• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,757
I don't get the "this is why I won't buy digital" argument, because if you bought the games, you'll still have them after this is done. That's how it's always worked, and this is no different.

And if you haven't bought these games yet, after all these years, then it's pretty clear by now that you were never going to buy them anyway, so you're still not losing anything.
Or people had to put priorities over other things before getting them, whenever it's financial or life decisions along with time for those games. If you collect for other systems a lot and wanted to get those games before they get pricey along with the ones that are pricey anyways then I can see why they never got to them but wanted to. People can try to buy them it's just there are many other factors that get in the way so the whole "never going to buy them" thing doesn't always fly here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,372
Cincinnati
Sure but that's still Sony's choice. They're the ones that decided neither the PS4 nor the PS5 would be able to download and play any PS3 games, let alone the disc versions. It's not the PS3 store itself closing that's the issue, but that newer consoles since cannot access it at all.



It may not be good enough but the door has been opened nonetheless and more games can always be added to it over time. I'd be very surprised if Microsoft wasn't going to make as many older games available as is legally possible.

Besides, think of it like this - in seven years the PS6 will be released and, before 2030, the PS4 will be discontinued. If the PS6 cannot play PS4 games because "nobody plays old games" but the Xbox 5 can still play Xbox One games, then the disparity simply continues to exist and enlarge. Over time, the newest Xbox consoles will have access to decades of videogames but the newest Sony consoles will act as though anything older than seven or eight years doesn't exist at all.

Oh I agree with you 100%. What Microsoft is doing is leaps and bounds better than what the competition is doing, and they are clearly on the right path. I just hope that path continues as it's been some time since they added anything new to the BC program, obviously a new console and COVID etc. have probably not helped with that. In the end I just hope that Xbox is successful enough to light a fire under both Sony and Nintendo's (lol...) ass to be better at preserving their legacy content. I do however think PS systems from here on out will be BC with each other since they are finally on a more PC structured system build like Xbox is but we shall see.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,372
Cincinnati
I would imagine very, very, very little if they're closing the stores. The cost of keeping the servers up for them aren't worth the return.

Not saying I agree with them closing the stores. I think it's terrible and sucks, but from a cost perspective for them, I could understand the decision. I'm personally not worried about investing in the digital nature of their ecosystem over this, but I understand those who might be hesitant now.

I would have to imagine that since those games haven't been on any sort of sale in who knows how long, most people aren't buying them like you said. Had they kept the sales going, it probably would be much different.
 

Gassy_N0va

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,748
Its so disingenuous to come into these threads with the 'well if you havent bought these games yet, you were never going to' take. Yeah, man, all I think about is how I gotta use all my time and energy to only buy classic games instead of the rational, 'hey I have always wanted to play this game and never had the chance, let me plug my PS3 in and pick it up once I'm done with the game I'm playing now'
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
That's just film. Television is much worse than this. A lot of TV programs made as recently as the 90s are just lost permanently.

The only reason more of it isnt permanently lost than it is, is because a woman named Marion Stokes realized this problem and ran VHS recordings of broadcast tv every day from 1979 until she died in 2012.

amp.wbur.org

'Recorder': Meet The Woman Who Recorded 70,000 Tapes Of American News

Marion Stokes recorded over 70,000 tapes of television from the late 1970s until her death in 2012.

The majority of the tv programs i grew up with are simply permanently inaccessible in any format. Cant be bought, rented, streamed or otherwise.
Streaming might get to a lot of it that we consider lost but is stored somewhere. For example, in Spain the public TV has this massive warehouse of tapes and DVDs with decades worth of content. Recently, I subscribed to a Spanish streaming platform called Filmin focused on independent film and classics, and was surprised to find my childhood cartoons that I thought I'd never be able to see again in their catalogue.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,089
majority of ps3 consoles sold cannot play ps2 BC, only ps1. so there is a cutoff
What's the difference between cutoff being 'must own PS2' vs 'must own PS3'? As far as preservation goes, you're stuck with the same hardware cut-off as 95% of all console history, everywhere.

