Why? Why is that important?Link is a male and should remain as such. Zelda is a female and should remain as such. I wouldn't like to see it change.
Why? Why is that important?Link is a male and should remain as such. Zelda is a female and should remain as such. I wouldn't like to see it change.
In Zelda it should not be important since they are new characters every game. I think most characters should stay the same gender if they are part of a continued story though.
I find these kind of questions disingenuous in a thread speaking about how strongly they want to relate to a character of their gender/sexuality.
Its not weird at all and you are being disingenuous. The question is why should thsoe character stay that way presumably for ever in games forever. Why does that matter, why can't they be different. Why can't different people project themselves on different versions of the characters in different games.I find these kind of questions disingenuous in a thread speaking about how strongly they want to relate to a character of their gender/sexuality.
While I get where you're coming from in the Macro (There are plenty of games that exist with those preferences/gender norms and they're different incarnations each game) to ask someone of another gender or background why that sexuality or anything means anything to them seems (to me) hypocritical to the conversation. There are two conversations happening there. Representation versus existing iconography.
Someone can for the same reasons for other sexualities love that a character is straight and/or pair them with Zelda the same way people are allowed to pair Link with the FishyPrinceSidon. People project themselves onto characters often, and asking why it's a problem if it changes to not be their preference to be someone else's is a weird thing to ask imo.
You are asking a question you have an answer to already.Why can't different people project themselves on different versions of the characters in different games.
In order I don't. Its why I asked it, I am interested if he they have some reason they are willing to state. That explains their view point, because of currently I don't understand their view point, seems selfish.You are asking a question you have an answer to already.
That's the problem with this debate as it comes off as being rude when you're asking a question you already know the answer to because this thread exists. "Why do people need X type of character"?
The simple answer is representation. But when you go asking why other people need a character to be a certain way you become oblivious as to why they might want that preference or background on the existing character still because it doesn't fit what you desire.
The answer is more representation in general at the Macro level, but the question you're asking "Why does it matter that Link is straight or a dude(not that we have a lot to go off of on Link's character in general if you ignore like fanart)" is a bad question.
"Why can't people project themselves on different versions of the characters in different games" is something that can easily be said to people asking for a different type of character which is why that statement itself is flawed.
I'm all for more representation and lots of it, but asking why people wouldn't want a character changed to fit someone else's preferences is still a bad question with an answer you already have.
These topics get really combative really quick (and I understand the history of problems surrounding the topic) but if it matters to someone if a character is gay why can it then not matter if a character is straight?
Either that or please explain to me how I'm not understanding instead of simply stating that I just don't understand. If you know the question you asked and I don't, and my further elaboration is still off course, I'm more than happy to have it explained to me so that I avoid seeming insensitive.
Given the other posts in this thread I'm going to assume that text bias and text based format in general is going to lead to us talking around each other instead of to each other.In order I don't. Its why I asked it, I am interested if he they have some reason they are willing to state. That explains their view point, because of currently I don't understand their view point, seems selfish.
I'm not asking why a character needs to be that way, I am asking that why in story about reincarnation do they need to be that way infinitely. Why cant other people have other versions of the character they can identify with. I proposed a CaC , but that's just me.
You aren't gonna get any sympathy from me on that. I'm black I had to go through all media with most of my heroes not looking like me. It is not the same asking that to a black person as opposed to a character who looks like the white male standard. Its not the same, context of all history makes it not the same. That's it.
Maybe the point is to get them to think about why they actually think that way.
Because strait is the norm, and is in most media and having more representation in media would be cool. So having more types of sexual preferences and genders in media would be cool , and not the norm. When you are the privileged , equality feels like oppression and you are demonstrating it with your entire argument. If you ask that about heteronormative stuff, it is with the itent to exclude the from media. There is so much heteronormative content that to ask for more representation from the other side is not a risk of it not being represented in media.
Your argument comes off diengenious as fuck FYI and I don't believe you are being honest
I want to be clear here, if you are strait and i dentify with the plethora of strait characters. Cool. However the suggestion that characters need to be strait, infinitely in all interpretations is what i'm questioning.Given the other posts in this thread I'm going to assume that text bias and text based format in general is going to lead to us talking around each other instead of to each other.
The assumption I'm not being honest simply because of what I can assume is just an accusation could also result in me getting banned if I for example phrase something wrong and/or poorly and get reported or something.
