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fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,305
Is this the test you're talking about?

And yeah, I'm not trying to shit on anyone's hard work because making a great test must be very difficult. I was just disappointed by the NYTimes article because I was hoping a great test was ready to go on a large scale, but it doesn't seem to be that way.

Yep, that's the one.

One of the challenges w/ COVID is that science and technology right now doesn't have all the answers. It has enough to be a basis of policy, but we're largely used to it being effectively omniscient.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
I'll throw out a theory: These people value their integrity very highly. Maybe they consider it a defining feature of their core selves.

I'm going to keep this intentionally vague but I will say I feel way too much political discussion on this broader forum is more about "moral superiority" than anything else. It makes a lot of political topics a pain to participate in.

Sure, this is another possibility. I think AnotherNils is more charitable than I might be about it, though. I think quite a bit of it is performative and some of it is for purposes of just being shitty to people online except with a veneer of decency wrapped around it so that it's harder to call out.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,426
Arkansas, USA
A bit over a week ago, we had several people just start posting about socialist theory, I complained, was told by everyone this was the general politics thread, tough shit. Was banned for a week.

Now you are telling me this IS a community?
Nobody except me had any actions taken against them to my knowledge.

I've barely posted, and at this point, why should I?

This is how I feel. The permanent ban of kirblar was the canary in the coal mine. This forum has been overrun by toxic posters and the admins have actively encouraged it.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,280
Places
I think people need to chill. Nobody should leave. This is still the best thread on the board to talk politics. Just ignore people who suck and suddenly it becomes super easy.

That's the only way to do it. There are so many people on era that the best I can tell are trolls, so I ignore them. I must have 30 people on my ignore list.
 

aspiegamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,553
ZzzzzzZzzzZzz...
I'm suuuuuuuuuper bad at change so this, like, breaks my brain. No interest in leaving but, like, I don't want to miss out on posting wisdom. Actually, I'd thought I had the discord, but upon loading it I have zero servers. Oops. Ooh, is there some kind of lurker account credentials?

There's no reason this community needs to die, but lord knows I'm not contributing much insightful content so I'ma need some help.
it does feel like there's been a lot of ban baiting going on lately. I nope out of anything controversial real quick.
Pretty much. We should have seen this coming when OP instructions started including warnings to not talk about OT and we largely started to pretend it doesn't exist.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,107
New York City
Sure, this is another possibility. I think AnotherNils is more charitable than I might be about it, though. I think quite a bit of it is performative and some of it is for purposes of just being shitty to people online except with a veneer of decency wrapped around it so that it's harder to call out.
Even if it were to be 100% genuine. I know that my own integrity is worth sacrificing for even one of Trumps rampages let alone the several that have happened. and Honestly I think I actually can be a little short with you if you seem to think that the selfish one is me.

On a side note: To all the lurkers be respectful but post what you think about the situation if you want to. Its a shame people cant post around here because they want to win an election and feel that they cant express it. This place doesnt have to be a lost cause. Communities can grow.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
I have been unemployed for the last month and have plenty of time, so if anyone would like to ask or discuss, moderators included, in DM, feel free to do so, so long as it is not harassment, though I should warn you, if it is, I'm going to dunk on you. :)
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,526
This is how I feel. The permanent ban of kirblar was the canary in the coal mine. This forum has been overrun by toxic posters and the admins have actively encouraged it.

Yeah Kirblar getting perma'd blew my mind. Dude has made nothing but reasonable posts his entire time here.

But what do you expect? The head admin of the forum is admitting in this thread that he's scared to share his opinions. It's the environment that moderators have fostered.
 

Sanguine

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,276
TBH, at this point, I just ignore antagonistic posters and threads (such as the Biden ad one) and my browsing experience has been much better. It sucks to see so many regulars leaving - as has been mentioned, I used them as a source of information (particularly since almost all political sub reddits have seemed to be overtaken by bad faith posters).
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
7,327
Kirblar was one of the more data-driven people here and actually helped change my perspective on a lot of things - I definitely think he contributed a lot to this community.
 

Goat Mimicry

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
I mentioned double standards with regards to PoliEra posters before, and here's a great example:

I suspect we have a number of Trump supporters and non-voters on this forum who are too embarrassed, so they concern troll Biden instead. I feel like those people were never going to vote for the Dem nominee so I just ignore them. It is quite annoying how they shit up every thread in OT but what are you gonna do.