And that still doesn't make said titles digital-only. To be specific, using this criteria, the list should be expanded to include 'all' PSN published PSP titles. As they fall into exact same bucket (one legacy hw that plays UMDs, and one that can only access digital copy).
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,199
Streaming might get to a lot of it that we consider lost but is stored somewhere. For example, in Spain the public TV has this massive warehouse of tapes and DVDs with decades worth of content. Recently, I subscribed to a Spanish streaming platform called Filmin focused on independent film and classics, and was surprised to find my childhood cartoons that I thought I'd never be able to see again in their catalogue.

Read the article I posted to you. The reason why the Stokes archive is notable (and being digitized by universities) is because the vast majority of what stokes recorded does not exist anywhere and was simply destroyed. The status quo for broadcast television wasn't "archiving" or "storing" it somewhere, that footage was discarded and destroyed as a practice.

edit: this clip from wiki explains a big part of the problem:

  • Almost all of NBC's The Tonight Show with Jack Paar and the first ten years (1962–1972) hosted by Johnny Carson were taped over by the network and no longer exist. The videotape was being used repeatedly, hence the reason that Carson's Tonight Show picture looked muddy during broadcast in the late 1960s. Selected sequences from the 1962–1972 era survive and were often replayed by Carson himself (particularly in the months preceding his retirement in 1992) and have been released to home video; some audiotapes and still pictures of those years also exist. Some Paar episodes also survive and have also been released to home video (in this case, DVD).
  • Similarly, NBC reused the tapes of ventriloquist Shari Lewis's 1960–1963 Saturday morning children's program The Shari Lewis Show, to record coverage of the 1964 Democratic and Republican National Conventions. Lewis said in an interview decades later that to her, this was a shame, since the shows were beautifully done as a showcase of NBC's early color broadcast work.

  • Almost all daytime game shows from the 1970s and before have been destroyed. CBS's archives begin in 1972, ABC's in 1978, and NBC's in 1980. A handful of producers (most notably Goodson-Todman) did arrange for the preservation of their shows even during the tape-recycling period.

Broadcast networks reused tape as a practice and there wasn't any thought to preserve these shows- the tape would be reused and the show that was on it obliterated in the process. The more frequently a show ran, the less likely anyone was to preserve anything. This happened for small local stuff, to nationally syndicated stuff- all the way up to sports broadcasts. There are no copies of Super Bowl II in existence, anywhere. The network simply obliterated it and taped over the recording.
 
Last edited:

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,150
In all seriousness, I truly hope that this is only a means to bolster the PS Now library. That is my wish for the end outcome.
My wish as well. Just make them all part of the subscription. If server costs are an issue, then that immediately creates a steady stream of revenue. Bonus points if they make an emulator & allow us to also download this games just like PS4 games on PS Now (yes, I am completely aware of the difficulty of making PS3 games playable this way).
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Oh I agree with you 100%. What Microsoft is doing is leaps and bounds better than what the competition is doing, and they are clearly on the right path. I just hope that path continues as it's been some time since they added anything new to the BC program, obviously a new console and COVID etc. have probably not helped with that. In the end I just hope that Xbox is successful enough to light a fire under both Sony and Nintendo's (lol...) ass to be better at preserving their legacy content. I do however think PS systems from here on out will be BC with each other since they are finally on a more PC structured system build like Xbox is but we shall see.

I certainly hope so but part of me is looking at how Demon's Souls is a PS3 game, how the PS5 can't play those and how there's a Demon's Souls remake for £70 on the PS5 and thinking to myself that it's totally on-brand for Sony to simply not allow us to play older games on their newer consoles so they can sell them to us again instead at a premium price.

It's not that Sony can't implement backwards compatibility. I just don't think they want to. Why allow us to play the PS4 remasters of the Uncharted trilogy on the PS6, for example, if they can remake them instead and charge £80 for each game in it?
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,089
336 PS2 Classics? They ported that many PS2 games to PS3? I thought it was just a few dozen.
Not ports, it's digital-only BC(emulated) releases. But yes, the selection isn't much smaller than PS1 classics in the end, it actually grew faster in the years it's been active - had they not basically shut it down with PS4 launch, it'd probably be larger of the two by now.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,107
The issue with the "you can still download the games you bought" argument is there might be people who find out about some of these games and become interested in them in the future, but can't buy them, or simply take their business somewhere other than Sony.