Me having a discussion about a specific point in the micro does not effect that I feel more representation in the macro is good. I just felt like PART of your thinking was flawed. However I can see now that we disagree on fundamentally every level so I don't see that me bothering you further with my long winded responses will yield further understanding. Apologies for taking your time.
In the grand scheme of the Zelda games I don't think Link's sexual orientation has ever been spelled out, nor does it really matter. If when you play a Zelda game you prefer Link to be enby/genderqueer then that's what Link shall be. That's one of the best parts of Zelda, a lot of the story is there to be filled in by the player.
Japan culturally can't even get a grip on letting mothers have careers. Their powerhouse game developer is not about to embrace the spectrum of gender identity.
The creator very clearly just didn't want Link to be overtly masculine so that females could relate to him, too. It has nothing to do with gender identity or androgyny.
In Spanish at least, the thing is that all pronouns are gendered. There's no specific gender-neutral equivalent of "them". It translates as "Ellos" (male) or "Ellas"(female). However, when referring to a group of people of multiple genders, it defaults to male ("Ellos"), which would be the equivalent of referring to a non-binary person.I feel you on the new ones, I have the same sense. Not completely on board with the lack of a shift, though I don't think it'll be any more "big" than any other piece of language being adopted and used. Minorities that have always existed have adopted new terms and slangs over the past decade, and will continue to, especially if being a part of the minority is becoming more acceptable in the eyes of society.
It's initially surprising to hear that there isn't a consistent gender-nuetral term that NB people use within Spain and Germany, but then is it actually? If the language isn't there then what would they use as they become more confident vocally expressing themselves, so I do suspect that some outliers might take hold over time and move from the fringe to the mainstream. Which would work, considering the likelihood/timeline of a NB Link actually being implemented 😋
This is really insightful and interesting, thanks for taking the time to write it. Definitely with you on the clarification and revised issue, which is still definitely the case but less contrasting than I'd originally assumed.In Spanish at least, the thing is that all pronouns are gendered. There's no specific gender-neutral equivalent of "them". It translates as "Ellos" (male) or "Ellas"(female). However, when referring to a group of people of multiple genders, it defaults to male ("Ellos"), which would be the equivalent of referring to a non-binary person.
This is simply how the language works. The male pronoun also works as neutral, and that's how a potential non-binary Link would be referred to in a Spanish localization.
The REAL problem here is, that a lot of people will look at the male pronouns in the Spanish language and go "But look! In this version, Link is still male!"
Not attacking you here, but gender identity and sexual orientation are different things entirely. Gender identity is who you are and what you identify as, whereas sexual orientation is who you're attracted to.
But yes, Link is a cypher and you can project traits onto him if that's what you want to do.
LInk does the hero thing because he's the chosen one, anything else besides that is just added on and different depening on the game. And you pretending its more than that is delusional ... at best.. Link himself is going on any journey because link isn't a character he's vessel for you to do the thing. He's the LINK to you, its in his fucking name. So why not have that vessel be different from time to time.Your "Link coming out as non-binary in a future game" idea comes off as very tone-deaf. Zelda isn't a series where the protagonist embarks on a journey of self-discovery and/or self-affirmation, or where Link's perception of himself plays a part in the narrative besides his sense of duty as the legendary Hero - nor does it need to be. It would make a lot more sense to ask for a plotline like that in something like Xenoblade.
What's delusional to me is suggesting a plotline where Link comes out as non-binary in a fucking Zelda game.LInk does the hero thing because he's the chosen one, anything else besides that is just added on and different depening on the game. And you pretending its more than that is delusional ... at best.. Link himself is going on any journey because link isn't a character he's vessel for you to do the thing. He's the LINK to you, its in his fucking name. So why not have that vessel be different from time to time.
Like ya'll gonna go to the graves pretending this blond nothing ass doll is a character, he's not.
What's delusional to me is suggesting a plotline where Link comes out as non-binary in a fucking Zelda game.
Also, Link's name also has nothing to do with being a link to the player - it comes from a scrapped, more sci-fi concept for the original Zelda where the protagonist acted as a link between the past and future. He may not have as much of a personality as say, Mario, but he's still an established character that isn't just a blank slate.