I'm not saying Biden is perfect and the he can't be criticized, but the venom and comparisons to Trump are absurd. It seems like some folks are just setting up justifications to support Trump sometimes.
I just said I think there are some concern trolls equating Biden with Trump on issues like race. I tried to be very clear that I was not taking about everyone who criticizes Biden.

Frankish said there are some people on Era who aren't arguing in good faith. Despite clarifying that they weren't talking about everybody who has problems with Biden, they got a 1 week ban.

1 page later, Poodlestrike posted this:
This has been the hair-on-fire struggle of these threads. Almost everybody involved is scared and hurting and lashing out, often for very understandable reasons. It's an intersectional minefield, with people from under-privileged groups tearing into each other. And it's not made any easier by the fact that yes, some people are in fact not posting in good faith, or at least have secondary agendas. People can pick up on that, even if staff can't always prove it. But then that understanding gets twisted around into a belief that everybody who disagrees with them is just a troll, or looking to silence them, or what have you.

The bold part is an acknowledgement of the same trend that Frankish ate a ban for pointing out. Why is that point unreasonable when it comes from one poster but not the other? Where's the consistency?
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,426
Arkansas, USA
I don't know what lead to Kir getting permed but any community that doesn't want him probably doesn't want me either.

Despite his tendency towards contrarian viewpoints he was a great debater that brought a lot to this forum. It is absurd that someone as talented as he was at spurring discussion was banned. It was a horrible decision that reflects very poorly on this community.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,999
I hope posters stay, at least in this thread. I've definitely had to use the ignore feature for the first time on here, so I can understand the frustration with OT. I'm not really sure what the best way to moderate it is but I think there's several posters in OT who are trying to be inflammatory as possible in their language and how they frame things. Obviously people are going to respond in turn to that.

The goal should be to have respectful discussion. It should not be trying to make people as pissed off as possible. And there ought to be enough room for people to ask questions and learn why people believe the things they do and to give an opinion on an issue/situation.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,107
New York City
I really think we shoudl air our grievances with the mod team as a community. There has to be guidlines when it comes to how we talk about the election. We have to be allowed to support our candidate despite his flaws and for it to not be seen as an attack on others.
 
Could I have a discord link?

4UZPcDM.gif
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
Even if it were to be 100% genuine. I know that my own integrity is worth sacrificing for even one of Trumps rampages let alone the several that have happened. and Honestly I think I actually can be a little short with you if you seem to think that the selfish one is me.

Absolutely. I do wonder, genuinely, about people who do argue that their integrity is more important than making sure to beat Trump. There has to be some privilege there, even if one is a minority who is at more risk than others. One must feel as though they'll make it out okay if Trump wins again.

I think I'd probably survive - I live in a D-D-D state that is going to be D-D-D after the election, probably, and even though I'm black, I am in a position where I'm probably not going to have my life destroyed in the next four years, though with Trump and the GOP in charge, anything is possible.

But Trump and the GOP running things is unacceptable. I don't get people who don't find that to be totally unacceptable, or who find something else MORE unacceptable than that, particularly when the "MORE unacceptable" thing is Joe fucking Biden.

To say this is not a defense of Joe Biden as a person, and I wish that people would stop making that claim or acting/responding as if such a claim were naturally true of someone who put getting rid of Trump over other (often important!) things.
 

Sagroth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,386
User banned (1 week): inappropriate armchair diagnosis
I'll throw out a theory: These people value their integrity very highly. Maybe they consider it a defining feature of their core selves. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't remember 2000 or 2004, either.

I'm reminded of a great line from Al Swearengen from Deadwood: "In life you have to do a lot of things you don't fucking want to do. Many times, that's what the fuck life is... one vile fucking task after another."

Consider voting for Biden that vile fucking task.
I think both you and HotHamBoy are onto something, and I agree that both explain many cases, but I think there's a third possibility as well:

Trauma-born response akin to BPD. And it manifests thusly:

1. Complete black or white thinking. Something is all good or all bad - no shades of gray.

2. A demand for validation - and emotional validation at that. Simple acknowledgement won't do - it has to be a response as drenched in emotion as their own. Anything else is a betrayal.