Edit: Oh, and I imagine the number of PS1 classics on the Japanese store is four digits.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,764
What I meant is that a good chunk of those who should care the most (the hardcore base to put it more lightly) simply doesn't.
Adding salt to the wound, they're more concerned over the earnings of a multibillion dollars corporation, in a time when they're more profitable than ever.
We went from "Only 2 or 3 of our games are profitable, but it's important to bolster our first party catalog" to "let's cut everything that doesn't rack us a tremendous amount of money". It may make sense business wise, but consumers justifying it (and worse) is just out of this world.
I agree.
I think the unfortunate part is that Sony is also not super engaged with their avid, enthusiast fanbase.

We ask them about 1440p support and they say, "Nobody uses that"
And technically, 99% of people probably aren't playing on a 1440p native device.

We can tweet at Sony all day and I don't feel like they listen unless its super egregious. They have demonstrated instances of paying attention to community feedback in the past, but usually not particularly responsive.
 

Domcorleone

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,192
I think Jim Ryan running the show will be a huge mistake the way don mattrick was. Can't keep burning up good will and expect consumers to stick around.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
The issue with the "you can still download the games you bought" argument is there might be people who find out about some of these games and become interested in them in the future, but can't buy them, or simply take their business somewhere other than Sony.

Edit: Oh, and I imagine the number of PS1 classics on the Japanese store is four digits.
And even then, PS3s will die at some point. Heck even the servers can get taken down.

What then?
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,273
The all mighty digital future.
 

JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,394
Jim Ryan is the worst. Who would want a PlayStation with this guy at the helm? Especially new customers?
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
As far as the "nobody must be buying those games" argument goes, if Sony didn't kill sales for PSP, PSV and PS3, maybe people would still buy games for them on a semi-regular basis. But they did. No discounts for years now. Unforced error. I'm not putting down €30-40+ for many current games, let alone old digital ones.
100%

I almost only buy retro games on Xbox and Switch when they have a good sale. I recently bought Sonic Adventure 2 on Xbox. I wouldn't have if it cost more than 3 or 5 bucks, but for that much it's worth it just to replay that awesome first level.

A lot of the time you don't know if you'll be able to get into the game, a jrpg might require too much grinding with random battles, or a game might have awful camera or controls that aged terribly, or very sexist content that you no longer tolerate. Or maybe you won't spend money because you know you have the Dreamcast version in the closet and would only buy it in order to avoid having to put the console together and play a smoother version. So for the price of a cup of coffee, you give it a shot. For 20€, you don't.

It feels like Sony thought: we don't want to invest in these old games so that in a couple of years we can release a PlayStation Mini and make more money. Then that did terribly and now they are like "see? Nobody likes old games, they don't buy them anywhere."

Meanwhile, Xbox have people switching to their ecosystem for this reason. Maybe not millions of players, but the ones who invest the most in the ecosystem and buy consoles early on and then convince their friends to join them. I think it'd be foolish to claim this will affect Sony's bottom line but I do believe this decision will be detrimental to Sony in the long run, meaning they'll loose more money than they are saving. They are not slowly capitalizing on those old games in (shitty but) smart ways like Nintendo with their classic mini consoles and crazy expensive, limited run remasters. Sony are simply being short-sighted and prioritizing short term profit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,645
Digital only is bad and physical only is bad too.