1UP: The character Link, he obviously doesn't talk much, and whenever he does it's only through text and without voice. It seems very much that Link is a simple vessel for the player to identify with instead of a real personality; it's more that the player creates the character in his mind. Can you give us some insight into this? Why is Link such an interesting character to you?
Aonuma: When a player is playing a Zelda game, my desire is for the player to truly become Link -- that's why we named him Link, so the player is linked to the game and to the experience. Of course, the player can always change Link's name to their own name to further that notion should they want. But if we did give him a voice, that would go against the whole notion of Link being you, because Link's voice should really be your voice.
I mean, that's about as succinctly as I think it'll be putJapan culturally can't even get a grip on letting mothers have careers. Their powerhouse game developer is not about to embrace the spectrum of gender identity.
It's not that simple. Here's a quote from a more recent interview;
So we've found 3 instances where the meaning behind his name and the character he is shifts around when they feel they need or want to. BotW Link was very expressionless in cutscenes and most of his actual expressions and character come from you making him interact with the world, whether it being cooking, climbing, running, jumping, fighting, opening a chest, or taking a picture.It's not that simple. Here's a quote from a more recent interview;
"CODY: In the original Legend of Zelda, Link is named Link because he is a link to the player. However, in more recent Zelda games, Link has become more of a character in his own right. In The Wind Waker, his facial expressions were a large part of the game, and it was emotional to see him wave goodbye to his family on Outset Island. And in Skyward Sword, Link even has a relationship with Zelda. So do you feel that Link is becoming less of a link to the player and more of a character in his own right?
AONUMA: It's actually very tricky. I still want the player to feel as though they are Link; they are in Link's shoes doing all these actions. But, at the same time, he also needs to be a character in a game in a space. So what we've tried to do with him is make him a character that the player wants to be. Someone who's shoes you want to be in or that you want to act on behalf of. But it should also feel like it's the player. So we tried to make him appealing somehow; make him cute, or handsome, or cool. Something that draws the player in. Because otherwise, if he's just this blank slate, then there's no draw; there's nothing that makes you want to be put in his shoes and take on these challenges. So it's a balance, and it's certainly something that we struggle with and something that we'll probably continue to struggle with when making Zelda games."
What's delusional to me is suggesting a plotline where Link comes out as non-binary in a fucking Zelda game.
Also, Link's name also has nothing to do with being a link to the player - it comes from a scrapped, more sci-fi concept for the original Zelda where the protagonist acted as a link between the past and future. He may not have as much of a personality as say, Mario, but he's still an established character that isn't just a blank slate.
You know exactly what I meant. Despite the lore giving the dev team freedom to experiment with truly different characterizations for Link, the entire Zelda series has settled into the idea of all Links sharing the same basic appearance and character traits (white male, blonde-ish hair, elf ears, mostly silent, etc), despite not being exactly the same character in-universe. This may change in the future, but as of right now he's pretty much a set, iconic "avatar-but-not-really" character.Lmao, you aren't looking good in this debate.
Even the lore supports the idea of Link being different with each iteration.
You know exactly what I meant. Despite the lore giving the dev team freedom to experiment with truly different characterizations for Link, the entire Zelda series has settled into the idea of all Links sharing the same basic appearance and character traits (white male, blonde-ish hair, elf ears, mostly silent, etc), despite not being exactly the same character in-universe. This may change in the future, but as of right now he's pretty much a set, iconic "avatar-but-not-really" character.
In the grand scheme of the Zelda games I don't think Link's sexual orientation has ever been spelled out, nor does it really matter. If when you play a Zelda game you prefer Link to be enby/genderqueer then that's what Link shall be. That's one of the best parts of Zelda, a lot of the story is there to be filled in by the player.
They can make it like Frisk and Kris in Undertale/Deltarune, though that's more keeping them gender ambiguous that them being officially NBYou use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?
I'm genuinely not sure how you can't see the difference between having characters that are non-binary in things and just "pretend in your head". Come on.
Goes past the fact that we're relating "wears women's clothes" to being all that non-binary is for some reason, when it has nothing to do with it. The point was a response to the "Link has a very rigid image" section.
Mipha flat out hints at something traumatic happening to Link as a kid that turned him into essentially a mute and made him less lively than before. But the thing with Zelda is the idea that if you have a silent protagonist they don't have a character, which I disagree with. Maybe for the older games, but in the newer ones people react to Link. He has dialog choices that all seem to skew towards sarcasm. People have thoughts and ideas about him. I'm not saying he's a well developed character, but he's not a full on avatar.