3. A focus on one's individual pain as opposed to what is best for other survivors/members of the group. The group can be invoked, but only as an appeal for personal sympathy (ie "Think of how this hurts me as ____" as opposed to "I know how hard this is on my fellow _____."
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,378
Wonder who he is talking about with the globalists. Probably people who believe in global supply chain.
 

pirata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,499
I'm just checking this thread and honestly not sure what's going on, but I would also appreciate an invite to the Discord (although I greatly prefer the forum).
 

ChucklesB

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,490
I think Northam remains a good comp. Did I want him to resign? Yes. Would I have voted for him if I needed to? Yes. Will I forgive him for the past stuff? No. Does it matter if I forgive him? No. Is he passing good policy? Yes.

Okay.

I don't get too entrenched with loving politicians. Liz is about as close as I get to idolizing someone, but even then, it's more just because I like pragmatist approach in her, but still I recognize she's a politician. It doesn't make me feel "good" to vote for someone basically. I understand that's what gets many to polls, but it's not part of the equation for me.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,107
New York City
I think both you and HotHamBoy are onto something, and I agree that both explain many cases, but I think there's a third possibility as well:

Trauma-born response akin to BPD. And it manifests thusly:

1. Complete black or white thinking. Something is all good or all bad - no shades of gray.

2. A demand for validation - and emotional validation at that. Simple acknowledgement won't do - it has to be a response as drenched in emotion as their own. Anything else is a betrayal.

3. A focus on one's individual pain as opposed to what is best for other survivors/members of the group. The group can be invoked, but only as an appeal for personal sympathy (ie "Think of how this hurts me as ____" as opposed to "I know how hard this is on my fellow _____."
I think a lot of people genuinely think they are selfless because they see the aspect of total justice as the destinationt hat benefits everyone. What they dont realize is all of the injustice that the path is paved with when we have a system that makes that road next to impossible.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,280
Places
Let me be exacting in my response here.

For a long while now there has been derisiveness towards PoliEra. Our members typically talked less and less on the forum itself, and especially in Etcetera, outside of this thread and now, off-site. The reason for this is simple. If you post a moderate opinion, you get derided. If you post a liberal opinion, you get derided. If you aren't exactly how the wave of posters in Etcetera are, you are labeled awful things. Want Biden to win over Trump when it's clear he's the nominee? You're a rape apologist and you hate victims. Want to ensure that the system doesn't collapse while we try to switch over to a frankly, superior healthcare system? You support the deaths of millions of people a year who could not pay a for-profit healthcare system. Want investigations rather than jumping to conclusions? You're downplaying sexual assault.

And because moderate takes that do not necessarily meet the expectations other posters might have of their peers are in opposition to claiming a presidential candidate has dementia or, despite an absence of evidence (which does NOT imply evidence of absence), calling him a rapist, with moderation seeming light touch if not absent, it's made it extremely difficult to talk about politics anywhere but here or off-site. Literally nobody is downplaying sexual assault when they claim they don't want it to be true, hope it's not, but give enough respect to the victim that they call for an investigation. But in Etcetera, that has happened.

It isn't just overtly negative responses. It also goes into harassment. Harassment of mods, harassment and brigading of posts, snipes instead of discussion, belief over policy wherein discussion is branded as an attack, and so on.

And then, once the discussion stops, because surprise, there's nothing to discuss when the only ones that are left believe, post, and act in the same way with no room for moderation or opposition to those beliefs, the self-same people who claimed dementia and rape-enabling and victim-blaming and downplaying of sexual assault started coming here.

To snipe. To brigade.

And all the while, the line was that there are minorities, they're angry, they're panicking, and it's best to give them space. As if there were no minority voices here (myself, for instance) panicking, angry, terrified, and resolved to do what can be done, and this is the general politics thread, no it's the community thread, no it's the general politics thread!

So when people tried to push back after being baited in bad faith, they were banned. But the ones who argued in bad faith to pull people in? They were still out there, posting.

I am sympathetic to people who are angry, panicked, dejected. Their candidate appears to have lost, they fear a repeat of 2016. I am in the same place. I didn't want Biden, for instance, any more than they do.

But what is not sympathetic is the frankly terrifying response with that anger, dejection, and panic, wherein a closing of ranks let to them forcefully push anything opposing to their views out and then, when it was clear they had won, decide to dash the 'enemy' on the rocks.