What I hate the most is how unfinished some games are at launch. The most get patched and get better BUT imagine you have an old physical game that needs a patch to be fully enjoyable (bugfixes, performance improvements,..) and these servers are shut down someday... You'll be fucked with half finished software.
 

criteriondog

I like the chili style
Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,286
Sony had the Ps4 generation to do that including the Ps3 in some extend for the Pro.
I think that the added weight of their stores going on and Microsoft leveraging BC as a massive feature, and that we already got PS4 on PS5 will help. I think the pressure will get tighter for Sony, to hopefully act.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
I hope Sony catches so much heat for this that they'll implement full backwards compatibility for PS1, PS2, PSP, Vita, and maybe even PS3 games on the PS5.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,199
Digital only is bad and physical only is bad too.

What I hate the most is how unfinished some games are at launch. The most get patched and get better BUT imagine you have an old physical game that needs a patch to be fully enjoyable (bugfixes, performance improvements,..) and these servers are shut down someday... You'll be fucked with half finished software.

You can patch physical games via emulation. Fan communities have done this, though I think the most notable example of this was patching the US FFXII into the International Edition before FFXII:TZA was released.

Even if you aren't going this route, later editions of games (greatest hits, directors cuts, GOTY editions etc) do include the patches, bugfixes, etc that launch editions don't have- and almost everything notable gets at least one of these.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
44,059
That's terrible, but isn't a huge part of it available in other stores/PC?

"Disappear" is a strong word lol. And 90% of those probably would never be made if physical was required.

If you care about retaining access and control of the content you bought, don't buy these things digitally.

I'm pretty sure Steam will be fine, I own Prey 2006 there.

Sony/Nintendo though... 100% exclusives.
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,206
Cleveland, OH
I was thinking about this a couple of days ago. It's going to be very strange to be able to purchase digital multiplatform games that were originally on both the Xbox 360 and PS3, but will soon just be on Xbox 360. And a lot of those games are even compatible with current-gen Xbox One and Xbox Series X|S consoles! It's just so bizarre.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
Read the article I posted to you. The reason why the Stokes archive is notable (and being digitized by universities) is because the vast majority of what stokes recorded does not exist anywhere and was simply destroyed. The status quo for broadcast television wasn't "archiving" or "storing" it somewhere, that footage was discarded and destroyed as a practice.

edit: this clip from wiki explains a big part of the problem:



Broadcast networks reused tape as a practice and there wasn't any thought to preserve these shows- the tape would be reused and the show that was on it obliterated in the process. The more frequently a show ran, the less likely anyone was to preserve anything. This happened for small local stuff, to nationally syndicated stuff- all the way up to sports broadcasts. There are no copies of Super Bowl II in existence, anywhere. The network simply obliterated it and taped over the recording.
I read the article, I'm just signaling that that is not always the case, different countries or networks have different attitudes towards it and that streaming has the potential to bring stuff back. Of course a lot has been lost, but also a lot has been preserved and we may not even be aware.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
this 'games will disappear' thing is just so damn deliberately deceptive! yes, you will no longer be able to purchase these games for these consoles! but, no, if you have, indeed, already purchased them, they will not 'disappear'!...

what's so challenging about speaking about this clearly?...
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,199
Personally, I'm all for the digital future. The days of clogging entire rooms with carts & discs* can stay in the past. Megacorps continually fuck it up for everyone though.

*Besides, it's not like physical games are immune to the ravages of time.

A mechanically pressed disc will last more years than I have left to live on earth, which is all I really care about. Hard drives and servers? Not so much.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,532
this 'games will disappear' thing is just so damn deliberately deceptive! yes, you will no longer be able to purchase these games for these consoles! but, no, if you have, indeed, already purchased them, they will not 'disappear'!...

what's so challenging about speaking about this clearly?...

There are millions of new gamers who buy into the industry every year who will never get to experience these games unless they have an older family member with an ancient console set up in their attic. For niche games this becomes especially limiting - as the older hardware dies or falls into disrepair, those games are essentially gone from memory forever (unless they've been ported or emulated).

This wasn't a concern when the game industry was 15 years old, now that it's getting closer to 50 some sense of archiving should be forward thinking.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,292
Please god. Some how make Tactics Ogre and Vagrant Story an Xbox exclusive. 🙏. Anything to get it out of sony and squares incompetent partnership.
 