It's like saying Gordon Freeman is an avatar because he doesn't speak. He's not well developed, but he has relations with NPCs regardless of how the player plays the game. I think there's a difference between a silent avatar and a silent character. An avatar's inferred personality might be solely based on the player's actions, while a character's can be inferred by the NPCs reactions
You're essentially saying representation needs to be justified, that representation should only exist when it's "thoughtful" or the focal point of a story. That's bullshit and a double standard. Queer characters and queer life need to just exist the way everyone else does. The necessity of works about queer culture does not mean that a work where queer characters exist needs to be about queer culture.One of my good friends is a lesbian whose partner also identified as a lesbian but after being married for a few years her partner realized he had gender dysmorphia and has partially transitioned (terminology can get confusing, hopefully everybody understands). One of the things she values is fiction that can properly portray the subculture of LGBTQ whether it's lebsians (because that's still what she considers herself) or the more broad spectrum - and she has talked about how important it is to have works of fiction created specifically about and for that subculture of people.
I say that OP because while I'm all for championing increasing diversity in fiction it is my belief that we should want thoughtful representations of the different minorities in America/The World and not shoehorning minority status onto existing characters where there is ambiguity - especially when it's not even ambiguous. Link is a male character who is androgynous, but the assertion that any androgynous character can be retrofitted to be non-binary or genderqueer or what have you is not just unfair to the intent of the creators, but also not a healthy representation of LGBTQ people and could easily undermine the point of better exposure if the message being sent is feminine men = gay or genderqueer. And it just sets a bad precedent.
Now, I say this understanding many feel any increased representation that isn't inherently offensive is a fundamentally positive step forward. Maybe I have a naive mindset when it comes to minority representation in fiction, but the idea of forcing new statuses onto existing characters to increase the amount of people a minority can say represents them in fiction just does not feel right. Like, I think it sends the wrong message.
Zelda should just have a character creator.
They have all these awesome races, let us play as them and create our own.
Give me Cucco Link or give me death.Zelda should just have a character creator.
They have all these awesome races, let us play as them and create our own.
Say "n-b", then people started writing it that way. Similar to Standard Oil breaking up and Standard Oil of New Jersey taking "Standard Oil", reading it as "SO" and making the brand "Esso". It's uncommon but not necessarily confusing.The really confusing thing for me is how "non-binary" got contracted to "nb" and then expanded to "enby" 🤔
Now I'm curious to know how this is handled in the German and Spanish versions of Undertale. People have raised in those languages there's no gender-neutral equivalent (or at least the one that's used is a binary word that's applied to be neutral). Which I can get as an issue with execution but you've raised an example that's seems to run the they/them route so keen to see how there. I think having a subtle nod affirming it or using pronouns is just as valid as having a deep backstory (which would be nice to have in other games too).They can make it like Frisk and Kris in Undertale/Deltarune, though that's more keeping them gender ambiguous that them being officially NB
(They're not given an explicit gender and are referred to as "they/them" allowing the player to imprint whatever they want onto them)
👏👏👏Tbh the most confusing thing to me in this thread is that people keep acting as if a nonbinary character *has* to have an arc about why they're nb, or about them coming out. As if the only thing a nb character could add is being genderqueer.
And while there should be more media that well portrays that, a character could also just be nonbinary. There's no explanation or coming out scene needed.
Tbh the most confusing thing to me in this thread is that people keep acting as if a nonbinary character *has* to have an arc about why they're nb, or about them coming out. As if the only thing a nb character could add is being genderqueer.
And while there should be more media that well portrays that, a character could also just be nonbinary. There's no explanation or coming out scene needed.
I'd appreciate some sort of "coming out as nonbinary" story beat in BOTW2, come to think of it.
You use they/them pronouns and have it be normal for the next iteration of Link. What's the issue in having that for the next iteration after BotW?
That post led to a subsequent multi-post discussion about languages, which even bled onto this page with the querying about how Undertale is handled in German or Spanish.That's undoable in many languages, especially those that are heavy gendered, like the Romance languages.
Implying it can be solved just by changing the pronouns to they/them is a very Anglo-centric approach.
That led to a subsequent multi-post discussion about languages.