So now, feeling bereft of moderation in Etcetera and in our own community, feeling attacked, unwanted, derided, hated, and for some of us -- like myself -- terrified that people for whom we share 99% of beliefs would rather stab us in the back out of some kneejerk response, than swallow their pride to cause the least harm, posters who have been here since before Resetera, who helped build the site as the rest of us fled from the other, are deciding it is no longer worth it to stick around.

Now it feels as if the site has been lost.

It is regrettable, because just like we saw in Etcetera, once the discussion dries up, they force it elsewhere. Now that Etcetera looks like Lord of the Flies, this place, too, shall resemble the same.

Thank you for your rational words.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
I think both you and HotHamBoy are onto something, and I agree that both explain many cases, but I think there's a third possibility as well:

Trauma-born response akin to BPD. And it manifests thusly:

1. Complete black or white thinking. Something is all good or all bad - no shades of gray.

2. A demand for validation - and emotional validation at that. Simple acknowledgement won't do - it has to be a response as drenched in emotion as their own. Anything else is a betrayal.

3. A focus on one's individual pain as opposed to what is best for other survivors/members of the group. The group can be invoked, but only as an appeal for personal sympathy (ie "Think of how this hurts me as ____" as opposed to "I know how hard this is on my fellow _____."
I wanted to sit out the discourse in here and let regulars figure out what they wanted to do but this is totally over the line

I thought and would hope that this forum stays firm against the practice of using people's 'mental health' to diagnose political persuasions
 

SwordsmanofS

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,451
It's a shame what's happening to this place. Not the biggest fan of Discord, but I'll manage. OT is actually ok, except when it comes to political discussions.

Poor Midnight Jon. I hope he isn't the only one in charge with Discord invites.
 

Zona

Member
Oct 27, 2017
463
Let me be exacting in my response here.

For a long while now there has been derisiveness towards PoliEra. Our members typically talked less and less on the forum itself, and especially in Etcetera, outside of this thread and now, off-site. The reason for this is simple. If you post a moderate opinion, you get derided. If you post a liberal opinion, you get derided. If you aren't exactly how the wave of posters in Etcetera are, you are labeled awful things. Want Biden to win over Trump when it's clear he's the nominee? You're a rape apologist and you hate victims. Want to ensure that the system doesn't collapse while we try to switch over to a frankly, superior healthcare system? You support the deaths of millions of people a year who could not pay a for-profit healthcare system. Want investigations rather than jumping to conclusions? You're downplaying sexual assault.

And because moderate takes that do not necessarily meet the expectations other posters might have of their peers are in opposition to claiming a presidential candidate has dementia or, despite an absence of evidence (which does NOT imply evidence of absence), calling him a rapist, with moderation seeming light touch if not absent, it's made it extremely difficult to talk about politics anywhere but here or off-site. Literally nobody is downplaying sexual assault when they claim they don't want it to be true, hope it's not, but give enough respect to the victim that they call for an investigation. But in Etcetera, that has happened.

It isn't just overtly negative responses. It also goes into harassment. Harassment of mods, harassment and brigading of posts, snipes instead of discussion, belief over policy wherein discussion is branded as an attack, and so on.

And then, once the discussion stops, because surprise, there's nothing to discuss when the only ones that are left believe, post, and act in the same way with no room for moderation or opposition to those beliefs, the self-same people who claimed dementia and rape-enabling and victim-blaming and downplaying of sexual assault started coming here.

To snipe. To brigade.

And all the while, the line was that there are minorities, they're angry, they're panicking, and it's best to give them space. As if there were no minority voices here (myself, for instance) panicking, angry, terrified, and resolved to do what can be done, and this is the general politics thread, no it's the community thread, no it's the general politics thread!

So when people tried to push back after being baited in bad faith, they were banned. But the ones who argued in bad faith to pull people in? They were still out there, posting.

I am sympathetic to people who are angry, panicked, dejected. Their candidate appears to have lost, they fear a repeat of 2016. I am in the same place. I didn't want Biden, for instance, any more than they do.

But what is not sympathetic is the frankly terrifying response with that anger, dejection, and panic, wherein a closing of ranks let to them forcefully push anything opposing to their views out and then, when it was clear they had won, decide to dash the 'enemy' on the rocks.

So now, feeling bereft of moderation in Etcetera and in our own community, feeling attacked, unwanted, derided, hated, and for some of us -- like myself -- terrified that people for whom we share 99% of beliefs would rather stab us in the back out of some kneejerk response, than swallow their pride to cause the least harm, posters who have been here since before Resetera, who helped build the site as the rest of us fled from the other, are deciding it is no longer worth it to stick around.