Camwi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,375
That's just film. Television is much worse than this. A lot of TV programs made as recently as the 90s are just lost permanently.

The only reason more of it isnt permanently lost than it is, is because a woman named Marion Stokes realized this problem and ran VHS recordings of broadcast tv every day from 1979 until she died in 2012.

amp.wbur.org

'Recorder': Meet The Woman Who Recorded 70,000 Tapes Of American News

Marion Stokes recorded over 70,000 tapes of television from the late 1970s until her death in 2012.

The majority of the tv programs i grew up with are simply permanently inaccessible in any format. Cant be bought, rented, streamed or otherwise.
Holy shit, what a legend.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
I certainly hope so but part of me is looking at how Demon's Souls is a PS3 game, how the PS5 can't play those and how there's a Demon's Souls remake for £70 on the PS5 and thinking to myself that it's totally on-brand for Sony to simply not allow us to play older games on their newer consoles so they can sell them to us again instead at a premium price.

It's not that Sony can't implement backwards compatibility. I just don't think they want to. Why allow us to play the PS4 remasters of the Uncharted trilogy on the PS6, for example, if they can remake them instead and charge £80 for each game in it?
It's very clear in my opinion when Ryan says "who wants to play those games?" yet at the same time they keep re-releasing old titles, often with few improvements like God of War 3, the Jack and Daxter trilogy, Ico & SotC remaster, Uncharted, Sly Raccoon and you see other publishers with DMC collection, Silent Hill, Metal Gear. Additionally, they release the PlayStation Mini to capitalize on those classics... It's clear they know there are people who want to play old games, they are just choosing to maximize profit to ridiculous levels.

Investors are ruining the world. It's no longer about loving something so a company devotes itself to it and, of course, they need to make money in the process. You can still see that passion in most studios. But for Sony it seems to only be about the money now. You'd think the people who have been at PlayStation for so many years would have pride in the groundbreaking games they've made. Yoshida, Cerny, Ryan himself have been there forever, let alone so many folks in the studios. Instead, there's this narrow-minded mentality.

I would love to ask Phil Spencer: has Halo 3 being backwards compatible hurt the sales of the Master Chief Collection? I think he'd say no, but Jim Ryan would probably disagree.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,199
There are millions of new gamers who buy into the industry every year who will never get to experience these games unless they have an older family member with an ancient console set up in their attic.

Yes, BUT

This is true for the majority of games on most platforms. There are millions of new gamers every year that will never play a damned thing from a 2600, a Colecovision, an Intellivision, an NES, a Turbografx-16, a Sega Genesis, an Atari Jaguar, a 3d0, a Saturn, or any arcade machine built from 1979 to 2015.

unless there's a relative with a stack of old ass consoles, his or her own arcade, or a bigass PC loaded up with pirated content these games will never be seen or played.

Are there good games here? absolutely. Some legendary, can't miss stuff. But let's be real about this- the new gamers coming into the industry each year do not give a damn about any of it and are perfectly fine letting those games rot. The games are too old. They lack modern polish, QOL improvements, and multiplayer. There was an amusing Twitter/TikTok video making the rounds where a streamer was shocked and gobsmacked at the concept of "GAME OVER" when she ran out of lives.

Its just something that doesn't happen anymore and new gamers want none of that.

When talking about preserving these games- the preservation is going to largely be for the benefit of those that were around to experience them when they released. Even if a gamer didn't play that title per se they would be familiar enough with contemporary titles to get some enjoyment out of it.
 

dom

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,480
The reason for the store closing is definitely the payment handling and what's required to update it on the consoles themselves. Which is all the more reason why the old webstore should have never been shut down. Let the webstore remain as the means to purchase and shut the ones on the consoles down.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,199
Holy shit, what a legend.

She really is. That is some level of genius, craziness, and hardcore dedication that none of us can ever aspire to hit. That woman arranged her entire life around recording every bit of television she could for *thirty years* and never missed a day.

And the article points out that the storage on it was immaculate- usually when someone is obsessive enough to go through with this they aren't meticulous enough to preserve the archives.