination, he'll get a check for the maximum from my husband and I. I will vote for him without question.

But, let's be real here...Bernie has some real issues as a candidate. And folks just hand waving them away is a disservice to both his candidacy AND to our chances of actually beating Trump. Some of the weaknesses are things he can't do anything about (ie his health issues). Folks will just have to make a value judgement on that one way or the other. But, Bernie has never been vetted. He has had basically no attacks levied against him by anyone. Pete has been more heavily scrutinized than Bernie has, not to mention Warren and Biden. (Warren having a vagina means she gets 3x the critique from all sides.) Bernie has real weaknesses as a candidate, especially in the states we need to win.

Most everyone, even Bernie supporters, freely admit that with him on the ballot Florida is pretty much off the table. (A combination of anti-socialism sentiment among winnable Cuban voters, older voters, etc.) And while I do not believe we should rest all of our hopes on Florida, you cannot pretend that Florida exists solely in a vacuum, and that there are no demographic conclusions to be drawn. (you know what other state has an older population? Arizona.) Also, the old Florida joke, the further south you go the more north you end up holds true. The I-4 corridor is populated with transplants from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. And while one can argue the utility of state specific polling this far out, we have data points that Bernie runs worse than Biden in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. And I think folks need to be honest with themselves as to why that is.

For most folks, the economy is actually doing really well. They do their 9-5, they have enough in the bank and if they need a new job they can find one. They're mostly happy with their health insurance, and the idea of massive REVOLUTION is not appealing to them. Couple that with America's history of...let's say skepticism towards socialism, makes nominating a self described socialist worrying.

Folks LOVE to point out the idiocy and risk of nominating someone like Pete who struggles so much with the most important constituency in the Democratic electorate--black voters. Yet most Bernie supporters literally seem to give zero fucks that Bernie is basically DOA with anyone over 35, and literally dead with voters over 65. (In the Iowa poll in which Bernie is leading? He's running SIXTH among voters 55+. He's at 6%. He's running behind Klob!) This is a HUGE fucking problem. There aren't enough young people to offset older voters in the General Election. One, the youth don't vote, and two, even if they do, you cannot lose olds by massive margins (especially in places like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan) and expect to win. For example, in the national congressional ballot in 2018, those 65+ made up 26% of the electorate. We only lost them by 2 points. No one has articulated any possible solution to this demographic problem.Pretending it doesn't exist, that it isn't worrying, that it's nothing to be concerned with.....that's just not reality.

And, finally, no one has been able to articulate a single swing state in which Bernie is better poised than Biden to help us win.Everyone admits Florida is totally off the table with Biden as the nominee. I feel pretty safe to say you can say the same with North Carolina and Texas. Bernie runs behind Biden in polling of PA and WI. Arizona is literally full of old people.

If you like Bernie, that's fine. That's cool. I'm glad you have a candidate you like. (I don't get it, but I also don't get people who like Mariah, sushi or heterosexuality.) But every gosh dang critique of Bernie is not some media neo-liberal conspiracy. Once in a while, there are legitimate critiques that need better answers than just "Ok boomer."

I still want Bernie supporters to dissect these major points and prove to me how were wrong to be concerned about them.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,835
You're ignoring the context, it's just that it is known (and most people don't know this) it's the heat directed at him by the media. The media never attacked him relentlessly about that in the primaries. Most bought it up once then got bored and dropped it to focus on Hillary. She was the bigger threat, not Bernie.
I'm not ignoring the context. You're ignoring the reality that this stuff was brought up and no one cared. This is all in the public record!
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Dont you all get tired?

I see leftists going "Hillary didnt hold back, Bernie did!"

I see centrists/libs going "Hillary held back!"

Ive seen these arguments for years and every single time the same points are brought up. Again and again.

I wasnt really there so i dont really have an opinion. But, ive read this shit over and over again. Why do you even repeat it? Is anything going to change this time you argue it?

I really dont get it.

This is why I didn't want him to run since he's eternally linked to '16.

I'm not ignoring the context. You're ignoring the reality that this stuff was brought up and no one cared. This is all in the public record!

I explained that "vetting" means more than that. And it's not common knowledge.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,515
I'm voting Bernie because he shares my political goals, but I have little faith in the man to accomplish them and I don't have much faith in his cabinet. That said, I'm good with Biden winning for mostly opposite reasons. His goals are still a leap forward and he'd be more likely to accomplish them and he'd have a smarter cabinet. I'm not excited.
 
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