Now it feels as if the site has been lost.

It is regrettable, because just like we saw in Etcetera, once the discussion dries up, they force it elsewhere. Now that Etcetera looks like Lord of the Flies, this place, too, shall resemble the same.
Absolutely amazing post!

Fuck knows I'm mostly a lurker but the moderation on this forum has seemed... uneven for a while. When you have posts like this by a Moderator in the OT it makes it seem like there's no room for nuanced discussion.

I've appreciated the level of discourse in these threads since the GAF days, and I have no idea how I would keep up with the news without them. I sent Midnight Jon a DM, but if I could get a discord invite when people have time I would apricate being able to include it in my lurking.
 

AnotherNils

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,936
Sure, this is another possibility. I think AnotherNils is more charitable than I might be about it, though. I think quite a bit of it is performative and some of it is for purposes of just being shitty to people online except with a veneer of decency wrapped around it so that it's harder to call out.
Yes my theory is predicated on good faith reluctance and not typical internet asshattery.


This is how I feel. The permanent ban of kirblar was the canary in the coal mine. This forum has been overrun by toxic posters and the admins have actively encouraged it.
Yeah, I don't recall have no issues with the guy, but I try to be easy going and don't pay close attention as it is. Problem is for me to have an opinion the matter would require delving into what feels like internet drama and risking stepping on toes of the moderation team. I don't have the time for that, let alone during a pandemic where I had to stop reading the news because I was living at a level of anxiety that made it feel like some one had a grip on my trachea 24/7
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,426
I think Northam remains a good comp. Did I want him to resign? Yes. Would I have voted for him if I needed to? Yes. Will I forgive him for the past stuff? No. Does it matter if I forgive him? No. Is he passing good policy? Yes.

Okay.

I don't get too entrenched with loving politicians. Liz is about as close as I get to idolizing someone, but even then, it's more just because I like pragmatist approach in her, but still I recognize she's a politician. It doesn't make me feel "good" to vote for someone basically. I understand that's what gets many to polls, but it's not part of the equation for me.

Virginia is like the ur-example of what you can do with a D Trifecta led by a problematic, center-left executive and its like heaven compared to what we have for a federal government right now. I would be legit excited to have something like that, and it bums me out that so many are apt to let "perfect be the enemy of good/great" :(
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,597
I mentioned double standards with regards to PoliEra posters before, and here's a great example:




Frankish said there are some people on Era who aren't arguing in good faith. Despite clarifying that they weren't talking about everybody who has problems with Biden, they got a 1 week ban.

1 page later, Poodlestrike posted this:


The bold part is an acknowledgement of the same trend that Frankish ate a ban for pointing out. Why is that point unreasonable when it comes from one poster but not the other? Where's the consistency?
Mostly that I didn't call 'em closet Trump voters. That's a much more serious accusation.
 

Nekemancer

Member
Apr 5, 2019
2
I apologize in advance for another repetitive post.

I've been lurking for several years, and the community here has been an incredible resource for me. I've shared posts with friends and family, learned a lot about politics in general and in specific areas, and have great respect for many people here. Many of those who have recently been banned or chosen to leave on their own. I can't really add anything Abstrusity didn't cover in their wonderful post, so I'll just link back to it instead.

I'll continue to keep a phone tab open here, but I would also appreciate a Discord invite. I understand the concerns of getting a huge influx of lurkers, and would be totally fine with a limited role, but I don't know where I'd go for the same level of intelligent, fun and interesting conversations.

I also want to say a general thanks to those who've been consistently active and involved here over the years. Thank you for teaching us, thank you for your time, your effort, your work, your wit. It hasn't gone unappreciated.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,280
Places
I do also tend to use this more for news, with the discussion being a happy bonus when it happens. But even then I'm mostly invested in it more when it has to do with polling/election trends than the "what's best for America" discussions. Which is not to say this can't be a place for multiple things, but just saying how I tend to use it, and why I go to this instead of ever wandering into OT.

Same.

If y'all do go to discord send an invite my way please. I'll probably comment more knowing that there aren't trolls ban baiting. I was a Beto then Warren supporter and now tepid Biden supporter.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,526
ID also take a discord link if possible -- I've really only ever lurked this thread but the conversation has been great.
 
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